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Third Party Wii Games
- Thread starter michaelpachter
- Start date
Aaron Strife
Banned
Truly, Epic Mickey will be the barometer for third party success on Wii
ShinNL
Member
What the hell, is that really Pachter? I had to check the link just to make sure you're not pulling my leg. Is he speaking out for others or actually thinks so himself too? Or is he actually more open-minded than most of us thought? I thought this was the same guy who said that people didn't want core games on the Wii because of title X and Y. Maybe he has some interesting early numbers..KJ_Wii said:
Don't worry, MH3 will tell us plenty.Aaron Strife said:
Version 3.0
Member
Eteric Rice said:
This guy sounds like a fanboy (a word I really, really hate to use) with his head stuck in the sand. The fact that this kind of attitude exists in the development community really shows how immature and unprofessional this industry still is.
There are some decent efforts coming down the line. If the Wii's 2nd year had been more like 2010 is looking to be (which I would still consider a fairly weak year), the 3rd party situation on the Wii wouldn't be what it is now. Instead, they've created an atmosphere where even the nice-looking batch of games we have on the way will probably underperform.
nincompoop
Banned
Funny thing is, this guy now runs a studio that makes casual web browser games.Eteric Rice said:
BlackNMild2k1
Member
michaelpachter said:
If 3rd parties wanna know how they can do better on the Wii then first they need to know what they did wrong on the Wii.
Pretend you aren't a forum regular that constantly checks for gaming news and reviews and just wanted to go out and get a new game. Lets pretend that one of the following pics is a shelf in a store that happens to sell games.
Activision | Ubisoft | THQ | Konami
Now close your eyes and touch the screen. Are you happy with the game your finger landed on? try again.... and again.... and again. How many tries did it take to get something you would like? How many tries did it take after that to get something that you liked?
Most people, after the first few tries and being disappointed, are gonna remember to avoid the maker of that game next time they're looking for something. After about 2-3 disappointing picks, I'm pretty sure I would stop looking for just anything and start focusing on where I didn't get constantly burned.
Now look at what Nintendo was offering: Nintendo
How many times could I blindly pick a game that I would be entertained with and generally satisfied with my purchase?
To basically sum it up.....
tl:dr version;
Stop releasing so much crap and actually advertise the stuff that is worth the investment.
Focus on quality and stop pushing for quantity.
edit: original source of pics: NWR 3rd Party Wall of Shame
Eteric Rice
Member
nincompoop said:
Wow, that's pretty ironic...
RedHerring
Neo Member
BlackNMild2k1 said:
I agree with the point generally that third parties should be pushing quality rather than quantity, but do you really think that people not involved with games take notice of the publisher though? Franchises, I would argue, in the public's mind, operate independently of the company publishing/developing it. I don't go to see a couple of crappy films distributed by Warner Bros. and then apply that logic when choosing a film to see at the cinema. Mario games are Mario. The franchise has a high quality standard, and Nintendo's other franchises don't affect that in the majority of the public. You posted the picture of Activision's Wii output with the implication that the majority of it is pretty poor, so how do you explain the huge success of Guitar Hero 3?
cosmicblizzard
Banned
nincompoop said:
Doesn't really sound like we should care about his opinion at all then. Not only is he a hypocritical fanboy but he doesn't even have anything to do with consoles.
BishopLamont
Banned
GH3 was relatively near the start of the Wii's life and was released at the peak of the series' popularity, both of which was way before the dreaded "shove as much shit as you can out" mentally really kicked in.RedHerring said:
BlackNMild2k1 said:
Yep, that´s the difference. Its funny: i didnt think about Activision as THE crap pusher on the wii.
RedHerring said:
They dont care about publisher name, Einstein. In fact most of them dont even know there´s a publishers name on the cover. That´s not the point of the walls
The point is: They just bought some wii games. Most of em were crap (because of the amout of crap 3rd party publishers shoved at the wii - proved by the above walls of shame). They dont want to buy wii games anymore. Oh, excecpt those Mario and "Wii-stuff" games! These are cool!
EDIT: How to solve this problem? Consumers right now perceive your products as "shit". You need to change the consumer´s perception = That´s why you have advertising
Apologies if this has been posted yet, but this is a very, very good article on the subject http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/third-party-puzzle-article
Why are you being such a dick? The point made was that "publishers X, Y and Z are publishing crap and so people are learning to avoid publishers X, Y and Z" which to me is a highly dubious way of characterizing the situation.cacildo said:
I think people are indeed getting burnt by a lot of crap, but also I think to truly analyze the situation, you kind of need to take the party games out of the equation. People are buying lots of silly crappy party games, but they aren't really being "burnt" by them that much. I'd say a majority of people are smart enough to know that some plastic looking party game collection is going to turn out fairly craptastic, but I don't think the majority particularly minds either. And when you remove all the third-party minigame collections from the picture, then I think a clearer story is told in terms of expectation vs. quality vs. sales.
(And the same equation applies to the other consoles/portables. Games that don't hide their crappiness are published on and purchased for all consoles.)
But yeah, bottom line, I think games that publishers are releasing that are intended to be high quality, or are masquerading as high quality, indeed are by-and-large of relatively low quality, and the very few games that are great or excellent -- anomalously -- are so bizarre/violent/niche, or are simply not advertised at all, that they do completely nothing to rescue consumer perceptions.
I took the liberty to put some ratings on each game, at least for the Activision Wall of Shame, by adding some small stamps.
Now you can more easily see which games are good and which games are not.
Activision Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
(it seems Tinypic resizes the image. Does anybody knows a better image host?)
Now you can more easily see which games are good and which games are not.
Activision Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
(it seems Tinypic resizes the image. Does anybody knows a better image host?)
Aaron Strife said:
It has to be Monster Hunter 3, assuming it gets some advertising. A barometer for 3rd parties can't be one of the biggest mascots in the world because it's just not something other 3rd parties can do. I guess Epic Mickey, depending on the quality, will tell if it's POSSIBLE for a core game without mario can be a huge hit.
BowieZ said:
Hey, sorry. That´s the difference between listening and reading. Were i talking the guy would know that i said that as a friendly dick
Can i change my screen name to friendly dick at this point?
EDIT: i tried to argue, but really, i wasnt adding almost anything. Ill make the other comment in the next post.
ShinNL
Member
You know, your logic was going somewhere I could use cacildo, then you decided to edit it away making it harder for me xD
I'd like to add that all these wall of shames doesn't necessarily means that people are gonna check who publishes what (even I never check for the publisher's name), but because of the amount of crap (I mean seriously, if you bought one of those crap games you would feel ripped off, imagine buying several) they release, people pretty much don't actively follow the Wii releases anymore. It's not like they come at such a fast rate that you might miss a good release. This doesn't mean people don't want good games, it just means they use the Wii differently.
So good releases like No More Heroes 2 won't have amazing launches, but I bet it will have better legs than usual releases on other consoles (different kind of graphs). This is also the reason not to release sequel after sequel, because Wii owners will only check from time to time (not the other way around, rushing to the store because the publisher decides when to release a good game) when there are good games. If you see 5 types of the same game, you'll obviously only pick the best one.
This also explains why some Wii's are literally collecting dusts. There are hardly enough good releases for an active gamer.
For publishers this means there's a gold mine out there: release a good game and you'll sell easily, since you're competing with crap games. And any publisher should look at their own wall of shame and wake up. If they had any Japanese mentality they would be performing seppukus right now.
I'd like to add that all these wall of shames doesn't necessarily means that people are gonna check who publishes what (even I never check for the publisher's name), but because of the amount of crap (I mean seriously, if you bought one of those crap games you would feel ripped off, imagine buying several) they release, people pretty much don't actively follow the Wii releases anymore. It's not like they come at such a fast rate that you might miss a good release. This doesn't mean people don't want good games, it just means they use the Wii differently.
So good releases like No More Heroes 2 won't have amazing launches, but I bet it will have better legs than usual releases on other consoles (different kind of graphs). This is also the reason not to release sequel after sequel, because Wii owners will only check from time to time (not the other way around, rushing to the store because the publisher decides when to release a good game) when there are good games. If you see 5 types of the same game, you'll obviously only pick the best one.
This also explains why some Wii's are literally collecting dusts. There are hardly enough good releases for an active gamer.
For publishers this means there's a gold mine out there: release a good game and you'll sell easily, since you're competing with crap games. And any publisher should look at their own wall of shame and wake up. If they had any Japanese mentality they would be performing seppukus right now.
Soneet said:
You see, that´s why i deleted my comment: i knew somebody could do better. I was just running in circles.
There´s just two things to add:
1)
Soneet said:
True, but they also needs MARKETING EFFORT for people to know that, among the sea of crappy wii games, there´s this new one that is really really good.
Without advertising any new game can just make like Rob Thomas and forget about it
2) Third parties are lying to us.
yeah yeah, i know, third parties always lie. Every company lies. But third parties on wii are taking this to the next level.
Do people really think that 3rd parties dont know that they are releasing crappy games?
And that that´s why they dont sell? And that they dont know this situation is hurting the whole wii (and gaming) scenario?
Of course they know all this.
But they keep lying, and PR people from Capcom Activision Ubisoft Sega keep saying they´re releasing "amazing software"
They´re not. They´re just lying.
We just dont know why
And its funny: why dont Michael Patcher himself never mentions that 3rd parties are lying?
ShinNL
Member
Hey, don't hate on Capcom.
PS. I don't believe the marketing stuff that everyone is spousing lately on these forums. Marketing helps, but it's not decisive. You don't need a massive marketing budget. And considering the amount of shovelware, it's easy to see that word-of-mouth might be just plenty to sell a game. Marketing is just a booster to help in the beginning, but for most games it's anti-legs, because hype reduces drastically after marketing stops, unlike word-of-mouth. I prefer using most of the budget in the development than using a lot of the budget for marketing (lowering the budget of the game itself). I couldn't care less about others buying games, I want my games to be high quality. Games like Murasama and No More Heroes not getting advertisement? I don't blame them. They're pretty much in their own genre's anyway with nothing competing, thus those same people who check from time to time I've talked about earlier will pick them up eventually.
The Wii isn't about quick results. That logic is what caused the amount of shovelware in the first place. It's a long term business.
PS. I don't believe the marketing stuff that everyone is spousing lately on these forums. Marketing helps, but it's not decisive. You don't need a massive marketing budget. And considering the amount of shovelware, it's easy to see that word-of-mouth might be just plenty to sell a game. Marketing is just a booster to help in the beginning, but for most games it's anti-legs, because hype reduces drastically after marketing stops, unlike word-of-mouth. I prefer using most of the budget in the development than using a lot of the budget for marketing (lowering the budget of the game itself). I couldn't care less about others buying games, I want my games to be high quality. Games like Murasama and No More Heroes not getting advertisement? I don't blame them. They're pretty much in their own genre's anyway with nothing competing, thus those same people who check from time to time I've talked about earlier will pick them up eventually.
The Wii isn't about quick results. That logic is what caused the amount of shovelware in the first place. It's a long term business.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
cacildo said:
Jurassic: The Hunted really isn't shit. Neither is the original Kung Fu Panda game. Neither is Marvel Ultimate Alliance. Neither are GHWT or GHA; especially not GHWT which was noted for being an incredibly good Wii port. I'm not really sure why you think Band Hero is shit either.
You can easily make the same point without just inventing crap.
Sadist said:
Yeah, kinda! He forgot the "lying" part.
because, really, it IS one of the most annoying things when, after all this BARRAGE of SHITTY GAMES 3rd parties throw on us, the director of Dead Space extraction comes around and says "Yeah, you know, that´s nintendo´s fault that our crappy on rails game didnt sell like we wish."
Jesus Christ, these guys are LYING TO OUR FACES. And nobody have the guts to point it.
This kind of thing really gets me mad. That´s why i liked so much the walls of shame.
Stumpokapow said:
Jurassic the hunted
Kung Fu Panda
Marvel Ultuimate Aliance
Well then, buy yourself a copy of each and be happy! And i mean the Wii versions, not the pretty HD ones. Me and the rest of the world? No thank you.
The guitar hero games ended with the Shit stamp because of the milking cow effect. They were all 2009 releases, and it was just too much for a single year.
Really, all these Guitar Hero games in one year is a shitty move even for the HD twins.
I dont like Metallica, but i can see the songs could at least make something new in the Guitar Hero model. That´s why the OK stamp
I didnt played all of em, but Guitar Hero 5 got the best scores and best overall word of mouth. I got a copy, and the set list is almost not insulting. Got away with an OK
Guitar Hero Aerosmith? Well, im an Aerosmith fan, but the game was.... naaaaahhhhh..
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Just what was it that launched the mythology that third parties can't compete with Nintendo on their own system? This seems like an obvious question but I'm really thinking now. Because back in the day, as in the 8-bit and 16-bit era, I don't recall this stigma among game makers or game players. Third-parties were big on the NES and SNES, or so it seemed, and Nintendo's games, while excellent, didn't outshine the many great third party titles.
So what's the official industry excuse? Was it the N64? That's an interesting thought in itself, since the N64 is where the industry "broke" with Nintendo due to the media format. They also didn't put their biggest and best games on the N64. Is that where this all started? Nintendo's games selling better on that platform because third parties refused to step up to the plate? (Then blamed it on Nintendo?)
So what's the official industry excuse? Was it the N64? That's an interesting thought in itself, since the N64 is where the industry "broke" with Nintendo due to the media format. They also didn't put their biggest and best games on the N64. Is that where this all started? Nintendo's games selling better on that platform because third parties refused to step up to the plate? (Then blamed it on Nintendo?)
AceBandage
Banned
Kaijima said:
Third party laziness, mostly.
leroy hacker
Member
Kaijima said:
As far I remember the idea that third party games don't sell on Nintendo systems only started being widely talked about around 2003-2004. Absolutely no one ever said that in the N64 era, ever. The knock was that the N64 didn't have third party games, not that they didn't sell (in fact I believe Acclaim had many hits) and the same was true for the Gamecube. No one ever said third party games shouldn't be on those systems because Nintendo consumers wouldn't buy them, people(both fans and developers) said they shouldn't be on them because those systems had smaller install bases or the wrong hardware capabilities(e.g. carts or sub-dvd optical discs).
As far as I can tell the primary empirical basis for this idea was Gamecube sales of western multiplatform titles, but typically foolish commentators and analysts have decided it is a universal truth about all third party games on all Nintendo systems by ignoring all details about the historical record and deciding that consumer sales results and the relative unprofitability of selling games on cartridges are the same phenomenon. Historical revisionism regarding Nintendo is simply rampant in this industry.
Easystride
Member
I would kill for that. And of course I need DQX, too.P90 said:
Those expecting Monster Hunter Tri to be some savior of Wii third party games are setting themselves up for disapointment. People weren't pegging Monster Hunter Freedom Unite as some game that'll save the PSP's software sales in the US. That franchise will never be as big as it is in Japan anywhere else unless a huge make over occurs, and Tri isn't that.
EDIT-Bizzaro that someone else, and myself posted the same thing about Monster Hunter at the same time.
EDIT-Bizzaro that someone else, and myself posted the same thing about Monster Hunter at the same time.
Unfortunately, one kinda depends on the other. If people don't buy games, whether good or bad quality, there simply won't be many good quality games any more.Soneet said:
Unless you expect/hope society to evolve into a utopia where there's no such thing as business and everyone produces consumables out of the goodness of their hearts.
Ok, so here it is: All 4 publishers walls of shame with ratings
Please notice that the ratings applied at each game express only my own opinion. The problem lies in the fact that a lot of people share this same opinion, and that these games really suck and most of em are just lazy ports or mini games collections, and third parties fucked the wii, yadda yadda yadda
Activision Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
THQ Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Konami Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Ubisoft Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Konami´s wall took a hit because i cant say anything about the soccer games. And there´s one game, anything wheeler, that i never ever heard anything about.
And the sad fact is that even with a lazy approach and blaming Nintendo and its installed base for everything, Ubisoft got away with the best results: of all 36 Ubisoft Wii releases, 6 can be considered "good" games.
Sad sad sad 3rd party wii support.
Please notice that the ratings applied at each game express only my own opinion. The problem lies in the fact that a lot of people share this same opinion, and that these games really suck and most of em are just lazy ports or mini games collections, and third parties fucked the wii, yadda yadda yadda
Activision Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
THQ Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Konami Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Ubisoft Wall of Shame - Now with ratings
Konami´s wall took a hit because i cant say anything about the soccer games. And there´s one game, anything wheeler, that i never ever heard anything about.
And the sad fact is that even with a lazy approach and blaming Nintendo and its installed base for everything, Ubisoft got away with the best results: of all 36 Ubisoft Wii releases, 6 can be considered "good" games.
Sad sad sad 3rd party wii support.
VGChampion
Member
Has anyone seen this user's channel? I wrote it off at first because of a few reasons but I started watching them when I was bored and they aren't bad at all. He showcases a lot of games I've never even seen footage of or heard of.
http://www.youtube.com/user/wiiviewr
http://www.youtube.com/user/wiiviewr
cacildo said:
You know, there's enough crap from these publishers that you don't have to be overly harsh on decent games. Dewy's Adventure wasn't terrible. And a few hat stump pointed out, as well. It just dilutes your point for no reason and makes it look like you don't know what your talking about.
Also, those PES Wii games should have "Amazing" stamped on them.
legend166 said:
Cmon, Elebits is a nice game. But dewy´s is the wrong game at the wrong time. I know people mean the best with it, but it was just too cute to be taken seriously and too hard for kids to dig it. It was the game nobody wanted (and never got anywhere). That´s why the "shit" stamp. I know it sounds a little bit hard on the little guy, but... cmon, you know what we´re taking as wii owners here!
I heard the PES games are great soccer games, but im not the soccer guy. I feel it was best to leave it alone than give an opinion that wasnt mine.
HYDE said:
We should ask my personal hero BlackNMild2k1
He was the guy who came with the walls (and i imagine it was his idea). Check above
I just thought that the whole thing was amazing and added the ratings (and everybody hated)
Hope he gets to do Capcom and Sega.
EDIT: What about EA? I personally think Dead Space extraction deserves a beautiful SHIT stamp.
HYDE
Banned
cacildo said:
I just realized if you go to BlackNmild2k1's post he has a link which offers more company's walls of shame. It has EA also.
Edit: it actually has Capcom, Sega, EA, and Namco (among others).
The only one it didn't have was Tecmo.
I will edit again for a list of the Tecmo Wii releases.
I think Tecmo only has these four (correct me if I am wrong) Rygar, Spray, Super Swing Golf 1 and 2.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Capcom and SEGA's don't look bad at all, actually. You'll probably cover them with "shit" stamps, but you can't account for some people's tastes.cacildo said:
HYDE said:
The thread is really amazing! Everybody should read this! In fact im glad that people took the time to do it. Sometimes i really feel like im screaming alone against all this shit
If Rygar, Spray, Super Swing golf 1 and 2 are the only wii games published by Tecmo they really no better than any other publisher.
HYDE said:
Tecmo also released Family Fun Football (was supposed to be a Tecmo Bowl game, but they decided to give it the generic Wii Sport treatment).
Family Fun Football
Segata Sanshiro said:
Sega has some good games and some crappy games. Overall i think they have the most balanced release record.
People complain about The Conduit but it is better than 95% of all wii releases. But unfortunally Sega has a pile of Sonic games
Capcom AT LEAST had the decency to not release a pile of shovelware. However, there´s Chop till you drop and the amazing "The wii cant handle more than 5 zombies per screen" statement.
Seriously: that´s one of the biggest lies of this generation. Not even Peter Molyneux can beat that