https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tradition-of-zwarte-piet-is-racist-and-weird/
Good to see the Dutch may finally be doing away with this.
Good to see the Dutch may finally be doing away with this.
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The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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Blue Ninja
Member
It's a dying tradition, but it's gonna take years for it to disappear entirely. I have to work on a Sinterklaas event with some people who still cling firmly to the old stereotype, it's something that won't go away overnight. But even people like that realize it's going to happen sooner rather than later. We're still going to be seeing threads about this for years to come.
I'm a big fan of the portrayal they used in the film last year. Not black but smudged with soot.
I'm a big fan of the portrayal they used in the film last year. Not black but smudged with soot.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Zwarte Piet thread gets earlier and earlier every year.
Just wait. It will come in the form of trivialization about intent, tradition etc. Not that those conversations are wholly without any merit, but I think even a lot of well meaning Dutch people forget that it was racist to begin with, rather than something that now appears racist in a modern context.
Wouldn't want to taint that wonderfully racist celebration!
ClosingADoor
Member
It's going to be eased out slowly over the years I think. It's not like everyone suddenly will go "let's not do this anymore" because the ombudswoman says so.
Kind of sad the parents make such a big deal out of it all. Kids don't care either way, so just be done with it. Time change. Traditions change. And that is how it should be.
Kind of sad the parents make such a big deal out of it all. Kids don't care either way, so just be done with it. Time change. Traditions change. And that is how it should be.
Yes, fist fights amidst children is a far better alternative.
You dont understand!
It's a cultural thing!
It's heritage!
It's supposed to be fun!
Racism doesnt exist over here!
I have black friends!
I see them as both being bad, whereas you see the racist tradition as a fucking celebration.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Not sure whether we still do blackface for caroling on twelfth day here.
It's going to take a lot of time. There's a lot of hidden racism boiling up lately, with this being a major catalyst.
Dude Abides
Banned
The only reason they did the right thing was fear?
NealMcCauley
Member
Pretty sure this was skipped over in elementary school when we learned about how other countries celebrate Christmas. Glad it seems to be on the decline.
His monologue in Collateral was the first time I heard about the practice and legend. Honestly thought he was just making it up to intimidate Foxx's character.
His monologue in Collateral was the first time I heard about the practice and legend. Honestly thought he was just making it up to intimidate Foxx's character.
sir_kevith
Member
I don't think the defense force has much of an argument because it's not just about Zwarte Piet. I visited Amsterdam for the first time and loved it but I noticed that imagery elsewhere around the city. I noticed a big blackface character adorning the top of an import trinket type of store that wasn't Zwarte Piet so it goes beyond that character.
Octavianus
Banned
That's because it's a seperate holiday and they celebrate both.
spons
Gold Member
I don't want to be sensitive about this but I feel attacked by this statement. We're not some glob of people all with the exact same opinions and views. A professional outlet should know better.
A lot of people are against racism here and many of them are against the stereotypes portrayed in the character of Black Pete, but you should really not marginalize a country of almost 17 million people as "the Dutch".
It's obviously racist with how they Zwarte Piet often (some exceptions though). But growing up as a kid I always just thought he was black from the soot of the chimney rather then being racially black. I never even made the connection until a few years ago when the controversy about it started and decided to look into it since it's not really a holiday I celebrate anymore (which as a kid was just an excuse for presents >.>)
I am Dutch and i am black. And i never thought Zwarte Piet was a racist thing. Still dont.
Alot of my black friends dont either. It all started when suddenly a small group found it racist and went very vocal about 2 years ago. When i was young i never had the feeling they were a "lblack help" Zwarte Piet was cool, they were doing great stunts and all i knew was that they were black because they went through the chimney to deliver the presents. Me and my friends black and white dressed up like them and went door to door. I even put make up on to look like that i went through the chimney. Because that is what the make up is for not make up to look like a black person.
Alot of my black friends dont either. It all started when suddenly a small group found it racist and went very vocal about 2 years ago. When i was young i never had the feeling they were a "lblack help" Zwarte Piet was cool, they were doing great stunts and all i knew was that they were black because they went through the chimney to deliver the presents. Me and my friends black and white dressed up like them and went door to door. I even put make up on to look like that i went through the chimney. Because that is what the make up is for not make up to look like a black person.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I can see zwarte piet disappearing pretty soon in the cities, especially the randstad area, but rural areas will probably take another generation.
Personally I feel indifferent. I'm not invested in the celebration of Sinterklaas and I don't care how nowadays kids/parents experience it. It always like a commercial, materialistic celebration to me. Well I guess it's good to give retailers a boost I guess.
Personally I feel indifferent. I'm not invested in the celebration of Sinterklaas and I don't care how nowadays kids/parents experience it. It always like a commercial, materialistic celebration to me. Well I guess it's good to give retailers a boost I guess.
The Albatross
Member
While your point is fine and correct, I find it hard to believe that you haven't cast a wide net before around a large number of people as well, e.g., "Americans," "British," "Europeans," etc. I don't think that poster's thought that the Dutch are getting rid of this character (maybe) implies that the whole group of people have the exact same opinions.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
War on Sinterklaas!
KaiserBecks
Member
Ah, it's that time of year again. Yeah, they'll totally realize it this year. Totally.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
And this is how most people in the Netherlands (and I suspect even more people in Flanders) look at Zwarte Piet.
ClosingADoor
Member
I've lived here for ten years in the city and can't remember any instance of me coming across racist caricatures like that. Hardly things you find everywhere.
spons
Gold Member
It made me feel like I'm part of the problem. It feels uncalled for, but maybe I'm just overreaching here. I'm not going to lie about never doing it, but this is the literal title of an article in a professional outlet, not my hastily-written opinion on things. A lot of people are going to read this.
It's like pepernoten in the store.
Anyway, as a Dutchman: yes, it's racist. No people that used to celebrate it years ago aren't racists because they celebrated it back then. Yes it needs to change. Society changes, so do culture and traditions. Fuck the 'BUT OUR CULTURE!!!'
GasProblem
Member
My personal opinion is that it's easy to change, kids don't care, and a part of our society feels discriminated because of it, so why not change it?
Went to a local shop (Action) and it already had Sinterklaas decorations out, like garlands and napkins etc. To my surpise the Petes where white or very light brown, no black Petes anymore. So it is changing.
Went to a local shop (Action) and it already had Sinterklaas decorations out, like garlands and napkins etc. To my surpise the Petes where white or very light brown, no black Petes anymore. So it is changing.
Nah. Zwarte Piet is quite simply a racist caricature. The way he's typically depicted is clearly based on a racist stereotype of black people. Curly hair, bright red lips and a solid, dark brown skin colour has absolutely nothing to do with goddamn chimneys. When my dad first got to the Netherlands he and several other African refugees were actually approached to play Zwarte Piet for a Sinterklaas celebration at a local church. Let's not pretend the image of Zwarte Piet is not associated with black people.
Was about to say this. Then again, you can already buy pepernoten and kruidnoten in stores...
sir_kevith
Member
I never said it was everywhere but that imagery seemed to be accepted and I'm guessing it starts with zwart piet cause i seen it on like 3-4 buildings and some trinkets in giftshops. I seen like dudes with turbans and black face on some little characters at a gift shop. I was just wandering in and out of shops as a dumb tourist.
The Albatross
Member
For instance, there are 43,000,000 results in Google from the WAshington Post that begin with "Americans..." and then represent a general cultural opinion or some wide-cast net.
The BBC has a great article called "Why are Americans so obsessed with guns?" As an American, I'm not obsessed with guns, but there are many Americans who are. Am I part of the problem with "America's" gun obsession? Maybe, but probably not. I don't see this as a direct criticism of me, I see it as an article generally written about Americans which is generally true.
I dunno, I don't think the title is a personal criticism of individual Dutch people. But that "many Dutch are realizing Black Pete is racist." Like the gun article from the BBC today, not all Dutch support the black pete character, but it is generally representative of Dutch culture.
Hopefully things will change (mostly) peacefully. The violent protests from both sides were really ruining something that is supposed to be a kids holiday.
Christmas and Sinterklaas are two completely seperate things that just happen to both be in December.
🎤
🎵🎵I see a white dude and I want to paint him black🎵🎵
🌚
But seriously, good to finally see some progression there.
When I was young there was also something similar similar here in Germany (Nikolaus with his "schwarzer Peter", which is almost one on one the same), but we're got rid of it somewhere between the late 80s-mid 90s.
.... Not that you don't see it here and there again, but it is majorly of the shelf.
Good riddance.
🎵🎵I see a white dude and I want to paint him black🎵🎵
🌚
But seriously, good to finally see some progression there.
When I was young there was also something similar similar here in Germany (Nikolaus with his "schwarzer Peter", which is almost one on one the same), but we're got rid of it somewhere between the late 80s-mid 90s.
.... Not that you don't see it here and there again, but it is majorly of the shelf.
Good riddance.
Heat, obviously!
Your lips get all bruised and cut up from the rough brick interior of the chimney stack and of course all that heat and steam cause people's hair to curl. Duh
I didn't even realise they had red lips and curly hair until I knew Sinterklaas actually didn't exist. I was twelve then, and just didn't care about their looks. I cared about them because they gave me presents.
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