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Why is Sony getting so much more credit than MS for embracing the Indie scene?
- Thread starter LQX
- Start date
It's up to MS not people if you ask me.
They could create a very loyal fanbase if they made some smart decisions and didn't prioritize money. Can't see it happening.
Beer Monkey
Member
Microsoft innovates, Sony copies and refines.
They are talking a hell of a long time with the cross voice chat thing, but given that they copied the 360's analog microphone port on the controller next gen that they are finally going to get that working.
The PS4 looks really badass and you can think Microsoft for that. MS has forced Sony into the 21st century.
They are talking a hell of a long time with the cross voice chat thing, but given that they copied the 360's analog microphone port on the controller next gen that they are finally going to get that working.
The PS4 looks really badass and you can think Microsoft for that. MS has forced Sony into the 21st century.
Warm Machine
Member
We are making money on XBLIG. More than anywhere else at the moment. Almost have had 100k people try our game.
outunderthestars
Banned
Look at all of the press Sony has generated this week regarding indies on PS3 and Vita.
"Rain – PS3
Divekick – PS3 and PS Vita
Spelunky – PS3 and PS Vita
Velocity Ultra – PS Vita
Limbo – PS Vita
Metrico – PS Vita
Sportsfriends (including Johann Sebastian Joust, BaraBariBall, Hokra and Super Pole Riders) – PS3
Ibb & Obb – PS3
Guacamelee! – PS3 and PS Vita
Hotline Miami – PS3 and PS Vita
Dragon Fantasy Book II – PS3 and PS Vita
Thomas Was Alone – PS3 and PS Vita
Luftrausers – PS3 and PS Vita
A Virus Named Tom – PlayStation Mobile
Beatdown in Treachery City – PlayStation Mobile
Crumble – PlayStation Mobile
Crystallon – PlayStation Mobile
Don’t Wake the Bear – PlayStation Mobile
Hermit Crab in Space! – PlayStation Mobile
Oh, Deer! – PlayStation Mobile
Rymndkapsel – PlayStation Mobile
Ten By Eight – PlayStation Mobile"
How many indie games has MS been promoting this month? Sony has also done alot with their indie pub fund to facilitate the development of indie games.
"Rain – PS3
Divekick – PS3 and PS Vita
Spelunky – PS3 and PS Vita
Velocity Ultra – PS Vita
Limbo – PS Vita
Metrico – PS Vita
Sportsfriends (including Johann Sebastian Joust, BaraBariBall, Hokra and Super Pole Riders) – PS3
Ibb & Obb – PS3
Guacamelee! – PS3 and PS Vita
Hotline Miami – PS3 and PS Vita
Dragon Fantasy Book II – PS3 and PS Vita
Thomas Was Alone – PS3 and PS Vita
Luftrausers – PS3 and PS Vita
A Virus Named Tom – PlayStation Mobile
Beatdown in Treachery City – PlayStation Mobile
Crumble – PlayStation Mobile
Crystallon – PlayStation Mobile
Don’t Wake the Bear – PlayStation Mobile
Hermit Crab in Space! – PlayStation Mobile
Oh, Deer! – PlayStation Mobile
Rymndkapsel – PlayStation Mobile
Ten By Eight – PlayStation Mobile"
How many indie games has MS been promoting this month? Sony has also done alot with their indie pub fund to facilitate the development of indie games.
Beer Monkey
Member
Let's not muddy up this thread with positive developer experiences on a Microsoft platform.
That's from this week. The Retro City guys have always said incredibly positive things- what are we missing here?
outunderthestars
Banned
There is no hive mind, you simply choose to see what you want. I get cranky about the constant "Vita is doomed" threads, but don't think the board collectively decided to hate the system. My eye simply catches more of those posts/threads because I enjoy the Vita so much.
We are a massive community of people with differing opinions. As such there simply cannot be a "hivemind"
I don't see how its up to Microsoft to advertise developer programs to the consumer market.
It's not, but if their efforts result in a marketplace & consumer base that seems to think they don't care or try as much...
Cornbread78
Member
That list right there just makes my VITA so happy... Sony is making the VITA a great place for Indie games and that makes ME very happy!
What about the months and months and months before this month that MS put in work with XBLA, XBLIG and XNA? Were you championing them then? I gonna guess that you weren't and if that is the case then it comes off as hypocritical.
That is what the OP is talking about. Take XBLIG for example (which Krilekk summed up pretty well in my limited experience), it seemed that whenever it was brought it up as a positive aspect of the 360 package then people would be all "massage apps!" and "needs achievements!" but now that Sony is making a push with indies they are piled high with praise.
Not saying they don't deserve it, not saying it isn't true, just seems to be a double standard.
Flying Toaster
Member
That is all well and good and I love the indie support that the Vita is getting. I just hope that it still gets decent non indie dev support as well.
There's a difference between publishing an indie game, like Sony has done with Journey, Flower, etc. and just allowing an indie game on your system.
I don't see how Sony has done better at promoting Journey than MS has promoted the slew of indie games they've published.
Also "corporate pride"? Really?
So you know there's no waiting on Sony's end as well? No certification, no fees, no waiting? We can all just throw our games and updates up, no problem?
Please...don't do this. It's a list from a playstation blog and really has no place to be here.
I agree that Sony is doing better with indie devs now, they have opened things up for them in wonderful ways. However when we don't even know what, if anything, MS has planned for indie devs, it's stupid to make any comparisons or present any lists. All we have to do on is what MS offers for indie devs right now with the 360, which they aren't going to change at the end of the system's life.
This thread is getting worse and worse with every post.
Why, because fewer and fewer agree with your sentiment?
Cornbread78
Member
Yes, there is a LARGE gap in AAA titles on the system at this time. There are a bunch on the way, but Sony is really late to the game with those...
Because that "indie list" from Sony is on track to becoming the next Killzone gif?
To be fair, I get the impression Team Meat are sooky babies in general.
Just_myles
Member
We'll see, there are so many venues for any kind of developer to get their product out. I'll be there either way.
It's less than 24 hours old and is concrete proof that the Vita has plenty of games coming out for it...
I'm not sure why that irks you so much, but in a thread that asks why people perceive Sony as pushing and investing in indie devs moreso than Microsoft, you should expect anecdotal posts & lists as evidence. Lighten up or just avoid the thread.
Because Sony seems going in a direction that will welcome indies with open arms. Right now, Nintendo seems to have the best welcome for indies corporate-wise (not getting into opportunity and investment here, just procedures).
Meanwhile Nintendo and Sony seem to be moving in a positive direction, Microsoft took the complete opposite route.
Of course, we probably should wait to hear what their plans are with the next Xbox to say they've fallen behind for sure.
Meanwhile Nintendo and Sony seem to be moving in a positive direction, Microsoft took the complete opposite route.
Of course, we probably should wait to hear what their plans are with the next Xbox to say they've fallen behind for sure.
Sony is proud to promote its indie partnerships and the indie community. We've heard almost nothing from Microsoft except for at their big events like e3, in essence, just to show off.
BattleMonkey
Member
It's like the console war has started up early again, yay!
Flying Toaster
Member
XNA no longer being used by MS is not the end of the world. Honestly they are going into one developement realm with all their products and since the inclusion of Windows 8 across the spectrum to all their devices. Perhaps it is better that XNA is no longer supported and a more singular dev enviroment is used.
There is practically nothing I cannot program for any Microsoft device using Visual Studio. Perhaps this is where the next wave of indie content is going to come from.
There is practically nothing I cannot program for any Microsoft device using Visual Studio. Perhaps this is where the next wave of indie content is going to come from.
Xbox Live Indie Games was a great idea, but it needed curation and promotion, and Microsoft provided neither.
Xbox Live Arcade is great at the surface, but based on reports...
-it treats the certification and patch process pretty much the same as it would for a full AAA game, which is onerous to indie developers.
-it gives a certain number of release "slots" to publishers, and reserves some themselves. There is no way to release a game without one of those slots, which means a developer HAS to work with a small number of publishers to be able to release their game on Live. Those publishers use it as an excuse to take an additional cut from the game's sales, even if their ONLY contribution to the project was allowing the use of their slot.
I really, really, REALLY hope the next-generation Xbox is better about working with indie developers. I think my console of choice next-gen is going to be whichever one allows you to use retail hardware as dev hardware first, just for the boost that'll give to the indie scene.
Xbox Live Arcade is great at the surface, but based on reports...
-it treats the certification and patch process pretty much the same as it would for a full AAA game, which is onerous to indie developers.
-it gives a certain number of release "slots" to publishers, and reserves some themselves. There is no way to release a game without one of those slots, which means a developer HAS to work with a small number of publishers to be able to release their game on Live. Those publishers use it as an excuse to take an additional cut from the game's sales, even if their ONLY contribution to the project was allowing the use of their slot.
I really, really, REALLY hope the next-generation Xbox is better about working with indie developers. I think my console of choice next-gen is going to be whichever one allows you to use retail hardware as dev hardware first, just for the boost that'll give to the indie scene.
Oppo
Member
It feels like XBL started the major trend of downloadable indie games on consoles with Geometry Wars; peaked somewhere around Braid, and has been sort of slowly coasting downhill ever since.
It just seems like they really weren't willing to provide good promotional space on their interface, and yes, I suspect the pressure from the other ads they wanted to serve had something to do with that. All that XNA stuff was basically sent to die.
It just seems like they really weren't willing to provide good promotional space on their interface, and yes, I suspect the pressure from the other ads they wanted to serve had something to do with that. All that XNA stuff was basically sent to die.
Dreamgazer
Member
Those sort of things don't really matter to the consumer though.
Even if all of the devs out there are princesses, the average consumer just want to see the games.
In that sense, people are just going by what info they have now, since Sony is the only one that's announcing anything.
Flying Toaster
Member
And if true that is unfortunate. I was a like a giddy little kid on Christmas day when I plugged in my Xbox 360 for the first time and was able to download Geometry Wars. The concept of games that could be made from indie devs, be certified and published and then be downloaded to the masses was such an amazing thing when it came out.
Lists should be expected, huh? I don't think so, I actually think that this type of thread is about the last place that lists should turn up (at least the type of lists that have turned up so far). Thank god for a couple of people (like Noogy) who actually know what they are talking about contributing their two cents.
Why would I need to lighten up? I've already praised Sony many times in this thread and only wish for spades to be called spades (which leaves a lot of room to praise Sony). They are doing a great job and if their keep on their current trajectory will probably kill with the PS4. Doesn't erase or lessen what MS have done up until now in regards to the topic at hand.
It might be a bad analogy but imagine soccer team A wins the championship every year for 5 or 6 years and then this year team B wins. You don't start calling team B the best team ever after winning one year.
Something I feel compelled to add. Short of GOTY talks or straight up "List your..." threads I think lists are the worst types of posts along with gifs and the like.
Boss Man
Member
I'll say that I don't think this difference of perception has to do with a hivemind or people liking Sony more. If there was some inherent bias or something among developers, then I'd question how it's possible for it to have shifted as it has during this generation.
As to why it happened, I think it probably comes down to a couple of things:
1) PlayStation (and video games in general) is a lot more important to Sony than it is to Microsoft. I assume PlayStation has a lot more power and freedom within Sony than Xbox does within Microsoft. This seems like it would be a very important thing when it comes to things like publishing, licensing, etc. Call it the Kaz effect.
2) Sony has been playing from behind all generation, so frankly they are trying harder. Not only would this make them more likely to want to do something like be progressive about indie development or assign someone like Cerny over the brand, but #1 allows them to actually do it. Call it the PS3 has no games effect.
Granted, these are assumptions so you're welcome to correct me on anything. All I know for sure is that Sony has seemed to be putting a lot more effort forth lately.
As to why it happened, I think it probably comes down to a couple of things:
1) PlayStation (and video games in general) is a lot more important to Sony than it is to Microsoft. I assume PlayStation has a lot more power and freedom within Sony than Xbox does within Microsoft. This seems like it would be a very important thing when it comes to things like publishing, licensing, etc. Call it the Kaz effect.
2) Sony has been playing from behind all generation, so frankly they are trying harder. Not only would this make them more likely to want to do something like be progressive about indie development or assign someone like Cerny over the brand, but #1 allows them to actually do it. Call it the PS3 has no games effect.
Granted, these are assumptions so you're welcome to correct me on anything. All I know for sure is that Sony has seemed to be putting a lot more effort forth lately.
that's great news, congrats.
I'm still amazed that an open publishing platform like XBLIG could exist on any major platform, let alone Xbox. There is some truly great stuff on there. Once again the PS fans on GAF put it in the list of "well that doesn't count".
I guess we are counting PS mobile titles though?
phosphor112
Banned
Andrij Pilkiw (programmer) from Spooky Squid Games (They Bleed Pixels) said this:
"They [MS] didn't just drop indie support, they threw it on the ground and stomped on it. They don't care anymore."
I spoke to more devs, but I don't want to repeat myself thread after thread. Go here to see the rest of my post.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51556986&postcount=128
these go hand in hand though. You cant ask for a curated platform and then throw out the quality control standards
gaming_noob
Member
Steve Balding is running MS to the ground.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Name those who said that? I count both and both are good initiatives.
No, because people are making assumptions when we only know part of the picture. Making any assumptions this early is silly to say the least.
On top of that, people are ignoring important factors that have already been pointed out in this thread.
But please go on and make excuses for ignorance...
SuperSonic1305
Member
Leave Microsoft alone
Flying Toaster
Member
He is doing that so that the Messiah Gates can come and liberate the sinking company and go to the promised land.
this was almost the first reply. would have been golden if it were.
Warm Machine
Member
Open markets self curate themselves if the community and leadership is in place. iOS GAF has recommended loads of top games to me as has Apple themselves.
XBLIG needed a couple people at MS sorting through, playing, and rotating tiles on the 360 dash. Same thing that Apple was doing.
The big diff between MS and Apple is that MS makes money from dash placement as ad space for whatever product and as far as I know, Apple does not.
XBLIG needed a couple people at MS sorting through, playing, and rotating tiles on the 360 dash. Same thing that Apple was doing.
The big diff between MS and Apple is that MS makes money from dash placement as ad space for whatever product and as far as I know, Apple does not.
MS' indie support is real and criticizable.
Sony's support is idealized. It's hard to be critical of something that doesn't exist. Sony's saying a lot of great things about smaller developers and smaller games, it will be great if they deliver, I don't expect the reality of indie gaming on the PS4 to be as good as the idealized vision of indie gaming on the PS4.
Sony's support is idealized. It's hard to be critical of something that doesn't exist. Sony's saying a lot of great things about smaller developers and smaller games, it will be great if they deliver, I don't expect the reality of indie gaming on the PS4 to be as good as the idealized vision of indie gaming on the PS4.
phosphor112
Banned
He really is. Talk to ANY indie dev at PAX and almost unanimously they'll say the same thing.
I can't express how much I dislike that man. I know other execs like Mattrick annoy me, but Ballmer just sounds like one of those shady CEO types.
George Claw M.D.
Member
I don't know
edit: Duh. Noogy is a developer. So maybe you were referring to him and Mario? Both speak from qualified positions.
QFT
Bal's deep for sure.