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Sonic the Hedgehog 4 - Wii/PS3/360; downloadable episodic release - [Update: $15?]

Sega1991 said:
I like how the actual definition of the Sonic Cycle no longer applies and it's simply become a new way of saying "This is a bad Sonic game".

Perhaps the cycle is evolving?

SEGA announce new game, and say Sonic is returning to his roots, fans are happy -> Media released shows game a million miles away from Sonic's roots, fans are dismayed -> Game is released, panned in reviews, fans promise to never be fooled again -> spin and repeat
 
Mama Robotnik said:
Perhaps the cycle is evolving?

SEGA announce new game, and say Sonic is returning to his roots, fans are happy -> Media released shows game a million miles away from Sonic's roots, fans are dismayed -> Game is released, panned in reviews, fans promise to never be fooled again -> spin and repeat

That's the same thing :lol
 
Green Scar said:
That's the same thing :lol

I edited out the "new friends" and "gimmicks" bits, its evolving for efficiency!

EDIT - then again, the most efficient variant would be:

Sega promise good game -> Game looks shit -> Game is shit -> rinse and repeat.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
The only thing missing from the usual Sonic Cycle are the shitty friends
that may still be in later episodes
. Everything else seems to apply perfectly.
 
Mama Robotnik said:
I edited out the "new friends" and "gimmicks" bits, its evolving for efficiency!

EDIT - then again, the most efficient variant would be:

Sega promise good game -> Game looks shit -> Game is shit -> rinse and repeat.

That's how I always read it. Besides, when this fails miserably Sega will go back to new friends and gimmicks anyway :p
 

Mael

Member
magicalsoundshower said:
If you want to support your theory that any scrolling platformer is a Mario clone, are you sure you don't mean that the other way around?

No I mean there's litterally billions of Mario clones the same way there's billions of Doom clones (hence we coined the term Doom-like to say fps)

magicalsoundshower said:
Yeah and I indeed meant it wouldn't be fair to call Rocket Knight Adventures a Sonic clone.

Hence my little correction, I understood the typo (I make them all the time and usually I forget a word :lol)
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Dimps is a perfectly fine and competent developer when given the right creative leadership. Ono worked with them fine. Iizuka apparently does not.

Given that Iizuka is the one who turned "Sonic Lightning" on the PSP in to "Sonic Rivals" (the race gimmick was his idea), I think it's fair to say that the man wants to "innovate" but for one reason or another cannot follow through.

As many have said so much in this thread, this was supposed to be Sonic the Hedgehog 4. A return to the "classic" style of Sonic games. And here we are with shitty, poorly-conceived tilt gimmicks and a homing attack, neither of which evokes "classic" Sonic games at all.
 

Dubble

Member
Following Sega1991's comment, does anyone else think Izuka is the problem here? I've wondered that for a while myself.

His name has been attached to nearly every terrible Sonic game from Adventure on up in some way and it seems like he keeps trying the same things, no matter how much they spectacularly fail, over and over.

That's not to say he's an out and out bad guy. Granted, we've all heard the stories about how much Yuji Naka was a ridiculous drama queen back in the day, but Izuka (at this rate) seems to come off more stubborn than anything given the ten steps back for every one step forward that seems to plague the Sonic series in general. All I'm saying is, shouldn't the blame for really bad Sonic stuff lie on the director of said games than blanketing all involved since the director is the person who chooses how the game will ultimately come to be?
 
Dubble said:
Following Sega1991's comment, does anyone else think Izuka is the problem here? I've wondered that for a while myself.

His name has been attached to nearly every terrible Sonic game from Adventure on up in some way and it seems like he keeps trying the same things, no matter how much they spectacularly fail, over and over.

That's not to say he's an out and out bad guy. Granted, we've all heard the stories about how much Yuji Naka was a ridiculous drama queen back in the day, but Izuka (at this rate) seems to come off more stubborn than anything given the ten steps back for every one step forward that seems to plague the Sonic series in general. All I'm saying is, shouldn't the blame for really bad Sonic stuff lie on the director of said games than blanketing all involved since the director is the person who chooses how the game will ultimately come to be?

It's hard to say. I'm sure he's been the harbinger of many bad ideas. But as I've heard he was not explicitly involved in Sonic 2006 (though he is listed under "Special Thanks" in the credits) and that was a train wreck anyway.

I mean, there's the whole thing about how one man is not responsible and bad games usually fall apart because several team members poison the production pipeline, but I don't know. We'll probably never know for certain, either.
 

WillyFive

Member
Dever said:
Where can I see this footage? This thread's got a lot of pages.. :p

I don't recommend it. It's known to make people literally sick due to it's high amount of movement and spins. It will make you dizzy.
 

Teknoman

Member
Teknoman said:
He cant play the game very well, but you're just supposed to tilt a little in whatever direction you're facing to pick up speed, jumping over obstacles as they come.

Sure its a dumb idea in a Sonic game, but the player made it look even worse by over rotating or rotating in a direction that was the complete opposite of where the goal was.

Not sure why the programmers even allowed the player to rotate that much, but to make it through the actual stage, if you have a little gaming sense, you should be ok.

Im not defending the idea by any means, but after watching the videos a few times, you see that the person playing makes the stage look alot worse than it actually is.

Same for Sunset Hill Act 2 with the vines, and homing attack dashing all over the place/ not knowing how a vine works.

EDIT: Like in the gif, stop jumping so damn much, just rotate a little to the left to slide back, rotate to the right to build up speed, then jump. Simple.

Teknoman said:
I mean seriously, look at the video objectively. Why would you rotate that much at certain parts, or even make everything upside down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e5zh3AmQAA

Found it, crazy upload names :lol

If it was displayed at the right screen size, I bet that stage would be easy, and not very nauseating aside from the idea of being in a cart for a whole act.

Quoting myself from earlier for link. Also in the hopes people look at it without just going lolcarts. :lol
 
Mael said:
I mean look at Metroid Prime, they were supervised by Miyamoto himself to make sure that the product would be the way Nintendo wanted (and the result was beyond everyone's expectations).
Now imagine if Miyamoto went out of his way to suggest stupid idea that made no sense.
Well despite all of Retro's talent the end product would be subpar.

It was called Starfox Adventures.
 

jman2050

Member
You all realize there's Casino Street leaked stuff out now, right?

EDIT - And as what seems to be a general trend, Act 2 a is a bullshit gimmick act. As it stands, it seems Dimps still has some good level design in them, it's just going to be ruined because Sonic controls like ass.
 

Dartastic

Member
jman2050 said:
You all realize there's Casino Street leaked stuff out now, right?

EDIT - And as what seems to be a general trend, Act 2 a is a bullshit gimmick act. As it stands, it seems Dimps still has some good level design in them, it's just going to be ruined because Sonic controls like ass.

That's usually where you post a link.
 

Lijik

Member
jman2050 said:
You all realize there's Casino Street leaked stuff out now, right?

EDIT - And as what seems to be a general trend, Act 2 a is a bullshit gimmick act. As it stands, it seems Dimps still has some good level design in them, it's just going to be ruined because Sonic controls like ass.

Act 2 video died on me 3 minutes in, is it seriously just that fucking pinball table for the whole thing?
 

Teknoman

Member
Thanks for the heads up J. Act 1 looks really nice...but the music still sounds off even in game. I mean the stages (graphics wise) look better and better as the player progresses, but they could've done a better job with the music for the Casino.

I see where people would be complaining about too many animations (why does Sonic actually stop rolling and go into a kind of "wheeee!" animation after coming out a loop?

On to Act 2:

So the whole act is just a pinball table? Dimps seems to do good work...so im guessing the director is at fault here. Its not really broken or anything, just odd. I mean I messed around with the pinball machine in Casinopolis and Casino Night Zone alot, but that was just to build up rings...never expected a whole stage to focus on it.

Not as strange as the mine cart act though.

Act 3 time:

Seems like a cross between Wario Land shake it and Carnival Night zone. Video keeps restarting at a certain point for some reason.

Boss time: Looked decent and the phase 2 music fits nicely, but that seemed to be over too fast.
 
Teknoman said:
Quoting myself from earlier for link. Also in the hopes people look at it without just going lolcarts. :lol

Er, the reason we're going lolcarts is because we watched the video. Nobody is arguing that the player doesn't suck. That's pretty obvious to anyone who's given even a cursory glance at the footage. A lousy player is a lousy player no matter what.

What we have a problem with is the overall level and control design. Instead of controlling Sonic directly, we're now required to rotate the level just so Minecart+Sonic can go around a loop-de-loop? Look at some of those loops. Do you really believe it'll feel remotely satisfying to continually tilt the level just to maintain "momentum" going through a loop? Or what about those tiny little ledges? Is it ever going to feel natural to hold RT so the Minecart can hop up and far enough to continue through the level?

All of it is just unnecessarily awkward. And to me reeks of the same kind of misguided view of motion controls that have torpedoed entire games this generation. Let's be perfectly realistic here. Motion controls in many games are still a fad. Many motion control implementations are terribly handled and end up shoehorning meaningless gameplay contrivances into franchises that really do not need them. And when a player can look at your game and seriously ask why didn't you just use a simple button press instead of "new control scheme X" you have a major problem.

The moral of the story is if you don't understand how to and can't do motion controls correctly, don't do them at all.

This Minecart thing is motion controls gone horribly, horribly wrong.
 
I'll say it again: I bet my left nut that Sega put the minecart in as a weird and totally unwarranted reaction to NSMB Wii using the occasional motion.
 

Princess Skittles

Prince's's 'Skittle's
ShockingAlberto said:
I'll say it again: I bet my left nut that Sega put the minecart in as a weird and totally unwarranted reaction to NSMB Wii using the occasional motion.
Sixteen years of awful Sonic games and they need a REASON to make the next one awful or have an awful aspect to it?
 

Teknoman

Member
The Blue Jihad said:
Er, the reason we're going lolcarts is because we watched the video. Nobody is arguing that the player doesn't suck. That's pretty obvious to anyone who's given even a cursory glance at the footage. A lousy player is a lousy player no matter what.

What we have a problem with is the overall level and control design. Instead of controlling Sonic directly, we're now required to rotate the level just so Minecart+Sonic can go around a loop-de-loop? Look at some of those loops. Do you really believe it'll feel remotely satisfying to continually tilt the level just to maintain "momentum" going through a loop? Or what about those tiny little ledges? Is it ever going to feel natural to hold RT so the Minecart can hop up and far enough to continue through the level?

All of it is just unnecessarily awkward. And to me reeks of the same kind of misguided view of motion controls that have torpedoed entire games this generation. Let's be perfectly realistic here. Motion controls in many games are still a fad. Many motion control implementations are terribly handled and end up shoehorning meaningless gameplay contrivances into franchises that really do not need them. And when a player can look at your game and seriously ask why didn't you just use a simple button press instead of "new control scheme X" you have a major problem.

The moral of the story is if you don't understand how to and can't do motion controls correctly, don't do them at all.

This Minecart thing is motion controls gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Yeah it would've been better controlling Sonic directly, and like Alberto said, its probably just Sega/Dimps going "me too" after seeing all the tilt stuff in NSMB Wii (which wasnt really necessary either...). This is one of the few reasonable descriptions of the video i've seen though, so thats why I posted the lolcarts part. Some were just looking at the video thinking you really did have to spin that much to get through, yet not posting anything other than "wtf is this shit".
 

Zen

Banned
dark10x said:
I can fully understand this, but I feel everyone is being much too harsh on this game. It looks like a reasonably fun platform game to me. People are getting too caught up on the details and ignoring the fact that it may actually be a fun game in its own right.

Pretty much this. I mean I was right there with everyone else calling Ruby a liar etc, but if you step back and get over how it's not exactly what we were promised... it looks fun. Some things could be tweaked, sure, but this looks quality.

jman2050 said:
Whoops, brain fart on my part

Acts 1-3 then the boss

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2885/4042.mp4
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/955/25547673.mp4
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5511/1111.mp4
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/58/622.mp4

I think these videos do the best job in highlighting the really janky physics in this game. Momentum in the air? What's that lawlz.

Not the biggest fan of Casino Street, but it has nothing to do with the physics and more so all the acts being nothing but pinball mechanics, hopefully our 4 area is as good as Labyrinth Zone.
 

Teknoman

Member
About the "rolling then coming out of the ball" animation when coming out of loops:

Is it possible that the player is actually pressing a button to make Sonic do that?
 
I haven't had a chance to watch the new videos, but are we sure Sonic is vunerable when he uncurls off those ramps? It may just be an animation thing, some of the jump attacks look like he uncurls too early too. Could be very wrong though, just bringing it up.
 

Teknoman

Member
If its not the player pressing a button, then I hope so. But looking at how the guy spams homing attack no matter what, it could be him just pressing homing attack while rolling.

EDIT: On the bright side (heh...), at least the homing attack only goes straight to whatever it's locked on, and not past it/ able to shoot off without having a target.
 

Ten-Song

Member
jman2050 said:
Whoops, brain fart on my part

Acts 1-3 then the boss

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2885/4042.mp4
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/955/25547673.mp4
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5511/1111.mp4
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/58/622.mp4

I think these videos do the best job in highlighting the really janky physics in this game. Momentum in the air? What's that lawlz.

Holy crap. Those videos are like the perfect example of what is wrong with the game's physics. God that was painful to watch. And yay, another gimmick chapter! Because it wouldn't be a Sonic game without terrible out of place gimmicks!
 

Teknoman

Member
After watching Act 3, Sonic doesnt always come out of a roll when in a loop, and it seems like it would be wise to not spam homing, since they put springs and other traps to actually make you lose progress if using the attack 24/7.
 

Ten-Song

Member
Teknoman said:
After watching Act 3, Sonic doesnt always come out of a roll when in a loop, and it seems like it would be wise to not spam homing, since they put springs and other traps to actually make you lose progress if using the attack 24/7.

And yet, there are worthless enemy bridges to encourage spamming it as much as possible.

Honestly, it seems like no one involved with the project knew what the hell was up with the level design.
 

Zen

Banned
Teknoman said:
After watching Act 3, Sonic doesnt always come out of a roll when in a loop, and it seems like it would be wise to not spam homing, since they put springs and other traps to actually make you lose progress if using the attack 24/7.

That seems like a good mechanic to slightly prevent just spamming the homing attack.
 

Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
I never expected this game to be proper. But every time I enter this thread I find myself bubbling with rage and coming all too close to writing up some meltdown shit that would have me banned.

...

I'm going to play Sonic 2 again.


;_;
 

Teknoman

Member
Yeah sometimes it looks optional, others mandatory. Too bad the trial isnt coming till this summer... They could've just put up Splash Hill Act 1 demo or something.
 
jman2050 said:
Whoops, brain fart on my part

Acts 1-3 then the boss

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2885/4042.mp4
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/955/25547673.mp4
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5511/1111.mp4
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/58/622.mp4

I think these videos do the best job in highlighting the really janky physics in this game. Momentum in the air? What's that lawlz.

That act 2 is way worse than the mine cart. It is just a slot machine segment, that is it, an entire level for that. What the hell?!
 

Dandy

Member
jman2050 said:
Whoops, brain fart on my part

Acts 1-3 then the boss

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2885/4042.mp4
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/955/25547673.mp4
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5511/1111.mp4
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/58/622.mp4

I think these videos do the best job in highlighting the really janky physics in this game. Momentum in the air? What's that lawlz.
This game is gonna make so much money. Even though I can see all the flaws it still looks like a good time, normal people are gonna love this game.
 
MiamiWesker said:
That act 2 is way worse than the mine cart. It is just a slot machine segment, that is it, an entire level for that. What the hell?!
Why would anyone think that was the actual Act 2 and not just the "Act 2 Point Challenge?"
 

Teknoman

Member
Son of Godzilla said:
Why would anyone think that was the actual Act 2 and not just the "Act 2 Point Challenge?"

They have extra point challenge stages?


Wonder who is going to end up making the official topic :lol
 

clav

Member
It would help a lot if the player in these videos actually could play the classics well. He doesn't seem to grasp some of the Sonic basics like naturally rolling into a ball at high speeds or letting go the d-pad to let Sonic run its course.

From what I've seen so far:

Mine cart stage is fucking atrocious.
Pinball stage is actually OK. I remember spending a lot of time in Sonic 2 typing in the level select code just to jump to casino night and play the casino machine for 10 minutes before Sonic dying.
The rest seem very Sonic Advance 1-like with quite a number more speed rails.
Homing attack needs to be removed. It was only added in the Sonic 3D series so that attacking enemies would be easier in a 3D plane. It doesn't really make sense in a 2D realm. Juggling Sonic on a pad by bouncing on enemies and objects was part of the fun.

Sonic Advance 1 was the only Sonic game I've enjoyed recently. 2, 3, rush, adventure were terrible.
 

loosus

Banned
I just saw the minecart level...

HOLY SHIT. :lol I figured that GAF was just overreacting, so I had to see it for myself. No, GAF is right on the fucking money. That level is so fucking terrible.

In addition to the obvious rotating bullshit and the minecart itself, why the hell do so many modern Sonic games put you through like 4 unavoidable springs just to get you to a new area? For example, in the video, the minecart touches one spring, which springs him into like 3 or 4 other springs, which effectively puts him in a new area of the level. But why do it that way? Is it for the "Oh bro, now that is FAST phew dawg glad I got this game!" crowd or what?
 

Peff

Member
Hm, doesn't he do the strolling up a wall thing several times in Casino Street act 1? Before he gets the sneakers, I mean.
 

Teknoman

Member
loosus said:
I just saw the minecart level...

HOLY SHIT. :lol I figured that GAF was just overreacting, so I had to see it for myself. No, GAF is right on the fucking money. That level is so fucking terrible.

In addition to the obvious rotating bullshit and the minecart itself, why the hell do so many modern Sonic games put you through like 4 unavoidable springs just to get you to a new area? For example, in the video, the minecart touches one spring, which springs him into like 3 or 4 other springs, which effectively puts him in a new area of the level. But why do it that way? Is it for the "Oh bro, now that is FAST phew dawg glad I got this game!" crowd or what?

Pretty much.
 

Sciz

Member
jman2050 said:
You all realize there's Casino Street leaked stuff out now, right?

EDIT - And as what seems to be a general trend, Act 2 a is a bullshit gimmick act. As it stands, it seems Dimps still has some good level design in them, it's just going to be ruined because Sonic controls like ass.
Every once in a while it seems like Dimps actually gets it, and then every time they promptly proceed to demonstrate that they have no idea why any of these set pieces were fun to begin with.

And they're still doing the wretched "absurd bullshit that you can't possibly get through on your first life suspended over a deep bottomless pit" shtick to boot.

Ten years of developing Sonic games and these people haven't learned a thing.
 
I dislike act 3 of casino, feels too much like a forced route and seems to have overused cannons to progress.

Also what an easy boss, at least in sonic 2 if you used a flipper you lost nearly all air control, here you get it easy.
 

Teknoman

Member
Sciz said:
Every once in a while it seems like Dimps actually gets it, and then every time they promptly proceed to demonstrate that they have no idea why any of these set pieces were fun to begin with.

And they're still doing the wretched "absurd bullshit that you can't possibly get through on your first life suspended over a deep bottomless pit" shtick to boot.

Ten years of developing Sonic games and these people haven't learned a thing.

To be fair, there arent many bottomless pits in 4ep1, and Sonic 1 had a decent length in Spring yard and I believe Starlight.
 
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