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Kotaku's 7 month investigation into Star Citizen's development
- Thread starter Widge
- Start date
There are a lot of things in life I will never make declarative statements on, but one of those things I am comfortable definitively saying is that Derek Smart is 100% full of shit.
About anything, really.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
What light? What truth?
They wrote virtually nothing outside of a couple of personal anecdotes that most of us watching closely didn't already know.
It's just that most people don't pay attention so to them this is all new and shocking outrageous information.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
That's what "We Humans" call a "vested interest".
ScatheZombie
Member
Developers (myself included) have come forward and done this multiple times over across dozens of different games. Kotaku has even run articles about them. Jason Schreier is literally writing a book about it (sort of).
No one is picking on Star Citizen specifically if that is your implication. This all sounds par for the course. There's nothing even remotely unbelievable in the whole article. Chris Roberts being a brilliant but crazy person that doesn't understand feature creep, reasonable goals, proper deadlines, or how to take "No" for an answer is literally every Creative Director I have ever worked with.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
That's what I call honesty. Something of a rare commodity around these parts.
Tell that to the guy who spent nearly $13,000. Nah they aren't picking on it I agree. It's a good article imo.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
My only personal comment on this entire thing is I hope it helps push forward better conditions for employees in the entire industry.
Sadly employee protections have been largely stripped in NA in this post Union economy.
Sadly employee protections have been largely stripped in NA in this post Union economy.
As a fellow long time fan (Citizen#34115), you're coming off a little strong. Chill bro.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
I'm right here.
It's funny that you, and people like you, create strawman you can easily knock down as soon as someone stands up and is willing to engage you directly.
But hey at least everyone here can see it.
Zalusithix
Member
I'm not sure if it's bravery that causes you to flaunt that in a thread where people are hung up on the higher package tiers, or if it's a result of your seeming feeling of superiority over "virtually" everybody else on the forum.
I mean, you're hardly the first person on GAF to have been following the game from the get go. You might want to tone down the ego a bit.
I was just pointing out a not inconsiderable sum that certainly effects the tone of that post. The article is about the trouble inside the developer which is inevitable on a project this large but certainly a thing that needs looked at. Stuff like long term crunching and chaotic working environments are very common in huge projects but it's important to have this stuff out there as it can have a pretty significant impact on how the project is viewed post launch.
For something this interesting (and SC certainly is), we need these types of stories so we have a lot of different perspectives at all stages of development.
From all accounts, this article is pretty fair so your tone that they are just riding the hate wave to get clicks is very clearly influenced by your investment. Feel free to correct what's wrong but unabashed commitment is just as poisonous as unadulterated hate.
People don't like these articles because they are "haters." They like them because it's an interesting look at development. Full speed ahead is not inherently interesting. This project feels a lot like GTA 5 which is apt since both in terms of budget and scope, it's comparable. All of the problems outlined in this article read very close to stories we had coming out of Rockstar regarding that game.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
Heaven forbid we accidentally besmirch the professionally outraged.
LurkerPrime
Member
Troubled development isn't a death sentence for a video game, but at the same time it isn't fair to just dismiss that Star Citizen's development is noticeably troubled. I mean, those testimonials aren't what you hear from games that are on track. It sounds more like The Bureau: XCOM Declassified than XCOM: Enemy Unknown, for example; but in the end the final product could be on either end of the reception scale.
Just look at Overwatch. It was a failed project--the Titan MMO that never was--until they took it in an entirely different direction. But up until it started being premiered, gameplay-wise, there was little reason for people to be optimistic about its chances. Like, I'm not saying Star Citizen will pull a redirect, just that it will be much easier to look up to when it finally starts coming together publicly.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
It's ironic you use the word "professional" to refer to others, when you are the only one in the thread with an (outspoken) monetary commitment to any outcome related to the success or failure of the development of this game.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
No.
I'm not going to spend the next 10 hours writing up a rebuttal. Besides most of the mistakes they made has to do with what they glossed over or left out entirely. The rest is opinion.
The reason they do it this way is because of the laws in the UK that deal with papers printing falsehoods. So this is the alternative. Honestly it's better than what you have in the US as a result of those laws but you have to know this going into articles like that.
Also at this point I still haven't said a single thing besides wishing for the employees to be treated better in the industry and hoping this article brings that further to light.
I purposefully painted a target on my chest so people would have a chance to get burning questions answered.
No. They don't care about that. It's far easier to jump to conclusions because I have said virtually nothing except being open to questions.
You literally did the exact same thing just now. You created a narrative of me you can apply yourself to because I refused to, and continue to refuse to create.
Truth is a three edged sword. Your side, their side and the truth.
I'm not here to mislead or lie to anyone and that could easily be held against me or proven in most cases.
But I will also not suffer fools so those people get called out for their misbehavior.
Fascinating back and forth so far. Nobody wants to clear anything up only to light a flame.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
I dismissed nothing. I have not even offered my opinion on that because opinions are like... well.
As for the second part yeah you could be right who knows. That's all in the wind at this point.
Pops Maellard
Member
It's 2016, and I'm still not playing Star Citizen.
The situation is exactly as dire as the article implies.
That's why you write articles like this and get a lot of different perspectives. And my narrative was formed by your lamentations and chest beating about how mean everybody is and people just wanna hate and everyone is liars, big meanies!
Usually, when I want to clear something up, I clear it up by addressing it instead of asking people to ask me to address it. You don't have to address everything if there's "too much" but just hit your big points and address other stuff point by point as people mention it.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
I also want Canada to succeed in trade negotiations over other countries.
That doesn't mean I can't/won't criticize harshly the economic direction of the government regardless of which party is in charge or wishing them to loose a certain major Supreme Court of Canada case.
There is such a thing as being painfully analytic and frank. Some mistake that for other things because they are too used to seeing those other things.
At what point would original benefactors or patrons of the game's development begin to be concerned? 7 years without a playable game, 10 years? Doesn't matter? I know 5 years is within the realm of reasonable AAA game development, but it seems like they have a lot more work to do even to launch the SP campaign.
It's playable right now.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
That's why you write articles like this and get a lot of different perspectives. And my narrative was formed by your lamentations and chest beating about how mean everybody is and people just wanna hate and everyone is liars, big meanies!
Usually, when I want to clear something up, I clear it up by addressing it instead of asking people to ask me to address it. You don't have to address everything if there's "too much" but just hit your big points and address other stuff point by point as people mention it.
Perspectives are great. So are opinions.
The problem is all I see is a wall of incorrect information and partly informed opinion. Like I said I wouldn't know where to begin.
I did this on purpose to get people's attention. I got it.
The problem is they don't want anything cleared up and clearly nobody has any burning questions.
Well sorry but some of us work for a living so I couldn't be here when they posted it and I'm not going back through 6 pages and spending the next 6 calling people out.
It's up to people to decide if they want to ask something. Obviously I missed most of the curious and some of who are left just want a fight.
So you have nothing
I'll agree if this still holds true a year from now.
Essentially. He may have had some points initially, but anyone who's actually seen what he's been up to since knows he's just too far gone to be taken seriously, with operating what is essentially a harassment campaign against certain CIG employees.
iHaunter
Member
iHaunter
Member
And that's where the ignorance comes in.
Not sure how you can make such claims over an article you didn't read.
This was more about the strife of building a studio from the ground up, the hardships, and perseverance more than shitting on the game.
Why bother commenting and not read the article? Seems like most of the posters here didn't even bother reading it.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Uh, what?
CIG themselves promised full refunds to all backers after June 1 of this year if the game wasn't done, because they told people it would be done by the end of 2014... until late May, when they changed the TOS without notice or recourse. You are somehow claiming the clusterfuck of everything surrounding the game has not affected or tainted the game itself?
iHaunter
Member
Again, speaking without knowing the facts.
TOS still applies to the original kickstarter backers even after the change.
The backers were informed about the TOS change MONTHS before it became live. The scope changed, the time changed. They hired illfonic to do their FPS, they failed. They had to start from scratch. It's not like they predicted having $124 million dollars.
If they made the game they originally wanted, they would've had to remake entirely to keep up with today's graphical standards, which they're trying to push. The only thing that taints the game is ignorance, which you've just demonstrated.
Also, read the article.
Really great article.
Like the article covered. This protect seems like the beginning was just a perfect storm for development hell. New studio, management that's out of their depth and learning on the job. Combined with the desire to do something that pushes the boundaries. Things started messy, good people got burnt out.
Yet by the sounds of it. Development has become streamlined. Management more organised, and the impossible (or at least the unlikely) is being done.
Like the article covered. This protect seems like the beginning was just a perfect storm for development hell. New studio, management that's out of their depth and learning on the job. Combined with the desire to do something that pushes the boundaries. Things started messy, good people got burnt out.
Yet by the sounds of it. Development has become streamlined. Management more organised, and the impossible (or at least the unlikely) is being done.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
That's up to each person to decide for themselves. Nobody can tell them.
That said it sounds like you have a good grasp of the average AAA turnaround in development which is about 5 years.
As for how much further they have to go? That depends on what we are talking about. Star Citizen: Squadron 42 or the Star Citizen: Persistent Universe?
Lets look at just one aspect. FPS.
FPS: Animation and vision stabilization needs to go through a polish (weeks to a month maybe more)
FPS: FPS EVA is missing an entire feature (push/pull) that appears linked to grabby hands. Grabby hands first implementation is coming with 3.0 with the Merchant/Pirate/Bounty Hunter/Mercenary Job. (months)
FPS: Injury/medic job mechanic does not appear to be something slated for 2.6 or even 3.0. It may require a refactoring and polish pass. (months)
FPS: Infiltration mechanic implementation and possible animation refactor and polish (months)
FPS: Character final facial implementation including customization (months).
FPS: New netcode. Current netcode is not viable for a released game. StarNetwork 1.0 is slated for 3.0. It will obviously require testing and polish. (months).
This could be cumulative in nature. Beginning to see a pattern?
Now some of these might be implemented at the same time but lets assume worst case scenario and it's in waves which requires time for a full polish pass before it even hits PTU. CIG may hold entire features back if they require too much animation rework and do them all in one go to save time but that may hold entire features back from player testing and nobody would see progress for many months.
Depending on which of any of the FPS features above is required for SQ42 that will push SQ42 release back.
Here are things they will absolutely need for SQ42 single player. The rest we aren't 100% sure:
1: Final Animation and Vision Stabilization
2: Infiltration
3: Final character facial implementation
I left Injury/medic off since that's a question mark at this point. EVA push/pull will be needed for the PU but they could do SQ42 without it and it's not clear it's absolutely necessary. Same story with Grabby Hands. Netcode is not required for SQ42. It will unlock multiplayer Co-Op major missions from the SQ42 story you can play with friends and for that you need netcode but you can release SQ42 without it.
Of the above 3 they are closest with #1 for completion. Ivo Herzeg who came up with much of this tech and is implementing it had an interview with Brian Chambers (Director at the CIG German office) and based on that I would say they are very close. You can watch that here.
FPS Infiltration we know nothing about other than it's a requirement for SQ42 to launch.
Character facial implementation they talked a lot about this week and was a feature of this weeks 10FTC Special. Here is an earlier video on it from 2 weeks ago as background information so you can see where they are.
Here is the 10FTC Special that deep dives into characters.
Based on the above there is no reasonable way they can make a SQ42 release for 2016. Even if they completed all features midnight tonight and the entire community did nothing but testing between now and mid December when CIG goes on vacation it's not enough time to give the game a "Naughty Dog" polish.
Knowing this and knowing that SQ42 will no doubt launch before the Persistent Universe does there is no Star Citizen in 2016.
Star Citizen has been in what most AAA developers would consider development for just under 4 years. Also most AAA developers have existing employees, culture and most people know each other well enough to be approachable to solve problems as a group instead of working against one another which happens in the outset. Basically people know what to expect.
It's easy to compare budgets with 20/20 hindsight without taking everything else into account. It's professionally called growing pains. It's not so easy to compare CIG to other studios outside of the budget. The closest comparison I can think of is CDPR since they grew from around 50-60 employees to well over 200+ for the Witcher 3 and ended up having to sell out a bit to afford that huge influx. But even they had a core development group that worked like clockwork.
CIG hasn't had any of the sort until the German office was formed in very late 2014 with just a dozen plus people in practically a closet at first but these people worked together in many cases for 10+ years. What a difference.
It's up to each person to decide if you want to give them a little break or not while they caught up as a company.
I don't know when SQ42 will launch. With only two major features missing yet one seemingly well in hand but the other completely unknown it's impossible to judge. 2017 seems reasonable but when I wouldn't trust any specific dates even the ones CIG will release at CitizenCon. Remember what I showed above. It's not that simple to get from a tech to release. It takes money and time.
Let me repeat that. Do not put any hope into release dates given by CIG at CitizenCon or any hints at release dates.
Final reminder. I brought up FPS only. I did not bring up other systems that could further delay SQ42.
And this is why it's hard to reply to generic questions when you know a lot about something.
Sausage_Carius
Banned
Projection appears to be common here.
iHaunter
Member
This is quite true, especially when considering a "Proper" development cycle. Though it is CIG's fault for over-promising on such a short time scale. The tech they showed is really impressive, but is tech none-the-less until it's fully fleshed out in our hands.
I think Illfonic really screwed CIG greatly on this, having a team not being able to actually create the FPS aspect of the game as CIG promised, which is pointed out several times, development cycles. CIG essentially had to re-develop the entire FPS side of things in-house to get to be 3rd and 1st person. There's many videos demonstrating how difficult is actually is to do.
Most AAA start with several hundred employees with systems already in place and still some games take 7 years to release. I think it's impressive that CR was able to build a studio in a few years that already reached tech that people though wasn't possible, but I still think that SC Universe has a long way to go.
I expect SQ42 to be released maybe Q2 of 2017. Though it looks like the story and script is already completed from the development side. They just need to polish it up, which can take exceedingly long considering they're still waiting on tech.
SQ42 is apparently playable from start to finnish.
Agreed 2017 release is likely, should be interesting ride to release.
ForsakenLotus
Member
Thanks OP, this is a shockingly in depth article and I'm glad you made a thread about it.
Regardless of your idea of fun, which is obviously subjective, at least there *is* a game in Elite, the way they're rolling out new features seems much healthier.
sciencerob
Member
I will confirm that as someone who loves space opera themes I still find it ridiculous that they would sell (and someone would actually buy) an item for a game that isn't even finished for an amount past 10k. I just can't get past that, it seems simply idiotic.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Why would you spend that much on a game?
You could buy many games for that amount.
CecilRousso
Member
Very interesting read. Especially the parts about what The Order and Kingdom Come meant for this game.
Chris Roberts might be very proud over that he says that he proved to the team that it could be done, but it says a lot about this project that those things were considered an important thing for (what at least was) a Space Combat game.
Chris Roberts might be very proud over that he says that he proved to the team that it could be done, but it says a lot about this project that those things were considered an important thing for (what at least was) a Space Combat game.
WaterAstro
Member
Freelancer. Never forget.
Actually everyone probably forgot he promised Star Citizen back in 1999. Bailed and left the studio when they ran out of money, got bought by Microsoft, and Microsoft told him to slim down his original idea.
And we got a great game
This is a really fantastic article. Fair.
I mean... it sounds like Roberts is seriously fucking it up. But at least the money isn't just paying for strippers or something. They are trying to do things. Stupid things in many cases -- but things nonetheless. I'm actually more optimistic they might make something kind of cool.
I mean... it sounds like Roberts is seriously fucking it up. But at least the money isn't just paying for strippers or something. They are trying to do things. Stupid things in many cases -- but things nonetheless. I'm actually more optimistic they might make something kind of cool.
It's because they want to shit on Star Citizen with out any facts.
Would you say..... you're an expert?
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