Phonomezer
Banned
I see, hence minis?
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Why is Sony getting so much more credit than MS for embracing the Indie scene?
- Thread starter LQX
- Start date
I see, hence minis?
So, put millions of dollars into marketing it to Americans, then decided 'good enough-profit center now'?
Actually, yeah, that sounds pretty much right.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
How can someone be passed when the game hasnt even started?
I feel like im the only one taking a wait and see approach before i announce anyone a winner.
They brought it out of the stone ages, put some clout behind it and helped shape it into industry force it is today.
I'll be sure to think of this the next time I fire up IQ.
No. Minis was a program for joint psp/ps3 dev, with even looser concept approval and business requirements. Self publishing of 'full' PSN games has been allowed for a while, but with a tighter process than minis allowed. The process is now being loosened on PSN in general, it seems.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Well there is a thread on the front page here detailing how the approval process for the PS3 was a bear and a couple indies avoided them because of that. Its being removed with the PS4.
Sony also kept their pricing in line with what was running on the MS system. How can MS get such grief for locked in pricing when you take a look at the pricing on the Sony system and its the same?
HadesGigas
Member
Then get cocky about it as others catch up/surpass.
But yeah, XBLA definitely helped make "indies" be a thing people actually noticed. Shame they seemingly aren't trying to keep up with Sony, Valve, or even Nintendo.
Yeah the x360 platform may not be ideal for indies anymore, but aren't both Nintendo and Sony allowing for self publishing now? I'm sure Microsoft will catch up and beyond with Durango, they're not idiots.
I think a lot of people are just freaking out because they haven't announced their console yet, so they compare Ps4 and WiiU with the 360, and of course it looks like an archaic structure.
Granted they could've kept the model on 360 up to date, but that doesn't mean they won't with next gen.
I think a lot of people are just freaking out because they haven't announced their console yet, so they compare Ps4 and WiiU with the 360, and of course it looks like an archaic structure.
Granted they could've kept the model on 360 up to date, but that doesn't mean they won't with next gen.
Metal Gear?!
Member
1) Still charges an exorbitant amount for every patch past the first
2) Still requires a publisher even to put your game on XBLA
3) Ghettoized XBLIG
4) Killed XNA
2) Still requires a publisher even to put your game on XBLA
3) Ghettoized XBLIG
4) Killed XNA
We've gotten dozens of leaks about Durango, some of them almost certainly on purpose, and not one word about self-publishing. You don't get credit if you don't do the work.
Sony has always been the golden child of the industry since they entered and that is just a fact so Sony news is hyped up very much by the enthusiast press.
In general Nintendo and Sony are just going down the logical path as far as being as indie friendly as they can. Microsoft will likely follow suit.
In general Nintendo and Sony are just going down the logical path as far as being as indie friendly as they can. Microsoft will likely follow suit.
pants
Member
If by Microsoft you mean steam, crowd funding and minecraft, sure.
I think Sony is definitely going to be able to level the playing field, but people expecting exclusive after exclusive to hit the service next generation are a tad bit misguided. Similar to retail, all three major console makers are going to have to rely on 1st and 2nd party developers to produce exclusive content for their platforms IMO. PSN, XBLA and Steam are simply too big at this point, and game development is far too expensive, for most indie developers to not try and maximize their profits by developing for multiple platforms. You're already seeing it today, and the phenomenon is definitely going to be exacerbated now that both the Playstation 4 and Durango are more PC like than ever before.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
How many leaks did we get about all these indie specific things with the PS4 before the reveal? None.
So why are people comparing a released console and one that is announced to one that hasnt had an official word spoken about it? Doesnt seem like a fair comparison to me.
No, I mean Microsoft and it's disingenuous to state otherwise. The 'scene' obviously existed prior to Microsoft, but it wasn't until XBLA relaunched on the 360 that these types of games truly hit the mainstream. Minecraft and crowd funding weren't even in existence when XBLA/PSN type games truly took off, and Steam as a relevant store window for these types of games is similarly recent.
HadesGigas
Member
The thing is XBLA as it currently is will probably not help in maximizing your profits.
Microsoft did nothing to change XBLA with the times, and being so tight lipped about the next Xbox is doing nothing to help the image of the successor to XBLA.
Logically they would renounce most of their current practices for next gen, but logically they would have already done that for Xbox 360 XBLA too.
I agree that MS hasn't played their Durango cards, so I agree we should wait and see what happens there.
But just to clarify, again, self publishing has been available on PSN for years. It's not new with ps4. What's new is a number of other policy changes - basically cutting down a lot on the concept approval phase, and getting rid of patch fees for indies etc.
Edit - think you edited or I misread your first line as being about self publishing specifically
Edmund McMillen tells you why:
http://youtu.be/KAgyKKzYpJM?t=31m25s
After reading this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...proval_makes_moves_to_get_indies_onto_PS4.php
It's clear that guys who love games have got into the right positions to make things happen and that's why they are getting credit.
http://youtu.be/KAgyKKzYpJM?t=31m25s
After reading this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...proval_makes_moves_to_get_indies_onto_PS4.php
It's clear that guys who love games have got into the right positions to make things happen and that's why they are getting credit.
NemesisPrime
Banned
Don't talk about things you have no clue about.
Shitloads of Indies on MS platforms TBH. Wp8, PC, W8 tablets and XBox. I see an incredible amount of development going on.
And yes XNA is dead.... because everybody is now using DX on all platforms, DX became XNA as a unified platform layer. Some of you people really should not join conversations like this. Start developing games and then talk.
pants
Member
It's disingenuous of you to state Microsoft are the ones that popularized indies when you have examples like this.
http://www.coldbeamgames.com/3/post/2012/11/november-26th-2012.html
These games make an assload more money on PC, Minecraft, Dayz, to a lesser degree Slender all these things start on PC and take off from there through word of mouth and indie friendly publications.
How do you attribute indies becoming mainstream to MS?
No, but there were some problems due to devs.
The first problem was a lot of devs had dreams about instant wealth and freedom and success and being able to sustain their own company. They saw the AppStore and thought it would be the same. What they failed to recognize is that anywhere in the media, be it games, movies, books or something else, 90 % of the content is a) created at a loss or b) barely makes it into the black. Only 10 % are actual financial successes. With everybody failing to know even the basic principles of economics they were all in for a bad surprise when their (pretty good) first batch of games didn't get anywhere close to the results they'd hoped for.
The second problem was that devs didn't realize they can't just make a game they love and sell it to millions. You have to create a game that your audience loves, even if you hate it. Of course the best case scenario is that you both love the game, because it shows in the amount of polish you put in. And it didn't help either that devs thought it would be a good idea to spam the market with hundreds of one or two stick shooters, a genre that was such a niche even on XBLA that it was no doubt selling even worse on XBLCG.
The third problem was a result of the first two. Devs started blaming Microsoft for the bad market (Microsofts original vision for XBLCG (Xbox Live Community Games, as it was called back then) was to have a public showcase for devs to find publishers and go to XBLA) and customers for the bad sales and decided to make cheap stuff instead. Not cheap as in 80 points games, cheap in "I spent four weeks on this, go have fun". The result was even worse. Now experimental games with gameplay worth ten minutes released on the marketplace. With trials being 20 minutes long it's no surprise stuff didn't sell.
Instead it was the rise of Massage Apps and other apps in general. Those were something new, something you couldn't buy on XBLA in a better version. Game devs were furious, they blocked their games from being visible on the marketplace and bashed Microsoft even more. The sad truth is: The good games always made it to the top. Like RC Copter, probably the first big success for XBLCG, staying at the top of the charts for months and months in a row.
The fourth problem was marketing. Devs don't know shit about connecting to your potential customers. The way they thought about it was "We are in the new arrivals for a couple of days and everybody sees us and buys us. Then we are in best selling and sell even more. BAM." I spent countless hours explaining how you have to advertise your games with blogs, Youtube, Twitter, interviews, ... but most of them didn't want to hear it. Spending even more money on the game? With no guarantee to get that money back? Thanks, but no thanks.
And then the market stayed in limbo for quite some time. It's only after the inclusion of Avatars into XNA that the Indie store became a success. And again, there was stuff that simply wasn't available on XBLA. But now it was gaming stuff. Then came Minecraft and now we have a bazillion clones of the indie store and they all sell surprisingly well and other games do well and it is finally a gaming marketplace thanks to the 1 dollar games.
We could've been there much earlier. The reason why XBLCG took so long to take off was that (like the original Microsoft vision) the posterchild games of the service were taken away to release on XBLA. Of course that makes sense for the dev involved but imagine if Dishwasher or Dust had been released first on the indie store like.
Microsoft took a lot of crap for its indie endeavours but truth is they never promised anything but the ability to create games and release them to other players. It wasn't meant to sustain a large group of indies, it was meant for people that create games as a hobby and want to make some money with it. As such the store always worked great. It's just that the disillusioned game devs that spent thousands on their game and didn't get it back were much more vocal than the rest. And that lead to the public misconception that XBLCG/XBI sucks.
I'm sure the discontinuation of XNA has nothing to do with MS walking away from indies, the implementation of Windows 8 in the next Xbox just makes it so much easier to develop for it that they don't need another framework just for indies. Everybody will use the same tools.
Mr.Wreckless
Banned
Cant wait until the reveal so this can all be settled.
maverick40
Junior Member
Where are you getting this from?
pants
Member
If we're only in console land, then I will concede.
EDIT: Your edit makes my post look silly.
This is a fascinating, excellent read, thanks.
not_so_special
Banned
are you serious? in the past 4 years the american gamin press was on the microsoft side with passion
Well we've all heard the horror stories of working with Microsoft as an indie developer and when Sony comes around and gives you a developer kit and asks you to make a game for them I'm sure that's appreciated.
Still, we have yet to see what Microsoft is up to but Sony is definitely in a good spot right now.
Still, we have yet to see what Microsoft is up to but Sony is definitely in a good spot right now.
All of the games you mentioned was released a long time after the first Summer of Arcade.
Mainstream coverage of games like Geometry Wars 2, Braid and Castle Crashers was a huge factor in getting people to open up their eyes for downloadable/indie games.
That being said, they're not the only ones responsible for popularizing indie games. They just played a major part.
Alx
Member
Interesting read indeed.
I didn't know much about indie games on XBLA until recently (never was interested in them), but when I read some of the criticism from the developers, I had that feeling that they had expectations that everything would be provided to them and that they were free to do what they wanted. But even for indies, business is business, so that means investing in promotions, meeting deadlines, targeting an audience... at least if you want to do some sales.
Is there any official or semi-official information about that ? It sounds logical that there will be some overlapping between the 720 and Win8, but are there hints to how far it will go ?
DiscoJer
Member
What worries me is that we are starting to see this with some Playstation Mobile games already. There's one guy that seemingly puts out a game every 2-4 weeks, usually half-baked. They aren't terrible, but they could have been really good if he spent time finishing and polishing them.
Only PS Mobile titles don't have demos...
LiquidSolid
Member
lol what? Have you been living under a rock for the last 10 or so years?
It's a pity this thread devolved so quickly into misinformed opinions being thrown around as if they were fact (PS3 is the same as 360, etc.), as there's a pretty good debate to be had about this subject.
From my perspective, both companies undoubtedly have some good people with an eye for talented devs and good games. Microsoft wouldn't have gotten games like Mark of the Ninja or Dust otherwise and the same thing goes with Sony and games like Unfinished Swan and Knytt Underground. But Microsoft are doing all that from within their current system, mostly because they've got the dominant market position in English speaking countries, so they don't seem to feel like they need to make any changes. To compete, Sony have been pushed into actively changing their policies and coming up with alternative ways to accommodate and attract developers. Right now, it seems like this work has finally paid off in terms of making Sony the more attractive option, whereas Microsoft have fallen behind and the amount of quality XBLA exclusives has dropped off.
Whether Microsoft will hit back and finally move their policies forward with their next system, I've no clue, but I have no faith in their current management actually doing so.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
Confirmed?
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Microsoft just doesn't seem to give a shit anymore.
This and horrendous support for indie developers may be the reasons.
Ask Edmund McMillen for details, I guess.
This and horrendous support for indie developers may be the reasons.
Ask Edmund McMillen for details, I guess.
Speaking as someone who has games on both XBLA and PSN...
Microsoft came out strong, made a lot of promises, started to deliver, then dialed up the restrictions while dialing down the returns to the point where indies can't reliably deliver and profit from their content on the platform.
Sony was from the outset had much better policy, had the pub fund, and allowed much more creativity and experimentation, but never got sales on the platform anywhere near where they needed to make a strong case for developing for PSN alone. Nothing they said in their PlayStation meeting was meaningfully different than what they already allow, but their tone was encouraging of an intent to further improve.
Both are miles behind where Android, iOS, Steam, etc already are today in terms of a developers ability to build, deliver, and monetize content in either ease of process or developer control.
Microsoft came out strong, made a lot of promises, started to deliver, then dialed up the restrictions while dialing down the returns to the point where indies can't reliably deliver and profit from their content on the platform.
Sony was from the outset had much better policy, had the pub fund, and allowed much more creativity and experimentation, but never got sales on the platform anywhere near where they needed to make a strong case for developing for PSN alone. Nothing they said in their PlayStation meeting was meaningfully different than what they already allow, but their tone was encouraging of an intent to further improve.
Both are miles behind where Android, iOS, Steam, etc already are today in terms of a developers ability to build, deliver, and monetize content in either ease of process or developer control.
Flatline
Banned
Very interesting video, thanks. Looks like Microsoft was nice until they succeeded and when they did they started treating them like shit.
Family Fry
Member
I want to just chip in and say if there is one thing MS should be praised for, at least with XBLA,
it's targeting a worldwide market. Whereas with SCEE, SCEA and SCEJ, it's just a bloody mess between them when it comes to some games and Indies.
I don't think we can realistically compare Sony's ps4 news to MS. Without knowing what MS are going to do with the new console it will all go round in circles.
Sony and even Nintendo have listened and changed details for new consoles, I would be more disappointed in MS if they couldn't do the same, especially since their support was larger earlier on.
it's targeting a worldwide market. Whereas with SCEE, SCEA and SCEJ, it's just a bloody mess between them when it comes to some games and Indies.
I don't think we can realistically compare Sony's ps4 news to MS. Without knowing what MS are going to do with the new console it will all go round in circles.
Sony and even Nintendo have listened and changed details for new consoles, I would be more disappointed in MS if they couldn't do the same, especially since their support was larger earlier on.
LQX
Member
Wow, thanks for this amazing reply.
Actually they also hate Sony.
Thank you for introducing some educated discussion into the thread. I'm surprised how quick people are to jump on MS, despite what they've done for indies this last generation. I'll go so far as to say the scene as it is would not exist if it weren't for the 360, XBLA, and the XNA initiative.
I really like what Sony is doing, and they are being aggressive with indies. But we don't know the whole picture, yet. Right now it's sounding a lot like XBIG to me, which is what happens with an uncurated community who can self publish (lots of subpar content, race to the bottom pricing, always online-requirement to offset lack of ratings).
I'm excited for the next generation, and all 3 console owners have peaked my interest as a developer. But the sentiment on these boards is getting a bit tiresome. I guess I've learned not to be excited by pre-launch promises.
So Dream.Build.Play never happened?
Seriously there are some foolish assumptions in this thread, but that's pretty common when people here talk about these companies.
Awesome post, thanks for taking the time to explain this.
Edit:
Yup, the love/hate that these people have for these companies is annoying.
Disgusting thing is, people here are quick to make baseless assumptions, but when people like you speak up, there's hardly any responses or acknowledgement that they were wrong to begin with.
I think it's down to perception. MS comes across as big business with very little regard for their partners or customers beyond how much money they can make off them. Sony on the other hand comes across as being good to devs and as a company that cares about their customers.
Because of this people will avoid praising MS and lay it on thick when it comes to Sony despite the fact that between XBLA and XBLIG MS has done a lot for indies as a platform holder.
Chû Totoro
Member
It's not that they get more credit, it's just that regarding the past it makes people speak a lot more about it.
It's actually a proof of your statement that MS was really way ahead regarding indies parnership.
It's actually a proof of your statement that MS was really way ahead regarding indies parnership.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Native C++ and DX are not easier than XNA development for Indies, Nor are SlimDX or SharpDX, the 'recommended' alternatives.
XNA lowered the barrier to entry level development, Native windows development raises that barrier, even under Windows 8.
It's really not hard to get in touch with Microsoft for XBLA publishing on Xbox, WP or W8.
All the info you need.
People needs to know that this is not true. Microsoft got superb programs for partners, programs like MSDN and BizSpark.
DX11. They are pushing C++ and DX now. Though I would think will be able to develop with C# again eventually since they have been rolling XNA features into DX.
Four_Chamber
Member
Keep preaching brother!
It's refreshing to hear the first-hand perspective of somebody who actually is, you know, developing games. I don't pretend to be a game developer nor do I pretend to know about the intricacies of consoles. GAF has really jumped on small things and made them seem far more important than they actually are. Noogy's post here really just brings a healthy dose of reality to this discussion. In particular, this refrain of "killing off XNA" is just one example of the hyperbole that is spreading like wildfire around console release time.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Microsoft has done a lot to help indie game development with the previous generation of games. However, now Sony & Nintendo are starting to make a big push to grab indie developers (and at least in Sony's case, it seems to be working) whereas Microsoft hasn't done much of late other than discontinue their easy-for-indies development tools.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I will admit up front that I don't know much about the behind the scenes happenings, but from an outside perspective it appears that Sony is more actively seeking indie developers and is going out of their way to cater to them. Going as far as loaning dev kits to them, when those developers don't even know what the Next Xbox will be. Also Sony has embraced the all walks of life attitude, believe they said early on this attitude originated from their music side execs helping to build the Playstation brand. There is no one else out there that is taking the chances on developers like Sony has. This approach I feel sends a message to many devs out there that feel their game may not be suitable to a big brand like Playstation is suitable to be on that platform, and they may even get help to be on that platform. That level of outreach and embrace is what I think is setting Sony apart from the rest right now.
Maybe some other devs could elaborate on that, but that is the way I see things happening currently.
Maybe some other devs could elaborate on that, but that is the way I see things happening currently.