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[AceBandage]

That's another thing I've always wondered is how did the whole hardcore/casual division come about?

I mean if not mistaken both Zelda and Red Steel sold well at launch, but within the first few months it became that hardcore games don't sell on the Wii, and only mini-game collection. Was there ever any actual evidence to that? Like I can hardly remember the Wii's launch, but would be certain Red Steel, Zelda and Raving Rabbids were the biggest winners of launch.

It came about when the Wii started selling but third parties had already put all their eggs in the HD basket.

 

[MYE]

Not quite: Dead Space Extraction got amazing reviews. Ask any Wii owner what they think about Dead Space Extraction and they will probably try to shove the game down your throat before you even finish the word "space"

I enjoyed Extraction

 

[Man God]

That box of Capcom pretty much proves they are the best third party on the Wii with the only real competition coming from EA and Sega.

 

[AceBandage]

That box of Capcom pretty much proves they are the best third party on the Wii with the only real competition coming from EA and Sega.

Nah, MMV is the best third party on the Wii by a country mile.

 

[cacildo]

I enjoyed Extraction

The United Nations estimated the world's population to be 6,800,000,000 in 2009

That means there will always be somebody that likes what nobody else does.

 

[Man God]

Nah, MMV is the best third party on the Wii by a country mile.

NMH1-2, RRF, LKS, ARF, and Muramasa versus RE 4, 0,1, Two rail shooters, Harvey Birdman, TvC, and Tri?

It's a competition to be sure. You're right in that I should have put them above EA and Sega, but I still like Portcom if just for the last two games.

 

[Haunted]

Not quite: Dead Space Extraction got amazing reviews. Ask any Wii owner what they think about Dead Space Extraction and they will probably try to shove the game down your throat before you even finish the word "space"

Extraction? Best lightgun shooter this gen.

 

[Kunan]

Extraction? Best lightgun shooter this gen.

Yea it's amazing. I'm not even a big fan of lightgun games, but this completely sold me on the genre. Immersive and high production values

That´s a good explanation.

because in the end, it all comes down to the fact that publishers are lying to us.

They know that they release mostly crappy games.
They know they release niche games, with no advertising.

And when these games obviously fails they go slamming doors and saying "You see? Hardcore dont sell on wii!!!! Nobody should never ever make another mature game for the wii!!!"

They´re lying,
and the above reply from Kunan maybe explains the reasons for that.

Yea that's pretty much how I feel about it.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

That's another thing I've always wondered is how did the whole hardcore/casual division come about?

I mean if not mistaken both Zelda and Red Steel sold well at launch, but within the first few months it became that hardcore games don't sell on the Wii, and only mini-game collection. Was there ever any actual evidence to that? Like I can hardly remember the Wii's launch, but would be certain Red Steel, Zelda and Raving Rabbids were the biggest winners of launch.

It's just another name for the "Nintendo is kiddy, MS/Sony/SEGA are mature" excuse that 3rd Party devs have been using since the SNES era. They found that they couldn't use the old excuse anymore so they twisted Nintendo's strategy and used it as an excuse to save face and continue ignoring Nintendo's platforms. Combine it with a bit of FUD about Nintendo were supposedly abandoning their fanbase and voila!

 

[Sadist]

The United Nations estimated the world's population to be 6,800,000,000 in 2009

That means there will always be somebody that likes what nobody else does.

You really hate Extraction huh?

 

[Takao]

Wii defense force always gets me. They always mention that for a game to be successful it's needs tonnes of marketing. Well, weren't there tonnes of PS2 and PS1 games that did just fine without major marketing pushes? The real barometer of a healthly "core" or "traditional" gamer market on a platform is not how the games that get multi-million dollar marketing pushes perform because those games are going to do numbers solely for the fact that they've got public awareness, it's the games that don't have that that truly show how healthly, or unhealthy something is. Demon's Souls is Atlus's biggest success story ever, they didn't spend much if anything at all marketing that title, and yet it's likely over 200k in the US.

 

[Dascu]

Extraction? Best lightgun shooter this gen.

I respectfully disagree. Did not like the game at all.

 

[Man God]

Extraction? Best lightgun shooter this gen.

I disrespectively agree. Neener-neener.

 

[AceBandage]

Wii defense force always gets me. They always mention that for a game to be successful it's needs tonnes of marketing. Well, weren't there tonnes of PS2 and PS1 games that did just fine without major marketing pushes? The real barometer of a healthly "core" or "traditional" gamer market on a platform is not how the games that get multi-million dollar marketing pushes perform because those games are going to do numbers solely for the fact that they've got public awareness, it's the games that don't have that that truly show how healthly, or unhealthy something is.

None that I can think of.
Can you?
Though, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "just fine". There were plenty of games that were considered flops that should have sold better just because of how good they were on both systems.

Demon's Souls is Atlus's biggest success story ever, they didn't spend much if anything at all marketing that title, and yet it's likely over 200k in the US.

And NMH is Suda's biggest success story and is likely over 200K in the US as well.
Doesn't mean anything except that they both got good word of mouth.
Something that games like Deadly Creatures, DS:E and such didn't get because few people wanted them period.

The point is, that publishers are expecting insane numbers for their games on the Wii (Capcom expected 500K for Chop Till You Drop...) when they make them with low level teams and give them no marketing.

 

[Man God]

Atlus's biggest success story ever is probably either Persona 3 or one of the Trauma Center games. While you take on a lot more of the cost when developing, you also get a much larger piece of the pie.

 

[combinekidd]

I respectfully disagree. Did not like the game at all.

I was just playing the game a few minutes ago and I wouldn't really class it as a light-gun shooter, its more of a movie with gameplay added as an extra (well thats what it feels like to me), it's not as if it's very hard (I'm only playing on Normal) and there really isn't much to it. But I do like the game for what it is.

 

[Kunan]

Wii defense force always gets me. They always mention that for a game to be successful it's needs tonnes of marketing. Well, weren't there tonnes of PS2 and PS1 games that did just fine without major marketing pushes? The real barometer of a healthly "core" or "traditional" gamer market on a platform is not how the games that get multi-million dollar marketing pushes perform because those games are going to do numbers solely for the fact that they've got public awareness, it's the games that don't have that that truly show how healthly, or unhealthy something is. Demon's Souls is Atlus's biggest success story ever, they didn't spend much if anything at all marketing that title, and yet it's likely over 200k in the US.

Opiate was talking pages ago about how you need a big push from major titles at the forefront for the B tier and more obscure games to get sales. You need that that big push to get the right people interested in those types of games for the console (even those that own it already, likely get experiences from ps3/360/pc). Once those people are interested and playing the major games, they'll look towards the similar yet more niche games to pad time between releases.

I was just playing the game a few minutes ago and I wouldn't really class it as a light-gun shooter, its more of a movie with gameplay added as an extra (well thats what it feels like to me), it's not as if it's very hard (I'm only playing on Normal) and there really isn't much to it. But I do like the game for what it is.

Yea it basically nails it as a cinematic experience more than a game, but its good for what it is. Try a harder difficulty as it really amps up the tension and game-play, I think Normal is the lowest of the 4?

 

[Man God]

Extraction gets hard but yes, I thought most of normal was too damn easy, especially two player, like Overkill. Thankfully unlike Overkill the difficulty does spike.

 

[Takao]

None that I can think of.
Can you?
Though, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "just fine". There were plenty of games that were considered flops that should have sold better just because of how good they were on both systems.

I dunno dude, I heard that Disgaea game sold over 250k in the US with no marketing at all, and only started the largest SRPG franchise of recent memory. Klonoa (which was remade on Wii) didn't recieve much marketing back in the PS1 days, yet managed to do well enough for it to spawn a direct sequel on PS2, and a bunch of spinoffs, and a remake. Before Tak became the star of a Nickelodeon TV show, him and the likes of Ty were just C-list platformers on a platform rich with them, yet they managed to do well enough to spawn a franchise. Heck most if not all of Working Designs (back in the day), Atlus, and X-Seed games got nothing more then magazine ads, yet they managed to do well enough for them.

You mentioned word of mouth. Well how about if there's no one to hear what you're talking about? From either the traditional gamers being ignorant, or the non-traditionals just not giving a shit.

 

[Mael]

Wii defense force always gets me. They always mention that for a game to be successful it's needs tonnes of marketing. Well, weren't there tonnes of PS2 and PS1 games that did just fine without major marketing pushes? The real barometer of a healthly "core" or "traditional" gamer market on a platform is not how the games that get multi-million dollar marketing pushes perform because those games are going to do numbers solely for the fact that they've got public awareness, it's the games that don't have that that truly show how healthly, or unhealthy something is. Demon's Souls is Atlus's biggest success story ever, they didn't spend much if anything at all marketing that title, and yet it's likely over 200k in the US.

Someone with an Okamiden avatar saying that? :lol you gotta love the irony here :lol

And no seriously despite everything they have I doubt that MMV has anything close to Monster Hunter Tri in their portfolio.
Heck by just the value of this Capcom could just have released Ninjabreadman 1 & 2 and acted like EA, they would still be the best if only for MH.
Seriously a game that put to shame EVEN first party titles? the last time I remember this happening that was RE4, right?

 

[Man God]

TvC shouldn't be sneezed at either, it's hands down the best Versus series title released.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I dunno dude, I heard that Disgaea game sold over 250k in the US with no marketing at all, and only started the largest SRPG franchise of recent memory. Klonoa (which was remade on Wii) didn't recieve much marketing back in the PS1 days, yet managed to do well enough for it to spawn a direct sequel on PS2, and a bunch of spinoffs, and a remake. Before Tak became the star of a Nickelodeon TV show, him and the likes of Ty were just C-list platformers on a platform rich with them, yet they managed to do well enough to spawn a franchise. Heck most if not all of Working Designs (back in the day), Atlus, and X-Seed games got nothing more then magazine ads, yet they managed to do well enough for them.

You mentioned word of mouth. Well how about if there's no one to hear what you're talking about? From either the traditional gamers being ignorant, or the non-traditionals just not giving a shit.

Trauma Series sold well. No More Heroes is Grasshopper's biggest selling title ever. De Blob sold well. Boom Blox sold well.

On Klonoa's success, it was pretty much understood that Klonoa was dead after its sequel til Namco took the chance with a Wiimake.

 

[AceBandage]

I dunno dude, I heard that Disgaea game sold over 250k in the US with no marketing at all, and only started the largest SRPG franchise of recent memory. Klonoa (which was remade on Wii) didn't recieve much marketing back in the PS1 days, yet managed to do well enough for it to spawn a direct sequel on PS2, and a bunch of spinoffs, and a remake. Before Tak became the star of a Nickelodeon TV show, him and the likes of Ty were just C-list platformers on a platform rich with them, yet they managed to do well enough to spawn a franchise. Heck most if not all of Working Designs (back in the day), Atlus, and X-Seed games got nothing more then magazine ads, yet they managed to do well enough for them.

You mentioned word of mouth. Well how about if there's no one to hear what you're talking about? From either the traditional gamers being ignorant, or the non-traditionals just not giving a shit.

Did you really just use Disgaea and Klonoa, the former which has apparently been killing NIS and the latter was killed off due to lackluster sales on the systems, as games that did well?
Oy.

As for the word of mouth, so you agree that you need marketing to sell a game? Thanks.

 

[Takao]

If people have a hard time swallowing light gun shooters, good luck with Monster Hunter. Like I said before, that's not the game that'll save the Wii's third party turmoil in the west at the very least.

Did you really just use Disgaea and Klonoa, the former which has apparently been killing NIS and the latter was killed off due to lackluster sales on the systems, as games that did well?
Oy.

As for the word of mouth, so you agree that you need marketing to sell a game? Thanks.

lol if you think Disgaea is killing NIS. Hint: It's their biggest franchise, and the only thing they have that's actually guaranteed to sell.

I admit, Klonoa being an example was weak. I love the series, but it was never even remotely big. I only used it because it's one of the first things that came into my mind when I thought of franchises that did well despite limited to no marketing.

As for word of mouth, er, isn't word of mouth the definition of success without marketing?

 

[AceBandage]

If people have a hard time swallowing light gun shooters, good luck with Monster Hunter. Like I said before, that's not the game that'll save the Wii's third party turmoil in the west at the very least.



lol if you think Disgaea is killing NIS. Hint: It's their biggest franchise, and the only thing they have that's actually guaranteed to sell.

As for word of mouth, er, isn't word of mouth the definition of success without marketing?

Apparently not.

And yes, good worth of mouth is good marketing, but if the games aren't getting it to being with, that can be overcome by ACTUAL marketing.
Again, games like DS:E and Deadly Creatures do not get good word of mouth because they don't have very broad appeal (and aren't high quality titles), but this could have been overcome by you know, telling people it existed outside of forum posters?

 

[Stumpokapow]

My angry friend, understand this:

With the walls we´re judging publishers more than games here.

I'm not angry, I just think that you've failed to make one of the easiest points in history because you're unwilling to set aside how obviously angry you are at publishers for putting games you want on a system you don't own.

Do you think its fair for THQ to say that since nobody wanted Deadly Creatures there´s no hardcore market on the wii and that nobody should ever try to make a mature wii game again?

I think that's pretty much a terrible reading of what they said. If they openly did say that I wouldn't find it fair or unfair. I'd find it to be their opinion, and I'd buy the good games they release on the platforms they release them on, just like I do with every publisher.

It's 2010. This generation's course is set in stone. If you're not happy with the options you have available on the system you own, buy another system. They're quite affordable, and you'll possibly even save money by checking out cheap games you missed over the last five years.

If you are happy with the system you own, it doesn't make much sense to sit around navel gazing about what could have been if only those idiotic third party publishers forgot their collective psychosis and ushered in an era of unprecedented innovation on the unparalleled Nintendo Wii. No one does this about any other console.

 

[Mael]

I love how we're comparing Atlus, the very definition of niche publisher, with Electronic Arts, the very definition of mainstream publisher.
If you think that they operate the same way, boy you are in for a surprise!

Oh and MH3 won't be the savior for 3rd parties because now it's going to be considered 1rst party because Nintendo is doing the publishing :lol :lol :lol

 

[Takao]

Apparently not.

Did you even read that article? No where does it blame Disgaea for their drop in profit. In fact, that article says less Disgaea games were released in that fiscal year then the year before, and surprise, surprise, their profit fell. It said they published more shit that doesn't sell, NIS only has one franchise, news at 11.

 

[mugurumakensei]

If you are happy with the system you own, it doesn't make much sense to sit around navel gazing about what could have been if only those idiotic third party publishers forgot their collective psychosis and ushered in an era of unprecedented innovation on the unparalleled Nintendo Wii. No one does this about any other console.

If I remember correctly, there was a bunch of whining on this very forum that No More Heroes should have been released on an HD console. (Though now it is. Apparently, whining works for those platforms.) Also, there was whining about Epic Mickey.

P.S. You still up for betting that Sonic 4: Episode 1 won't fit inside Wiiware's cap?

 

[Sadist]

Sega wall of Wii games

Sega has 30 retail titles, of which only three(!) have a metascore of 75 or higher at this point. THotD Overkill, Sonic & Sega All-Star Racing and MadWorld are those three games. Allthough I like games like Ghost Squad and Sonic & tSR, Sega's Wii line-up ain't that good either.

I also looked up the list for Bandai-Namco, but that;s just depressing. Only Klonoa has a metascore of 76. As for the rest... yeah we won't talk about that. Square-Enix only has three retail releases (Chocobo's Dungeon being the only one getting a score higher than 75) and you have some other publishers, but that's just sad as well.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm just gonna list out all the Walls that have been made so far.

Activision | Ubisoft | THQ | Konami | Capcom | Namco-Bandai | Take-Two | Sega | Majesco | Zoo Games | Square Enix

We were hoping to get all the major publisher on the Wall and then compare that not only to what Nintendo has done, but to what those same publishers have released on the PS3/360.

Then everyone can see why things are the way they are.

 

[poppabk]

Wii defense force always gets me. They always mention that for a game to be successful it's needs tonnes of marketing. Well, weren't there tonnes of PS2 and PS1 games that did just fine without major marketing pushes? The real barometer of a healthly "core" or "traditional" gamer market on a platform is not how the games that get multi-million dollar marketing pushes perform because those games are going to do numbers solely for the fact that they've got public awareness, it's the games that don't have that that truly show how healthly, or unhealthy something is. Demon's Souls is Atlus's biggest success story ever, they didn't spend much if anything at all marketing that title, and yet it's likely over 200k in the US.

So where is the big list of games that did well on PS3/360 with no marketing? Demon's Soul has so far sold half of what Boom Blox sold in the US, so there should be several titles that have sold in the millions without a big advertising push, if indeed the 360/PS3 have more healthy 'core' markets relative to Wii.

 

[Sipowicz]

The thing about EA is that they are completely unwilling to invest any money into the Wii or put any of their good teams on it

they have 10 games on the system that have sold over a million copies, some of them significantly more

yet all you ever hear the cunts do is complain about the system and their low budget, inferior software on it

stuff like dead space extraction, boom blox and NBA Jam is being made specifically so they can overcharge Wii owners for crapper versions of games they'll be releasing on XBLA for ten dollars. and the motherfuckers still complain when these obvious attempts to rip you off dont sell

they are a complete disgrace on the wii and i would love to see the exploitative pieces of shit lose a whole lot of money on the platform

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Sega wall of Wii games

Sega has 30 retail titles, of which only three(!) have a metascore of 75 or higher at this point. THotD Overkill, Sonic & Sega All-Star Racing and MadWorld are those three games. Allthough I like games like Ghost Squad and Sonic & tSR, Sega's Wii line-up ain't that good either.

I also looked up the list for Bandai-Namco, but that;s just depressing. Only Klonoa has a metascore of 76. As for the rest... yeah we won't talk about that. Square-Enix only has three retail releases (Chocobo's Dungeon being the only one getting a score higher than 75) and you have some other publishers, but that's just sad as well.

Well, SEGA doesn't fare much better critically on the other consoles. I think the important thing to note is that SEGA has been putting (by their standards) a very strong effort forward on the Wii.

 

[Man God]

Secret Rings is underrated and is in fact the best 3D Sonic game this gen.

 

[Sipowicz]

sega actually invest money in the wii. sega actually made some interesting stuff on the wii that caught people's attention and they experimented with stuff

EA throws cheap, simplistic, poorly marketed shit at the wii then insults the audience when they dont buy it

in those rare instances that the lazy bastards do make something worth a damn for the system they'll put it ont Xbox live arcade for 15 bucks

scum

 

[Man God]

I hate to say it but EA has more quality Wii games then Sega.

Sega has:

Madworld
House of the Dead:Overkill
House of the Dead Returns
Sonic and Sega All Stars
Sonic TSR

EA has:
Madden '07
All three Tiger Woods games
Godfather Black Hand Edition
Dead Space:Extraction
Both Boom Blox games.
Grand Slam Tennis

 

[cacildo]

I hate to say it but EA has more quality Wii games then Sega.

Sega has:

Madworld
House of the Dead:Overkill
House of the Dead Returns
Sonic and Sega All Stars
Sonic TSR

EA has:
Madden '07
All three Tiger Woods games
Godfather Black Hand Edition
Dead Space:Extraction
Both Boom Blox games.
Grand Slam Tennis

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Overkill > All of EA's output put together

 

[Man God]

Extraction>Overkill.

Overkill's Humor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Extraction.

 

[Aaron Strife]

what I find funny is when HD-concern trolls are like "WELL YOU DIDN'T BUY THE CONDUIT SO REALLY YOU ONLY HAVE YOURSELVES TO BLAME"

would you buy the Conduit if it came to your console of choice?

 

[GDGF]

Keep the walls of shame coming. This is a very eye opening thread.

 

[ShinNL]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

WTF, are you hating on Grand Slam Tennis? That's borderline trolling in my book :O

 

[jay]

Nintendo fans who hate everything and don't draw distinctions between niche and bad games are really making this conversation go no where.

 

[KamenSenshi]

We were hoping to get all the major publisher on the Wall and then compare that not only to what Nintendo has done, but to what those same publishers have released on the PS3/360. Then everyone can see why things are the way they are.

that would be a disappointing sight wouldnt it? not just 3rd party vs nintendo because we know they wont put that effort in, but compared to the hd systems. whereas on hd there are big games like ff13&res5, middle range like saints row&red alert, it seems that for wii all they will do are what last gen would have been considered lower end or niche games. even when they could put it on wii or start to(res or saints), it gets cut down or canceled. i expect to see more of this even when the sony wand is out there.

 

[pakkit]

Nintendo fans who hate everything and don't draw distinctions between niche and bad games are really making this conversation go no where.

Nintendo 3rd Party Arguments: Going nowhere for 4 9 14 years

 

[jaundicejuice]

It would be great to have PS3, Xbox 360 walls for those same companies for contrast.

 

[Version 3.0]

do you really think that people not involved with games take notice of the publisher though?

I'll answer this, both in general and based on personal experience (long ago). No, people generally don't pay attention to a game's publisher. BUT, if they get burnt enough times (or burnt particularly badly), then they might.

Personal anecdote: long, long ago, I bought an NES and a couple of games. At the time, I had no idea there were separate publishers. Like many people, then and now, I thought Atari 2600 games were all from Atari, and all NES games for my new purchase were from Nintendo.

The two games I purchased--for nearly the same price--were The Legend of Zelda and Commando. One of them provided me with weeks of awesome entertainment. The other one was good for a day or so of frustrating, uninspired gameplay with awful performance to boot. And of course, the 3rd game I had was the pack-in, Super Mario Bros, which was also great (but I'd long since mastered the arcade version).

Perplexed at this huge disparity, I looked closely at the game manuals and discovered that the good one was from the console maker, Nintendo, and the other was from another company! I vowed never to buy another game from this awful "Capcom" again (long since broken, of course; Capcom are one of the greats).

How many millions of times can you imagine a very similar scenario playing out in today's homes with the Wii?

 

[Stumpokapow]

If I remember correctly, there was a bunch of whining on this very forum that No More Heroes should have been released on an HD console. (Though now it is. Apparently, whining works for those platforms.) Also, there was whining about Epic Mickey.

Yes, port begging is fucking obnoxious when they do it too, which is why I'm glad that the armies of shit posters got banned in the Epic Mickey thread for doing it. Did you expect me to disagree?

The difference is that while there are annoying dweebs begging for ports to PS3 or 360 or PC, most of those people by and large are satisfied with the output on their system. "Why won't game <x> come to my system?" is stupid--"Why won't <the entire catalogue of every single third party publisher who by the way are all asshole morons and they deserve to go bankrupt> come to my system?" is just idiotic.

But I trust from you raising the NMH issue that you agree with me, and you feel this kind of self-flagellation in Wii fans is pointless and masochistic.

As I've said before, going multiplatform is a great way to save money. If you only own one console, you will almost certainly save a significant amount of cash from buying a second console and then raiding bargain bins for all the awesome games you've missed which are now available for $10-30.

P.S. You still up for betting that Sonic 4: Episode 1 won't fit inside Wiiware's cap?

Actually, my bet was that Sonic 4 wouldn't fit in the Wiiware cap, and surprise surprise the announcement turns up that it's an episodic game so the point is rendered moot. Kudos to Sega for figuring out an excellent way to dodge the size cap while simultaneously extracting even more money from their fans.

... I don't see how that relates to this thread except if your intent was "Quick, can I think of anything even vaguely not hyperbolically possible Stumpokapow has ever said about the Wii? Oh, he mentioned that the WiiWare size caps would limit Sonic 4 from being on WiiWare! Let's drop the pwnage bomb!!!! Wii rules!"

 

[ShinNL]

Stumpokapow, you're just using an extensive long version of "If you want real games, buy a HD system". Which you've been doing for quite a while (it's almost a copy-paste read each time). My question is, how do you keep ending up in Wii threads spreading your Jesus message? You see: you = HD mindset, this = Wii thread. What's the reason you're here besides calling almost every Wii-only owner delusional?