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[velvet_nitemare]

I don't think anyone is saying that specifically.

I think it's more like this: What third parties are doing (collectively) isn't working financially, especially compared to Nintendo's parallel astronomical success. And what they are doing, by and large, is big budget, A-team, well advertised core games on PS360, and shovelware, casual, cheap C-team outsouced spin-offs on Wii.

So there's a really obvious 'other thing' to try: Big budget, A-team, well advertised core games on the Wii. So far there has been ONE by ONE third party in ONE region. Sold a million.

They could also try loads shovelware, casual, cheap C-team outsouced spin-offs on PS360, that hasn't been tried yet either.

MH3 isn't at a million yet, close though. And Tales of Graces did poorly.

 

[KamenSenshi]

It's interesting how nobody ever seems to discuss how third party games on any system can't touch Wii first party sales.

I mean, CoD4 had impressive sales, but it couldn't even dream of touching MKWii.

And in regard to first parties (if you don't want to compare 1st to 3rd); Microsoft and Sony should be looking into how their efforts can get to those levels. You wonder why it's "Wii's third party compared to 360/PS3 third party sales are terrible" but the reverse "Wii first/second party compared to 360/PS3 first/second party sales are amazing" is never discussed.
Shouldn't gamers on the other side of the coin be wondering what their respective 1st/2nd parties should be doing to try and meet Nintendo? They rely almost too much on third party support, which in my opinion, is far more dangerous than relying too much on 1st party.

you are right that the reverse is never mentioned. it is dangerous to depend largely on 3rd parties to make system sellers, exclusive or not. we can look at sony for a good/decent example. most of the big games that people normally tie to sony are/were not "sony" made. foe a long time games like ff, tomb raider, or gta were thought of as playstation games even though gta showed up on xbox later.

microsoft has no big first party that amounts to anything. they mainly rely on all 3rd party support. sure they have left over bungie game(s), guilty spark or whatever the new team is called, rare who hasnt had a hit in forever and is relegated to being their 2nd rate knockoff nintendo, and lionhead i believe. halo series being the only big thing that is "created" by microsoft.

sony does have gt and since the beginning of this gen they have wisened up and started trying to build their 1st party, but at the moment while they get great critical acclaim like lbp it hasnt translated into sales.

short versioneople say they cant compete with nintendo so they dont try and cant be compared. not saying that sony doesnt try just that its easier for nintendo to be downplayed because they can get away without 3rd parties for the most part, whereas the other two are dependent on 3rd parties. without them the biggest games would be halo and gt.

 

[Indyana]

It's probably worth discussing different types of risk. For example, I would distinguish between risk of game design (that is, untested or unproven mechanics) and a risk of investment (that is, a risk of large financial resources). Typically, a large risk of one kind necessitates a small risk of the other: companies produce risky ideas at a small financial cost, or make big, risky financial investments with very well established game mechanics. This is true not only in gaming, but in any industry, although particularly so in entertainment fields.

I think most major third parties are quite willing to take a large financial risk: in fact, it's their specialty. Only a dozen, perhaps a score of publishers are capable of producing 25M+ production games, so they are in a unique position to push them. As a consequence, they are less likely to produce high risk games in terms of game mechanics. This would be true on any platform: I don't think they're being particularly creative on any system. Most PS3/360 games play it quite safe, too.

This is another reason why the PSP support without porting to the Wii is so strange.

I can understand that Sony lowered the risk to make a PSP game, but why didn’t they port to the Wii? The investment would have been really small and their risk would be smaller. The Wii versions could have sold really bad and made profits at the same time.

It's amazing that despite constant closings, negative financial reports, layoffs and more layoffs very few people seem to get this.

Financially the industry as a whole is in bad shape, and Nintendo is one of the few bright spots. Financially third party publishers are in poor shape. These are just simple facts.

Really the question should not be "what should third party publishers do on the Wii?" but rather "what should third party publishers do, period?" Or even "what should publishers do, period?" Because very few of them are making money.

And it's not like the failures are small companies making niche products. Even companies that pursue the "blockbuster AAA title" and succeed are failing. Companies like EA and Take Two put out massive hits and still post poor overall results.

I think the reason why the focus is on what should the third parties do on the Wii and the HD is blamed for their problems, is because third parties are doing what they know best in the HD twins and ignoring / shitting the Wii.

It's quite difficult to imagine that with the different supports they have given to the Wii and PS360, their financial problems are not coming from the HD and that they can magically change that doing the same thing that put them into red.

 

[D.Lo]

MH3 isn't at a million yet, close though. And Tales of Graces did poorly.

Close enough, crushed much higher budget fare like MGS4 and others. Tales has been killed with console hopping, spamming a billion releases, and the oft-talked about lack of 'base building' on the Wii. So yeah Namco gave it a bit of a go,but too little, too late, and with a damaged brand. Capcom is still the only company to put a genuine, high effort, flagship sequel to a strong brand on the Wii.

 

[Agnates]

Close enough, crushed much higher budget fare like MGS4 and others. Tales has been killed with console hopping, spamming a billion releases, and the oft-talked about lack of 'base building' on the Wii. So yeah Namco gave it a bit of a go,but too little, too late, and with a damaged brand. Capcom is still the only company to put a genuine, high effort, flagship sequel to a strong brand on the Wii.

I wouldn't dismiss ToG just yet, let's see if they do any meaningful push for it in the West. Hopefully not next to FFXIII this time. Maybe the other RPG announcements will make them give it a shot.

 

[donny2112]

I wouldn't dismiss ToG just yet, let's see if they do any meaningful push for it in the West.

No. Just no. You did not just try to say that Western sales could save a Tales game. Symphonia on GCN is the best selling Tales game in the U.S., and it was a huge aberration. After that, you're looking at very sub-200K levels.

 

[Agnates]

If it's one of the better selling Tales in NA/EU then it won't be far behind the other Tales games will it? What's the number now and how much less is that than the average Tales game? Last I checked it didn't seem that horrible to me. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[Jeels]

No. Just no. You did not just try to say that Western sales could save a Tales game. Symphonia on GCN is the best selling Tales game in the U.S., and it was a huge aberration. After that, you're looking at very sub-200K levels.

How are Symphonia Western sales an aberration? I'm pretty sure it did over 200K, and was pretty much the premiere Game cube RPG when people asked for recommendations and stuff.

 

[sphinx]

somebody please tell me,

Did pachter just open a thread only to never ever appear again, leaving no comment whatsoever?

Shame on you pachter. If you are gonna mingle, then freaking do it.

EDIT= sorry, I stand corrected, Pachter did post after the initial Post.

 

[Massa]

somebody please tell me,

Did pachter just open a thread only to never ever appear again, leaving no comment whatsoever?

Shame on you pachter. If you are gonna mingle, then freaking do it.

He's commented, despite being attacked by a few posters.

 

[donny2112]

How are Symphonia Western sales an aberration? I'm pretty sure it did over 200K,

That's the aberration.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Close enough, crushed much higher budget fare like MGS4 and others. Tales has been killed with console hopping, spamming a billion releases, and the oft-talked about lack of 'base building' on the Wii. So yeah Namco gave it a bit of a go,but too little, too late, and with a damaged brand. Capcom is still the only company to put a genuine, high effort, flagship sequel to a strong brand on the Wii.

The last couple hundred thousand sales of MH3 have been on the back of massive clearance pricing. It sold well, and I don't mean to take away from that, but a lot of those sales have come from being priced at 2000 yen in the bargain bins of every major retailer.

 

[Dalthien]

The last couple hundred thousand sales of MH3 have been on the back of massive clearance pricing. It sold well, and I don't mean to take away from that, but a lot of those sales have come from being priced at 2000 yen in the bargain bins of every major retailer.

Not to dispute your point, but isn't MH a series that typically racks up the bulk of its sales at discount prices anyway.

 

[sphinx]

The last couple hundred thousand sales of MH3 have been on the back of massive clearance pricing. It sold well, and I don't mean to take away from that, but a lot of those sales have come from being priced at 2000 yen in the bargain bins of every major retailer.

what's the point here? Selling at a discount price means you were lucky that there was still an untapped market based on price point for your game. There are many games that are never bought even when put at US $9.99 prices in bargain bins.

You make it sound like retailers had to give them away when they are in fact charging money for them and peope are buying them. Closing in to the million, Capcom surely recouped the costs of the game long ago and I am sure they are pleased to see the game selling some extra units, regardless of circumstances.

I am sure there are retailers that would love to sell 360 japanese games at ANY price just to get rid of inventory.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Not to dispute your point, but isn't MH a series that typically racks up the bulk of its sales at discount prices anyway.

It racks up a lot of sales after the "Greatest Hits" version is released, yes. Being forced into the clearance bins just to move the first shipment is a new achievement for the series, though.

 

[donny2112]

The last couple hundred thousand sales of MH3 have been on the back of massive clearance pricing.

So, it's been selling primarily due to massive clearance pricing since week 4?

Edit:
More to the point, it probably would've easily hit the lower 900s without clearancing, if they had sent the appropriate ratios of bundles vs. standalones, as it reached 900K at week 10.

 

[Dalthien]

It racks up a lot of sales after the "Greatest Hits" version is released, yes. Being forced into the clearance bins just to move the first shipment is a new achievement for the series, though.

I was just having fun with your comment. But honestly, I'm sure Capcom is pleased to have been able to get retailers to pick up those extra copies at full price, instead of having to wait for a "Best Price" release to sell those same copies to retailers for a fraction of the price.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

what's the point here? Selling at a discount price means you were lucky that there was still an untapped market based on price point for your game. There are many games that are never bought even when put at US $9.99 prices in bargain bins.

You make it sound like retailers had to give them away when they are in fact charging money for them and peope are buying them. Closing in to the million, Capcom surely recouped the costs of the game long ago and I am sure they are pleased to see the game selling some extra units, regardless of circumstances.

I am sure there are retailers that would love to sell 360 japanese games at ANY price just to get rid of inventory.

Oh, they do. But X360 games are typically very conservatively ordered and thus you rarely see mountains of copies of anything 360 in the bargain bins because they never had mountains of them to begin with.

Retailers got burned hard on Monster Hunter Tri. There is no disputing that. The next Monster Hunter game on the Wii will certainly not get a million-unit first shipment.

 

[Agnates]

It racks up a lot of sales after the "Greatest Hits" version is released, yes. Being forced into the clearance bins just to move the first shipment is a new achievement for the series, though.

Maybe those didn't have overshipping issues? And there are other achievements for Tri when it comes to the home versions of the franchise

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

So, it's been selling primarily due to massive clearance pricing since week 4?

Edit:
More to the point, it probably would've easily hit the lower 900s without clearancing, if they had sent the appropriate ratios of bundles vs. standalones, as it reached 900K at week 10.

It's hard to say what would have happened, because it isn't what happened. And yes, MH3 has had its price slashed at various retailers since week 4.

 

[donny2112]

Being forced into the clearance bins just to move the first shipment is a new achievement for the series, though.

To go back to an older point, this is why MH3 is not a pure positive for third-party sales on Wii. If it had had a 900K first shipment, it would've easily gotten through that and maybe even gotten a small second shipment. As it stands, it has this stigma of needing to be clearance to get through its first 1 million shipment.

Same thing with PS3 games that sold "good for the PS3" but were downturns for the series overall. They may be good from most perspectives and maybe even "successful," but they weren't indisputable positives (with Tales of Vesperia probably being an exception).

And yes, MH3 has had its price slashed at various retailers since week 4.

Of the standalone while some places were sold out of the bundles. Also, I'm not disputing that some versions were slashed early on. I'm disputing that the last 200K of sales were on the backs of such slashings.

 

[Dalthien]

It's hard to say what would have happened, because it isn't what happened. And yes, MH3 has had its price slashed at various retailers since week 4.

Well, retailers were dumb. What are you going to do? It's not like a publisher is going to say, "No, we won't sell you that many."

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Well, retailers were dumb. What are you going to do? It's not like a publisher is going to say, "No, we won't sell you that many."

Yes, well, as Donny said, this kind of throws an asterisk next to the sales success of the game.

It's almost certain that if they do another big MH release on the Wii, retailers are going to be far more conservative in their orders, which can have a negative impact on sales if they don't have enough. Final Fantasy XIII shows you how fast the used market in Japan can devour a game whole.

 

[Dalthien]

It's almost certain that if they do another big MH release on the Wii, retailers are going to be far more conservative in their orders, which can have a negative impact on sales if they don't have enough.

So? They should have been more conservative in their orders this time anyway. If anything, they will base their initial orders on what they actually sold the first couple weeks this time. I don't see the problem.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

So? They should have been more conservative in their orders this time anyway. If anything, they will base their initial orders on what they actually sold the first couple weeks this time. I don't see the problem.

Because if you order low, you get a Strange Journey situation, where the game sells far less than its potential because the used shops have copies while the new shops are waiting for shipment #2.

 

[matmanx1]

I'm just reiterating here but as a gamer who owns a Wii, PC and HD consoles here's what I want and what would actually cause me to buy more software for it: Games I actually want to play!

Sure the "casual" or expanded audience has been buying software for the Wii but we've already seen what they are buying and it tends to be pretty predictable. Where Publishers are really missing the boat, however, is in selling to core gamers like myself who tend to spend alot of money on their gaming habits and would definitely buy software on the Wii (or whatever platform it appeared on) if it interested them.

Where's my JRPG's? Where's my WRPG's? Where's my slick, sexy action game? (Muramasa is awesome but VERY Japanese and got almost no advertising) Where's my AAA co-op and online enabled shooters? Honestly, if you are talking hardcore gamers, there are entire genres of games that are completely missing from the Wii lineup.

There are definitely some under appreciated gems on the system but as Opiate said without the big named AAA Umbrella Games to prop them up they will continue to be under appreciated and unnoticed.

 

[schuelma]

Because if you order low, you get a Strange Journey situation, where the game sells far less than its potential because the used shops have copies while the new shops are waiting for shipment #2.

MH 3G or whatever its called could get half as many copies shipped in its first week and still be able to sell 500K+ in its first week..I really doubt we'd see much of a supply problem assuming Capcom has more supply ready to go.

I certainly get your point, but I really don't see it being much of a problem.

 

[Dalthien]

Because if you order low, you get a Strange Journey situation, where the game sells far less than its potential because the used shops have copies while the new shops are waiting for shipment #2.

I should modify my previous statement to say that I don't see a big problem.

Certainly, things didn't work out in an ideal manner. But this is the route Capcom wanted to go. There were reports that Capcom put some pressure on retailers to order big, and the retailers were dumb enough to buy into it. But Capcom was happy to get the money upfront rather than have to wait for a "Best Price" release a year down the road and sell those same 100k units at a steep discount.

As for the next release, unless retail is really stupid, they now know exactly how many copies they sold of MH3 in the first 2 or 3 weeks, so it seems highly likely that they have a pretty good baseline to use for the next release. They had no such baseline coming off the huge growth of the series on handhelds.

If they decide to severely undershoot their orders next time (like 400k first week or something - assuming that there ever is a MH4 on the Wii), then it is up to Capcom to have faith in their product and make sure that they have extra shipments already in their distributors' hands so that retail can get their needed followup shipments immediately.

It doesn't need to be a problem.

 

[Indyana]

Because if you order low, you get a Strange Journey situation, where the game sells far less than its potential because the used shops have copies while the new shops are waiting for shipment #2.

Wouldn't the free online trial give more time to send a second shipment?

 

[schuelma]

As for the next release, unless retail is really stupid, they now know exactly how many copies they sold of MH3 in the first 2 or 3 weeks, so it seems highly likely that they have a pretty good baseline to use for the next release. They had no such baseline coming off the huge growth of the series on handhelds.
.

Yeah. I think MH Tri sold through 700K+ in its first 9 days, so I really can't imagine retailers ordering that much less initially.

 

[Faxanadu]

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[KJ_Wii]

Maybe Pachter was taking some of the arguments in here to heart:

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/...natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/

IG: What will it take for more third parties to succeed on the Wii? Will it improve in 2010? Can Nintendo do anything to help or is this more due to publishers simply putting out crap games?

Pachter: I continue to believe that the Wii audience will buy good games, and think that third parties have done a poor job of making them for the Wii. There are a handful of exceptions (my favorite is Zack and Wiki), but most third party Wii games just plain suck. The third parties don't appear to be giving the Wii owner what he/she wants, which is an approachable, high quality game. The bulk of titles are shovelware, and once a Wii owner has a bad experience with a poorly crafted title from a third party, they are even more likely to return to buying only Nintendo products. This is most definitely NOT Nintendo's fault; they can hardly be blamed for making consistently good games. It's the fault of studios that think it's ok to make a lousy game and put the word "party" in the title.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Maybe Pachter was taking some of the arguments in here to heart:

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/...natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/

That's actually... smart? This changes everything.

 

[jufonuk]

Maybe Pachter was taking some of the arguments in here to heart:

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/...natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/

shit he actually said something I agree with for a change,

 

[Luigison]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but I've seen text and images regarding the Tri bundle that don't jive. Will the Tri bundle include a black CC or a black CC pro?

 

[Boney]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but I've seen text and images regarding the Tri bundle that don't jive. Will the Tri bundle include a black CC or a black CC pro?

It's a black CCPro. And if you preorder you get a 500 point card from Gamestop I believe.

 

[Eteric Rice]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/former-dice-ceo-the-wii-is-a-virus--1107.html

And shit like this is the problem. :/

 

[Sadist]

It won't help though.

 

[Boney]

"Fredrik Liliegrin: If I got paid to develop a Wii game I would do it."

Sigh... moneyhats...

 

[AceBandage]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/former-dice-ceo-the-wii-is-a-virus--1107.html

And shit like this is the problem. :/

"I won't put good franchises on the Wii, but I'll complain because people don't play games on the Wii."

Yep, that about sums up the stupidity of this generation.

 

[Sadist]

Everyone comes home, it's a toy, people have got to realize the Wii is a toy, not an entertainment focused product.

But don't you use a toy for your... you know, entertainment?

 

[Man God]

Publishers DO usually pay developers to make games for consoles, I don't believe many development houses are not for profit! :lol :lol

 

[Swittcher]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/former-dice-ceo-the-wii-is-a-virus--1107.html

And shit like this is the problem. :/

I can understand these sorts of comments during the Wii's first two years, but having this sort of attitude NOW?

That clearly shows you have very little understanding of this industry anymore.

 

[[Nintex]]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/former-dice-ceo-the-wii-is-a-virus--1107.html

And shit like this is the problem. :/

Sony, Microsoft! This guy will make your very expensive HD games for free, what a brave soul he is!

 

[GaimeGuy]

All I know is that I'm buying Fragile, MHTri, Trauma Team, (Possibly) Prince of Persia, S&P 2, and metroid: other M over the next few months. (And yeah, S&P2 and Metroid: other M are developed by 3rd parties but published and supervised by Nintendo), so thanks for finally caring, 3rd parties.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

All I know is that I'm buying Fragile, MHTri, Trauma Team, (Possibly) Prince of Persia, S&P 2, and metroid: other M over the next few months. (And yeah, S&P2 and Metroid: other M are developed by 3rd parties but published and supervised by Nintendo), so thanks for finally caring, 3rd parties.

No SMG2? You have no heart.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Maybe Pachter was taking some of the arguments in here to heart:

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/...natal-estimate-says-dsi-xl-wont-be-a-success/

Wow, Pacther says something reasonable for once

And I think Zack & Wiki would have sold better if they stuck with its original name (Treasure Island Z) and given it a little better retail presence (had to order it online because I couldn't find it in stores, and I live in the metropolitan area that is the HQ of both Target and Best Buy).

 

[GaimeGuy]

No SMG2? You have no heart.

I was sticking to only titles that had a 3rd party connection in my post. Of fcourse I'm buying Galaxy 2

 

[KamenSenshi]

http://www.gamingunion.net/news/former-dice-ceo-the-wii-is-a-virus--1107.html

And shit like this is the problem. :/

how is this even still a thought? at least i can say i agree with Pachter for a change. im glad he actually got some feedback from us and put it out there a little. now if he can tell us about the psp-wii situation.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

I was sticking to only titles that had a 3rd party connection in my post. Of fcourse I'm buying Galaxy 2

Oh the Other M thing confused me. <3 <3 <3