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IntelliHeath · Apr 14, 2012

PounchEnvy said:
Bring in some Advance Wars/Battalion Wars representation. I dunno. For a series based around Nintendo All-Stars and a celebration of its history, Snake really doesn't belong there.

I may be biased because I love to play as Snake on brawl. He's unique and fun character. I don't see how people think he don't deserve to be in the game if we already have about 4 or 5 metal gear games on nintendo consoles. Plus Metal Gear franchise started on Nintendo, sorta.

Thores · Apr 14, 2012

IntelliHeath said:
I'm planning to make one soon because I have bad feeling that I will be very busy next 6 weeks. Yeah, I will make new thread because it would be easier for me to keep track of the roster lists but I need to typing up the rules first and get some kind of feedbacks from yall here.

Honestly, I think it's still a bit too early for a full fledged prediction thread. In my case, I feel like I wouldn't be able to come up with anything even remotely accurate until I at least know what Wii U's early lineup is going to be like, and what Nintendo's focuses are going to be for the next year or so. Plus, between stuff like Miyamoto apparently working on a new IP and Pokemon releases/reveals seemingly being expedited so Gen 6 can come sooner, there's gonna be a significant amount of things we can't predict about SSB4 yet. I think that the soonest we should see a prediction thread is after E3 2012. We might even have an idea of an SSB4 release window at that point, which would make it way easier to guage things and guess properly.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Including multiple characters per third-party franchise (Tails, etc.) would ruin the desired effect of having guests in the first place. Snake is the icon of Konami and Sonic is the icon of Sega. Additional characters would just muddy the water.

IntelliHeath · Apr 14, 2012

Thores said:
Honestly, I think it's still a bit too early for a full fledged prediction thread. In my case, I feel like I wouldn't be able to come up with anything even remotely accurate until I at least know what Wii U's early lineup is going to be like, and what Nintendo's focuses are going to be for the next year or so. Plus, between stuff like Miyamoto apparently working on a new IP and Pokemon releases seemingly being expedited so Gen 6 can come sooner, there's gonna be a significant amount of things we can't predict about SSB4 yet. I think that the soonest we should see a prediction thread is after E3 2012. We might even have an idea of an SSB4 release window at that point, which would make it way easier to guage things and guess properly.

I understand that and I agreed with your point. I have a concern about people knowing first 3-5 new characters from e3 trailer if it happens. It might cause a problem for my point system because people would already know first 5-10 characters if the pattern from previous smash would happen again. Also e3 made it easier for me to set up the deadline for prediction contest but I could try and adjust if majority agreed to wait until after e3.

Chance of Nintendo show trailer at e3 going to happen is low; because Sakurai just started his smash project.

Azure J · Apr 14, 2012

Wait, IH's working on a prediction thread and not an official "GAF votes"/forwarded to Sakurai kinda deal?

On third parties: Megaman is really the big one. Although I would love to see Square donate someone to the cause too. Chrono's my top pick on that front while Neku (TWEWY) is my "holy shit YES but never ever happening" pick.

Beyond that, I'm neither for or against more as long as they're not shoehorned in.

Thores · Apr 14, 2012

IntelliHeath said:
I understand that and I agreed with your point. I have a concern about people knowing first 3-5 new characters from e3 trailer if it happens. It might cause a problem for my point system because people would already know first 5-10 characters if the pattern from previous smash would happen again. Also e3 made it easier for me to set up the deadline for prediction contest but I could try and adjust if majority agreed to wait until after e3.

Chance of Nintendo show trailer at e3 going to happen is low; because Sakurai just started his smash project.

I guess that's a fair concern. Maybe if you release it before E3, have a rule where people that enter are allowed to change their projected rosters after the event, but if there's a teaser trailer they aren't allowed to retroactively add reveals they failed to predict.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

I'll post my latest predictions here anyway. Everyone from Brawl returns, plus

First Appearance: Pokémon Red/Green (GB, February 1996)
Latest Appearance: Pokémon Black 2/White 2 (DS, June 2012)

By far, Mewtwo is the most popular of the characters who missed the jump from Melee to Brawl. It also bugs me that he's the only non-clone character to have not made the cut. Actually, he very nearly made it into Brawl, but the last minute inclusion of Sonic is most likely what did him in. Despite the glory days of Red and Blue having passed, Mewtwo remains a recognizable and iconic Pokémon, and it's never a bad thing having more villains on the roster.

First Appearance: Wii Sports (Wii, December 2006)
Latest Appearance: Mario Kart 7 (3DS, December 2011)

In July 2005, when Sakurai finalized the Brawl planning document, Miis were over a year away from introduction. How was he to know how prevalent they would become? For better or for worse (worse), Miis are the closest thing Nintendo has had to a solid new franchise this past console generation. These things are EVERYWHERE.

First Appearance: Animal Crossing (N64, April 2001)
Latest Appearance: Animal Crossing 3D (3DS, 2012)

In the February 29, 2008 issue of Famitsu, Sakurai said that he was thinking about including the playable character from Animal Crossing (using a shovel and net), but in the end he had to prioritize and include other characters who more closely fit the "image" of Super Smash Bros. With those priority characters out of the way, it's probable that the Animal Crossing character has reemerged at the top of Sakurai's list of candidates. It's also worth noting that since the completion of the Brawl planning document, Animal Crossing has gained a feature film, a Wii game, and an upcoming 3DS game. It's one of Nintendo's biggest franchises.

First Appearance: Punch-Out!! (NES, November 1987)
Latest Appearance: Punch-Out!! (Wii, July 2009)

Some people were surprised that Little Mac wasn't included in Brawl, but now that Punch-Out!! has been "revived" with a new Wii game, there's a good chance that we'll see him in SSB4. He's a fairly iconic Nintendo character (especially in the West).

First Appearance: Metroid (FDS, August 1986)
Latest Appearance: Metroid: Other M (Wii, September 2010)

By this point, Sakurai probably realizes that there's a lot of demand for Ridley as a playable character. He's also made two major appearances since Brawl. Oh, and he isn't too big.

First Appearance: Paper Mario (N64, August 2000)
Latest Appearance: Paper Mario 3D (3DS, 2012)

There are three Paper Mario games with a fourth in development, and the series has become Intelligent Systems' flagship franchise next to Fire Emblem. He'd make for a fun rival to Mr. Game & Watch.

First Appearance: Kid Icarus (FDS, December 1986)
Latest Appearance: Kid Icarus: Uprising (3DS, March 2012)

Sakurai just finished one of his most ambitious works yet, a revival of the classic Kid Icarus. Next to Pit, Palutena is the most important and most recurring character in the series. For that matter, Kid Icarus is actually called "Palutena's Mirror" in Japan. She's the Princess Zelda of the franchise.

First Appearance: Pokémon Black/White (DS, September 2010)
Latest Appearance: Pokémon Black 2/White 2 (DS, June 2012)

It's common sense that there's going to be a new Pokémon character, and generation six is a long ways off. Seriously, Sakurai doesn't plan that far ahead with his rosters; Brawl's was finalized on July 7, 2005, and the game didn't come out until 2008. Ultimately, it comes down to Zoroark and Victini. Historically, all of the cutesy Victini-like legendaries have been relegated to Poké Ball summons, so who knows. Zoroark is essentially the Lucario of Black and White.

Only Appearance: Fire Emblem: Awakening (3DS, April 2012)

Between Roy and Ike, it's obvious that Sakurai likes to represent the latest Fire Emblem games with a playable character. With DLC on tap for Awakening, not to mention any future projects in the Intelligent Systems pipeline, it's unlikely that we'll see the next installment in the series until 2014-2015. The Zoroark entry explains Sakurai's commitment to an early roster selection.

First Appearance: The Mysterious Murasame Castle (FDS, April 1986)
Latest Appearance: Samurai Warriors 3 (Wii, December 2009)

Melee had Ice Climbers and Brawl had Pit; who's going to be SSB4's NES revival character? Takamaru has experienced a resurgence of sorts over the last few years with appearances in Captain Rainbow and Samurai Warriors 3, and just as Pit is the "sister" character to Samus, Takamaru is the "sister" character to Link. Even though he's entirely unknown in the West, Murasame Castle is well-regarded in Japan.

First Appearance: Sheriff (AC, 1979)
Latest Appearance: WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$! (GBA, March 2003)

In addition to the retro NES characters, Sakurai has included an unexpected "historical" character in each installment since Melee (Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.), and who's more historic than Nintendo's first video game character? Not only that, but Sheriff is also the first character designed by Shigeru Miyamoto! He's the Oswald the Lucky Rabbit to Mario's Mickey Mouse. Ideally, he'd be given a 3D model based off the old advertisement/concept art and not be sprite-based. He'd be a lighthearted "joke" character who uses a pistol, lasso, and dynamite in comical, over-the-top ways. He'd even enter the fight on his horse.

First Appearance: Mega Man (NES, December 1987)
Latest Appearance: Mega Man 10 (WiiWare, March 2010)

Assuming Snake and Sonic come back, Mega Man seems to be the favorite third-party newcomer. In terms of major Japanese third-party publishers, there's Square Enix, Capcom, and Namco Bandai left. Slime and/or Pac-Man are possible, but they don't have nearly the fan demand or move set potential that Mega Man does.

So yeah, including transformations, that's 51 playable characters in all. Sorry for such a long post. Of course, come E3, I'll probably be doing my list all over again, but this is all based on current knowledge and Sakurai's past roster selections.

Varjet · Apr 14, 2012

Green Scar said:
There is no Nintendo character that could have Snake's moveset.

Raymond Bryce would work for the most part.

JazzmanZ · Apr 14, 2012

Little Mac was in brawl as an assist trophy...

Also really doubt Sakurai will use an Animal crossing character and Sheriff in the next game.

He's already gone on record stating Animal crossing doesn't really have any good characters to be a fighter in one of his iwata asks.

And Sheriff...why go for him when theres other characters like Balloon fighter or the Mach rider?

SmithnCo · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
I'll post my latest predictions here anyway. Everyone from Brawl returns, plus…

I love these suggestions, they are pretty much what I would pick for newcomers.

The Animal Crossing character is particularly interesting, I've always thought a character that used the tools from that game would be cool. For instance, the fishing rod could be used for a ranged throw/grappling. If not the generic player character they could also use Tom Nook.

It's up in the air I guess if Sakurai would want an AC character to fight but I think it'd be cool.

JazzmanZ said:
Little Mac was in brawl as an assist trophy...

I think he's one of the most likely newcomers. Punch-Out!! is a pretty recognizable series that deserves a rep.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

I think having Zoroark and Krom alongside Lucario and Ike would be redundant. For the 5th generation, I would much rather see any other Pokemon besides Zoroark. Marth is also a major character in FE13, so I think he could represent FE13 (much like how Ike represented both FE9 and FE10).

I actually think N might be a good choice for a Pokemon newcomer to represent Black/White if returns as a major character for Black/White 2.

As for Fire Emblem, I think Sakurai is simply going to bring back Roy. The reasoning behind this is that he was planned for Brawl (and there is a strong precedent for Sakurai returning to unfinished character ideas) and due to the very strong demand in Japan for his return (where is one of the two most wanted characters for Smash 4).

Thores · Apr 14, 2012

Ced, that's a really solid list. There's a couple things I disagree with here and there, but it's both realistic and has a decent amount of variety. Some of my own notes:

- I had sort of stopped even considering Animal Crossing as having playable candidates since Sakurai explicitly said after Brawl's release that it didn't really fit. But its increased relevance and popularity are a good point. I do think however that the Player Character, even as a pair, is a bit bland and kind of an awkward choice because they never have one specific appearance, they're always customized by the player. A more iconic and consistent character in the series might be a better addition, like K. K. Slider or Resetti.

- I wouldn't necessarily disagree with Krom, but since every character from Brawl is returning in your scenario, it seems a bit off to have him and Marth and Ike all playable in the same game. Just seems like blue haired swordsman overkill. I think there'll be a new Fire Emblem rep in the next game, but I also think that they might just give Marth his Awakening costume and represent the new game in the series that way.

- Even excluding Gen 6 from the picture, a more fitting playable Gen 5 Pokemon might be Genesect. He has the potential for a unique moveset, and he's probably going to be revealed by this time next year. Meaning he'll be one of the most topical choices for new Pokemon addition when Sakurai puts his planning document together, which is pretty similar to what the situation was during Brawl's development.

-Sheriff is an awesome idea. I don't know how likely he really is, but I kinda hope it happens now.

Anyway yeah, still one of the better lists I've seen on this thread. Well done, man.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
I think having Zoroark and Krom alongside Lucario and Ike would be redundant. For the 5th generation, I would much rather see any other Pokemon besides Zoroark. Marth is also a major character in FE13, so I think he could represent FE13 (much like how Ike represented both FE9 and FE10).

I actually think N might be a good choice for a Pokemon newcomer to represent Black/White if returns as a major character for Black/White 2.

As for Fire Emblem, I think Sakurai is simply going to bring back Roy. The reasoning behind this is that he was planned for Brawl (and there is a strong precedent for Sakurai returning to unfinished character ideas) and due to the very strong demand in Japan for his return (where is one of the two most wanted characters for Smash 4).

How is Roy, an irrelevant Marth clone, any less redundant than Krom? Roy was planned for Brawl to placate the Melee fans, but now that he's missed a game, the urgency to bring him back isn't really there.

I also don't see why Sakurai would spend an additional three character slots on N. That would also undermine the uniqueness of Pokémon Trainer.

I'm legitimately curious, by the way -- don't mistake my aggressiveness for hostility. There's no series that gets me hyped more than Smash Bros.

--

@ JazzmanZ and Thores:

Here's a translation from the 2/29/08 Famitsu (coincidentally, the same issue where Sakurai confirmed that Dixie was supposed to team up with Diddy):

"I considered adding the protagonist from Animal Crossing, but because I could only include so many characters, I had to prioritize. I decided that there were characters more suited towards the violent nature of Smash Bros., so I held off on him. It would have been possible to make him fight using things like the shovel and net, though."

Consider:

1. The decision to hold this character back was made before the release of a feature film, a Wii game, and a 3DS game.

2. Sakurai held off on character A to include B, C, and D first. Now that B, C, and D are in the series, it's logical that Sakurai would return to A.

3. Opinions change over the course of seven years. Are you the same person now that you were in 2005?

Oh, and I didn't mean that Boy and Girl would be a pair character -- sorry for the confusion. The first six costumes would be named "Boy," and there would be a second set of six named "Girl" (think WarioWare Wario and classic Wario). Or something along those lines.

leroidys · Apr 14, 2012

I don't see Zoroark getting in. I know it seems that Mewtwo and Lucario being in the games clears the way for him, but really it is the opposite. Mewtwo was doomed not to return in Brawl precisely because he was so similar to Lucario. They decided to prioritize and cut the most redundant characters (note: I'm not talking about movesets necessarily). Having a 3rd pokemon rep be so similar is just not something that I see Sakurai spending his time on.

Tyeforce · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
I'll post my latest predictions here anyway. Everyone from Brawl returns, plus…

I'd like to see most of these characters in Smash 4! Here are my thoughts on all of them:

Mewtwo: I absolutely think Mewtwo should return, though I worry that with Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Pokémon Trainer (including Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard), there may be too much Generation I representation. Perhaps they'll remove Jigglypuff and have Mewtwo take her place (I'm not a fan of removing characters except certain clones like Dr. Mario or Pichu, but honestly I don't think Jigglypuff deserves to be a playable character anymore).

Mii: YES. I will be so disappointed if Miis don't make it in. They're the biggest Nintendo representation that isn't already in Smash Bros.

Boy and Girl: I assume by both Boy and Girl you mean as alternate models, not as tag team characters like Ice Climbers. Anyway, this is probably my most wanted newcomer. And to the people who say an Animal Crossing character can't fight—why the hell not?! With their various tools they have a ton of potential for a great moveset!

Little Mac: I think he'd be a great newcomer, and he certainly deserves it. There's really no reason not to include him!

Ridley: I'm still a bit torn on this one. While I know that he could be scaled down, he just feels like more of a boss character than a playable character to me. I'd be happy if he just returned as an Adventure Mode boss.

Paper Mario: Another one of my most wanted newcomers, I think Paper Mario has huge potential. If Toon Link can get in, why can't Paper Mario? He's certainly a better choice than Dr. Mario, that's for sure.

Palutena: After playing Uprising, I absolutely agree that Palutena is the best choice for a second Kid Icarus character. Needs to happen!

Zoroark: I love Zoroark, and I'd love to see him as a playable character. He'd be a great representation for Generation V, too. The only problem is that I don't see how they would incorporate his signature Ability, Illusion, into his character. Zoroark just isn't Zoroark without Illusion, so it would be interesting to see how they would tackle his moveset.

Krom: I'm not so sure if the Fire Emblem franchise needs another playable character, but if it does get one it has to be Krom. Though that's assuming Roy doesn't return, because FOUR Fire Emblem characters would be a bit much.

Takamaru: Takamaru is another character I'd love to see. I honestly don't know much about him or his franchise, being Japanese only, but I'd love to be able to learn more about him and his world from Smash Bros. He just seems like a good fit, anyway, and he'd make a great retro character.

Sheriff: This one I'm not too sure on... He just doesn't seem to be as iconic as similar characters like Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. I suppose it could work, but I'd rather other characters get in over him.

Mega Man: The only other third party character that I really need in Smash Bros. There are a few others that would be nice to see as well, but none deserve it as much as Mega Man.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

People sure do overrate Zoroark's popularity. Hint: He's not as big as Lucario.

Gravijah said:
fox, falco and wolf are just way too similar. get rid of wolf or falco and give us someone who plays completely different.

It's already part of that cycle again about clones and such?

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
How is Roy, an irrelevant Marth clone, any less redundant than Krom? Roy was planned for Brawl to placate the Melee fans, but now that he's missed a game, the urgency to bring him back isn't really there.

I also don't see why Sakurai would spend an additional three character slots on N. That would also undermine the uniqueness of Pokémon Trainer.

I'm legitimately curious, by the way -- don't mistake my aggressiveness for hostility. There's no series that gets me hyped more than Smash Bros.

There is really strong demand for Roy's return though. On many Japanese sites, the demand for Roy's return is higher than Mewtwo's. In an an interview during the North American release of Shadow Dragon (FE11), one of the higher ups at Intelligent Systems also expressed a desire to remake FE6, citing an interest to properly introduce Roy. The other two higher-ups in the interview wanted a remake of Akaneia Senki (which happened in FE12) and Fire Emblem All-Stars (which happened with FE13). FE6 was also very well-received in Japan, and is to date still the third highest selling game in the series in Japan. I have various links that attest to Roy's Japanese popularity that I can send to you if you like.

As for N, I wrote him as a personal choice. He most likely won't happen. Also, I was not envisioning N as another Pokemon Trainer, but rather as a character that would work like how people originally imagined Red (Pokemon Trainer) prior to his Dojo unveil. Basically, a character that uses Pokemon for different attacks and fights on the battlefield.

This is what I wrote on N for my upcoming fan roster for Smash 4:

For my roster, I tried to think of whom would be the most appropriate representative for Black/White and Black/White 2. The most common names to come up to represent Generation 5 are Zoroark, Victini, and Genesect. Of those three, the only one I don't like is Zoroark, specifically due to how similar I feel he is to Lucario (I don't want to see Lucario or any other Brawl veterans cut). Victini's pluses to me where his similarity in design to Pichu and the promotion he had during Black/White's release (as well as being a favorite of the director to Black/White). I also like Genesect since he seems to be a sort of modern Mewtwo, and being a bug Pokemon, might offer something different than the other playable Pokemon so far in Smash Bros. However, with all three of these Pokemon they simply have (or will have) a fleeting moment in the spotlight, at least that is the case with Zoroark and Victini (it remains to be seen whether Genesect will possibly have another event in Black/White 2).

I really wanted to choose a character/Pokemon that could represent both Black/White and Black/White 2. I then thought of the idea of N. N was a prominent character in the original Black/White and it has been hinted that he will have some sort of role in Black/White 2. N sort of fills the playable role of both the rival and antagonist in the Pokemon games. While most people who I have seen suggest N want to incorporate him as a Pokemon Trainer 2 type character (in that he cycles through three particular Pokemon to fight for him), my idea for N would be for him to fight how people originally imagined the Pokemon Trainer (or Red as he was referred to then) to fight prior to his Dojo unveil.

N would utilize multitude of different Pokemon to fight alongside him. N himself will be standing on the battlefield, however, many of his moves will involve various Pokemon he summons (this ties into his very close relationship with Pokemon, and him being on the battlefield of Smash Bros. ties into him wanting to share their struggles alongside them). This would make N unlike any playable Pokemon already in Smash Bros., and further establish the precedent of Pokemon receiving some of the most interesting new characters in Smash Bros.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

leroidys said:
Mewtwo was doomed not to return in Brawl precisely because he was so similar to Lucario. They decided to prioritize and cut the most redundant characters (note: I'm not talking about movesets necessarily). Having a 3rd pokemon rep be so similar is just not something that I see Sakurai spending his time on.

I don't quite understand this. There isn't a single shared move between Mewtwo and Lucario (their neutral B moves look similar, but they're still different). If Sakurai added Fox, Falco, and Wolf, all of whom share a number of moves, then why couldn't he add Mewtwo, Lucario, and Zoroark, who aren't even similar to one another? Just because they're bipedal doesn't mean that they have the same attacks.

Linkhero1 · Apr 14, 2012

Did Sakurai hint at how big he wants the roster to be this time around? I wouldn't mind a huge roster (50-60 characters) as long as there are not too many clones.

SmithnCo · Apr 14, 2012

In terms of other classic characters I'd like to see in the vein of Pit and Ice Climbers, I think Mach Rider would be good. The original game is fun and I've always liked his design for his Melee trophy, so an updated version would probably look even cooler. Maybe he could use a lot of firepower like Snake and have a motorcycle move like Wario.

A Duck Hunt character would be another one that might be interesting, though that would be decidedly more "WTF."

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

Linkhero1 said:
Did Sakurai hint at how big he wants the roster to be this time around? I wouldn't mind a huge roster (50-60 characters) as long as there are not too many clones.

Sakurai has thrown around the number 50 twice in relation to the number of characters for Smash 4. The first time was an interview after Brawl's release, the second time was in an interview with Iwata after Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011. I am personally guessing there will be 52 or 53 total playable characters (this number includes transformation characters like Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, and PT's Pokemon).

Hot Coldman · Apr 14, 2012

I'll be less elegant than Ookami and say this: NO-ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT ZOROARK.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Green Scar said:
I'll be less elegant than Ookami and say this: NO-ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT ZOROARK.

I don't even like him, but it's hard to say which fifth generation Pokémon character is most likely to appear. There's no clear-cut mascot this time around like there was for Diamond and Pearl with Lucario.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

Green Scar said:
I'll be less elegant than Ookami and say this: NO-ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK ABOUT ZOROARK.

I have been saying this for a while (though with less harsh language). Zoroark is more "expected" than actually wanted. Many people are outright cynical with the idea of Zoroark. I think Victini might serve as a better choice because it seems to fit the peppy mouse-like Pokemon trope that Pichu and Plusle & Minun had.

Linkhero1 · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
Sakurai has thrown around the number 50 twice in relation to the number of characters for Smash 4. The first time was an interview after Brawl's release, the second time was in an interview with Iwata after Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011. I am personally guessing there will be 52 or 53 total playable characters (this number includes transformation characters like Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, and PT's Pokemon).

That's nice to hear. I'm pretty excited to see how this game turns out and who ends up being in it. I personally can't wait for the Smash Dojo.

leroidys · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
I don't quite understand this. There isn't a single shared move between Mewtwo and Lucario (their neutral B moves look similar, but they're still different). If Sakurai added Fox, Falco, and Wolf, all of whom share a number of moves, then why couldn't he add Mewtwo, Lucario, and Zoroark, who aren't even similar to one another? Just because they're bipedal doesn't mean that they have the same attacks.

In my post I specifically commented that I wasn't just talking about movesets. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all very different characters with different personalities that have different roles in their series.

Mewtwo, Lucario, and Zoroark are all 'badass' bipedal anthropomorphic energy using pokemon. Sakurai seems to value having a diverse lineup, and I think that, as there are almost 600 other choices, he would chose a pokeman/s that would differentiate itself more for SSB4.

SmithnCo · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
I have been saying this for a while (though with less harsh language). Zoroark is more "expected" than actually wanted. Many people are outright cynical with the idea of Zoroark. I think Victini might serve as a better choice because it seems to fit the peppy mouse-like Pokemon trope that Pichu and Plusle & Minun had.

I also like the idea of Victini more. I would rather just get Mewtwo back and call it a day, though. Unless there is some super special Pokemon they're pushing for Black and White 2.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

leroidys said:
In my post I specifically commented that I wasn't just talking about movesets. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all very different characters with different personalities that have different roles in their series.

Mewtwo, Lucario, and Zoroark are all 'badass' bipedal anthropomorphic energy using pokemon. Sakurai seems to value having a diverse lineup, and I think that, as there are almost 600 other choices, he would chose a pokeman/s that would differentiate itself more for SSB4.

You're sort of stretching those roles to fit in line with your opinion. I could very well say that Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all "badass bipedal anthropomorphic pilots" and I wouldn't be wrong. Mewtwo's positioned as a bad guy, and Lucario is far from that. Their personalities/roles aren't very similar at all.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

SmithnCo said:
I also like the idea of Victini more. I would rather just get Mewtwo back and call it a day, though. Unless there is some super special Pokemon they're pushing for Black and White 2.

I personally would be perfectly fine with Mewtwo being the only "new" Pokemon added for Smash 4, and I am sure most Smash Bros. fans would be fine with that too. Its just that I don't see Game Freak allowing Sakurai to do that. Regardless, I don't see Zoroark happening unless Sakurai decides to cut Lucario.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
I have been saying this for a while (though with less harsh language). Zoroark is more "expected" than actually wanted. Many people are outright cynical with the idea of Zoroark. I think Victini might serve as a better choice because it seems to fit the peppy mouse-like Pokemon trope that Pichu and Plusle & Minun had.

Actually, Emolga is supposed to be this generation's Pichu/Plusle & Minun (electric rodent), only it lacks the popularity that those three have. It's essentially Pikachu with the gliding mechanic attached.

G1 - Pikachu (and Raichu)
G2 - Pichu
G3 - Plusle & Minun
G4 - Pachirisu
G5 - Emogla

There seems to be a lot of fan art connecting those together:

If generation six comes along sooner than expected, Sakurai might include Emolga as an easy Pikachu semi-clone to rep Black and White (like Plusle & Minun in Brawl), but probably not.

I do think that Victini is more likely than Zoroark, though.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
I have been saying this for a while (though with less harsh language). Zoroark is more "expected" than actually wanted. Many people are outright cynical with the idea of Zoroark. I think Victini might serve as a better choice because it seems to fit the peppy mouse-like Pokemon trope that Pichu and Plusle & Minun had.

Exactly. I guess people got thrown off because Zoroark sorta looks like Lucario and even Nintendo is trying to go for the same appeal, too bad Zoroark didn't bring in much fans.

Honestly I'd rather have Scrafty (I mean, wouldn't be awesome running while holding your pants?!) but yeah most likely Victiny.

leroidys said:
Mewtwo, Lucario, and Zoroark are all 'badass' bipedal anthropomorphic energy using pokemon. Sakurai seems to value having a diverse lineup, and I think that, as there are almost 600 other choices, he would chose a pokeman/s that would differentiate itself more for SSB4.

No they're not! In fact in their games they could never be even more different. Mewtwo is a Legendary experimental pokemon and in the anime he has this clone blues. Lucario is pretty much just a nondescript pokemon given to you by a guy for helping him out, while in the anime he is this loyal dog dude angsting because his human abandoned him. Zoroark is just that dude pretending to be a human while in the anime she's a mother. Mewtwo is a psychic rather than an energy pokeyman, Lucario is that (albeit aura form), Zoroark is just a shapeshifter.

Really the only similar thing they have is that they are bipedal (to which many other Pokemon are). I guess you can argue about them starring in movies too... but then Zoroark wasn't the star in her movie.

Karsticles · Apr 14, 2012

Gravijah said:
remember when 100% of voting realgaf members voted profbeef the worst?

The worst what?

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
I do think that Victini is more likely than Zoroark, though.

Victini also has the benefit of being the favorite of the director to Black/White, though I am not sure if it means anything in relation to Smash Bros.

If there is a poster Pokemon that Game Freak decides to push hard for Black/White 2, I might bet on that Pokemon. Zoroark's movie happened in 2010, and Smash 4 is looking at a late 2014 release at the earliest.

I am surprised no one commented on my elaborated N idea. I know the character is unlikely, but assuming he is important in Black/White 2 too and he is implement how I described, I think he could be a cool character that makes sense to represent the Black/White games.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

Honestly they should just throw in Cynthia a.k.a. BEST RIVAL EVER

Sir Ilpalazzo · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
Sakurai has thrown around the number 50 twice in relation to the number of characters for Smash 4. The first time was an interview after Brawl's release, the second time was in an interview with Iwata after Smash 4 was announced at E3 2011. I am personally guessing there will be 52 or 53 total playable characters (this number includes transformation characters like Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, and PT's Pokemon).

I think it should also be mentioned that, in the latter interview, the number 50 came up when he said something like "I don't want to just make a sequel by putting in like 50 characters or tons of stages, I want to make the gameplay substantially different from the previous games", though.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
I am surprised no one commented on my elaborated N idea. I know the character is unlikely, but assuming he is important in Black/White 2 too and he is implement how I described, I think he could be a cool character that makes sense to represent the Black/White games.

How would the attacks work in a Smash Bros. environment, though? I can see that kind of instant-summoning character working in, say, a Marvel vs. Capcom 3, but there's too much going on and too much de-syncing in Smash (just look at Ice Climbers). Those are probably the same kind of technical difficulties that led to the scrapping of the Dixie & Diddy team.

Also, Zoroark is really the only Pokémon that N uses that would work in Smash Bros. in terms of recognition and feasibility. I don't think Sakurai would bother to include N's relatively unknown Pokémon just for the sake of fleshing out his move set.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
Also, Zoroark is really the only Pokémon that N uses that would work in Smash Bros. in terms of recognition and feasibility. I don't think Sakurai would bother to include N's relatively unknown Pokémon just for the sake of fleshing out his move set.

Why Zoroark? As we established, he is actually not that popular. If anything, he should have BOTH Reshiram and Zekrom.

qq more · Apr 14, 2012

Green Scar said:
Not entirely. I don't want a deluge, but Sonic and Snake can't be the only ones again... and I don't think they should be the only representatives of their franchises here.

Something like:

-Sonic/Robotnik
-Snake/Ocelot
-Mega Man/Zero

would be good enough for me.

I'm sort of against giving third parties multiple characters per franchise since they're really just guest characters.

...But at the same time I'd really kill to play as Robotnik.

EDIT: Replace Ocelot with Gray Fox then it's perfect.

leroidys · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
You're sort of stretching those roles to fit in line with your opinion. I could very well say that Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all "badass bipedal anthropomorphic pilots" and I wouldn't be wrong. Mewtwo's positioned as a bad guy, and Lucario is far from that. Their personalities/roles aren't very similar at all.

But the thing with the Starfox series is that that is all it has. You can't put in anything else because there is no alternative to badass bipedal anthropomorphic pilots.

Ookami-kun said:
Exactly. I guess people got thrown off because Zoroark sorta looks like Lucario and even Nintendo is trying to go for the same appeal, too bad Zoroark didn't bring in much fans.

Honestly I'd rather have Scrafty (I mean, wouldn't be awesome running while holding your pants?!) but yeah most likely Victiny.

No they're not! In fact in their games they could never be even more different. Mewtwo is a Legendary experimental pokemon and in the anime he has this clone blues. Lucario is pretty much just a nondescript pokemon given to you by a guy for helping him out, while in the anime he is this loyal dog dude angsting because his human abandoned him. Zoroark is just that dude pretending to be a human while in the anime she's a mother. Mewtwo is a psychic rather than an energy pokeyman, Lucario is that (albeit aura form), Zoroark is just a shapeshifter.

Really the only similar thing they have is that they are bipedal (to which many other Pokemon are). I guess you can argue about them starring in movies too... but then Zoroark wasn't the star in her movie.

I mean badass as in their appearance - they all look extreeeeeeeeeeme. I don't think their biographies are all that relevant, except for mewtwo (being a legendary, hes the only one that you could be playing supposedly). Also, energy as in using energy attacks, not their actual typing. I guess that last point doesn't actually matter that much though.

Ookami-kun said:
Well technically, Sakurai just invented kung fu fighting on them. Well, two of them - he decided Wolf grew up in a jungle/got lycanthropy. In the games Fox is far from badass - it's usually Falco and Wolf.

Yeah, I wouldn't use that term to describe them, I was just replying to cednym who described them in this way.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

leroidys said:
But the thing with the Starfox series is that that is all it has. You can't put in anything else because there is no alternative to badass bipedal anthropomorphic pilots.

Well technically, Sakurai just invented kung fu fighting on them. Well, two of them - he decided Wolf grew up in a jungle/got lycanthropy. In the games Fox is far from badass - it's usually Falco and Wolf.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Ookami-kun said:
Why Zoroark? As we established, he is actually not that popular. If anything, he should have BOTH Reshiram and Zekrom.

Zekrom and Reshiram just simply wouldn't work as playable characters. They're way too large and way too clunky. Unlike Ridley, you can't just scale them down because they have an established size in relation to the rest of the Pokémon characters (not to mention that a tiny Reshiram would look terrible).

I'm speaking strictly in terms of the Pokémon that N has. Try and tell me that Archeops and Klinklang are more popular and recognizable than Zoroark with a straight face.

Tyeforce · Apr 14, 2012

Wait, since when is Zoroark not popular?? He is without a doubt one of the most popular Generation V Pokémon. I don't understand where the claims that he's not very popular are coming from... The only other Generation V Pokémon that are probably either more or just as popular as him are the starters, the mascot legendaries, and Victini.

cednym · Apr 14, 2012

Zoroark is popular, it's just that some people don't want to see him because he reminds them too much of Mewtwo and Lucario.

Tyeforce · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
Zekrom and Reshiram just simply wouldn't work as playable characters. They're way too large and way too clunky. Unlike Ridley, you can't just scale them down because they have an established size in relation to the rest of the Pokémon characters (not to mention that a tiny Reshiram would look terrible).

To be fair, none of the Pokémon in Smash Bros. are scaled properly in relation to each other, so that reasoning doesn't work. Though it's true that Reshiram and Zekrom wouldn't make good playable characters, that's for sure.

cednym said:
Zoroark is popular, it's just that some people don't want to see him because he reminds them too much of Mewtwo and Lucario.

That I understand. But people are saying that he's just not popular. Nothing to do with his inclusion in Smash or anything. Uh...no, lol.

Boss Doggie · Apr 14, 2012

cednym said:
Zekrom and Reshiram just simply wouldn't work as playable characters. They're way too large and way too clunky. Unlike Ridley, you can't just scale them down because they have an established size in relation to the rest of the Pokémon characters (not to mention that a tiny Reshiram would look terrible).

I'm speaking strictly in terms of the Pokémon that N has. Try and tell me that Archeops and Klinklang are more popular and recognizable than Zoroark with a straight face.

Actually I wouldn't mind Reshiram/Zekrom actually being scaled (albeit the largest characters). I'm kinda used at their "size" in Pokemon anyways hahahaha

He isn't as popular as say, Victini and Lucario.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

The only other legendary Pokemon from Black/White that I think has a shot for Smash 4 is Genesect. Its the only legendary from that game not revealed yet, and its origin story makes it seem like a modern Mewtwo (basically, a Pokemon made by scientists create the world's strongest Pokemon).

I looked at the Genesect event for Black/White, and I think there is a good chance that there will be more to this Pokemon's story in Black/White 2.

There is also the possibility that Black/White 2 introduces new Pokemon.

Tyeforce · Apr 14, 2012

Ookami-kun said:
He isn't as popular as say, Victini and Lucario.

I'd argue that he's about on par with Victini and Lucario in terms of popularity, but of course there's no way to prove that. He's certainly a very popular choice for teams in-game, at least.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

Tyeforce said:
I'd argue that he's about on par with Victini and Lucario in terms of popularity, but of course there's no way to prove that. He's certainly a very popular choice for teams in-game, at least.

No way Zoroark is as popular as Lucario. Lucario has the whole benefit of being in Smash Bros., and at the time of Brawl's development, Lucario was the UNCONTESTED face of Generation 4. By comparison, most people don't like the idea of Zoroark being in alongside Mewtwo and Lucario, and many people debate whether 5th-generation even has a face.

I still think it would be for the best to wait for Black/White 2's release before making assessments on a Pokemon newcomer. I can confidently say though that both Lucario and Zoroark will not be playable in Smash 4 though.

Tyeforce · Apr 14, 2012

Snakey said:
No way Zoroark is as popular as Lucario. Lucario has the whole benefit of being in Smash Bros., and at the time of Brawl's development, Lucario was the UNCONTESTED face of Generation 4. By comparison, most people don't like the idea of Zoroark being in alongside Mewtwo and Lucario, and many people debate whether 5th-generation even has a face.

I still think it would be for the best to wait for Black/White 2's release before making assessments on a Pokemon newcomer. I can confidently say though that both Lucario and Zoroark will not be playable in Smash 4 though.

Okay, you do have a point, and I didn't even think about Lucario being in Brawl making him more popular, lol. Though I'd like to know how you're so sure that neither will be playable in Smash 4. Why would they remove Lucario? Just because he's "old news" and they want to replace him with someone new? If that was the case then they should remove Jigglypuff before they even think about removing Lucario. But really, we have no idea what the roster will be like when it comes to Pokémon, so I wouldn't be so sure about it if I were you.

Snakey · Apr 14, 2012

My prediction is not that BOTH Lucario and Zoroark won't be in Smash 4, but that its either going to be one or the other. This means that if Lucario is in, Zoroark will be out, and if Zoroark is in, Lucario will be out. I am very confident about this.

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