Dreamgazer
Member
Cause there's no indie games currently on the PS3 or Vita and no one has ever praised their support?
I'm on the wait and see camp, but you can't just brush off Sony's current gen supports either.
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Why is Sony getting so much more credit than MS for embracing the Indie scene?
- Thread starter LQX
- Start date
Cause there's no indie games currently on the PS3 or Vita and no one has ever praised their support?
I'm on the wait and see camp, but you can't just brush off Sony's current gen supports either.
Boss Man
Member
It's not a good post because it's not what he wants to hear, probably. It's unfortunate how promising discussions like this are usually started and ended by this sort of sentiment.
For instance, I'd like to talk about how successful or unsuccessful PSN indies have been in terms of sales. Especially in cases where the game is on both platforms and launched on both simultaneously. Do these numbers reflect installed base directly, or is the ratio lower/higher than what you'd expect and why? I'd also like to know more about the patching woes and what else might go into that from MS' side, and how it is or isn't different with others. I'd like to know more about MS' restrictiveness overall in cases where they are more difficult to work with than someone like Sony or Valve. I get the feeling that either of those subjects would rile people up though.
I think because Microsoft is now going in the opposite direction, whilst Sony going hard on a elements of the direction Microsoft itself initially pursued. By contrast, a lot of indie devs have spoken of the issues of XBLA now, and the lack of promotions or store presence. Sony instead seems to be opening things up for Indie devs going forward (ability to develop on PC's instead of PS4 dev kits, killing concept approval etc). Then you have PSN+ as well which is pushing a variety of content (that might otherwise never get much coverage or sales) to users via subscription services.
On the 360 front, the store has become less XBLA friendly, and now XNA is dead too. One side is looking bleaker whilst the other is looking far more optimistic.
On the 360 front, the store has become less XBLA friendly, and now XNA is dead too. One side is looking bleaker whilst the other is looking far more optimistic.
Dreamgazer
Member
Everything is moot because MS hasn't announced anything.
And even when they do, I'm sure some people (of either camp) wouldn't want any form of discussion until everything is "settled".
GAF speculates and make (stupid) guesses, it's just how it is.
Like most people I don't care about or own a Vita. The PS3 has a bunch of indie stuff, but more stuff than Xbox 360? Better stuff? I don't know, you tell me. It doesn't seem like there's an appreciable gap between the two, and that all of the recent indie talk has been about PS4, not PS3. Xbox has a boatload of shitty indie games for sale. I'm not sure if PS3 has an equivalent store front.
You should expect lists, especially ones from GDC, when the question is raised about why Sony has more apparent indie cred.
Volume of widely promoted games irrefutably helps, and it goes hand in hand with all the testimonies various devs have made in the past two years when comparing PSN to XBLA.
XNA's death and XBLA's lack of focus on indie games in the past few years all contribute to the perception too. It also doesn't help that GDC and the PS4 unveiling seemed to make Sony's agenda very indie focused, or at least healthier than ever for easy development and cert.
Why are people bullet pointing them killing XNA like it doesn't likely have to them transitioning to next gen?
Anyways, Microsoft did a lot more and did it first and that's why they get and deserve the credit. This much is clear and in stone with XNA, various labs, competitions for publishing, creating a dedicated indie marketplace on their console, etc. Why is that stuff suddenly forgotten about now that PS4 information is in the air? they're infrastructure was there and working. But as the gen went on, MS' ludicrous restrictions became more and more apparent, and Sony just offered a cheaper solution. And by then Sony had caught up in many respects and offered programs and sales that catered to indie games specifically. Combine this with multiple gaffes on Microsoft's part and details of difficulty finally leaking out and you have an explanation for the illusion of Sony somehow spearheading support for the indie scene.
Anyways, Microsoft did a lot more and did it first and that's why they get and deserve the credit. This much is clear and in stone with XNA, various labs, competitions for publishing, creating a dedicated indie marketplace on their console, etc. Why is that stuff suddenly forgotten about now that PS4 information is in the air? they're infrastructure was there and working. But as the gen went on, MS' ludicrous restrictions became more and more apparent, and Sony just offered a cheaper solution. And by then Sony had caught up in many respects and offered programs and sales that catered to indie games specifically. Combine this with multiple gaffes on Microsoft's part and details of difficulty finally leaking out and you have an explanation for the illusion of Sony somehow spearheading support for the indie scene.
So then what are you trying to say? That you don't care or know about the games in general? That's pretty ignorant unless I'm interpreting your post wrong.
Add to OP.
Because they killed it without publicly announcing a successor, and the private audiences that are being briefed on next-gen aren't the ones who relied on XNA in the first place?
What I know is that today it seems like MS and Sony have about equal support from small devs, with MS maybe having an advantage due to the Indie channel on XBL. Sony has all of this indie support that's coming with the PS4 and supposedly to the Vita, but it doesn't exist yet.
Dreamgazer
Member
Whether or not you own a VITA, which platform has more indie games (xbox) or who has better stuff (opinion) is entirely unrelated to your previous post or the discussion at hand.
The topic is "Why is Sony getting so much more credit than MS for embracing the Indie scene?" not "PS3/360: who got more indie games?"
I simply pointed out that you can't just brush off Sony's current gen support and say it is "idealized" or doesn't exist. Threads regarding the VITA indie games or how Sony's indie support has been improving have been around way before the recent PS4-indie hype. It isn't a case where everyone are just going crazy simply because Sony said "we got these for the PS4!"
It's not unrelated. You are certainly no authority on the relatedness of the post.
Most of the praise that Sony gets for indie support is based on promises and future releases. Most of the criticism MS receives is based on software available on the 360 right now.
Reality is easier to criticize than promises.
Flying Toaster
Member
I think MS has been pretty clear on the direction they want developers to go as far as dev enviroments go.
They killed XNA fast but they would not have unless there were plans to incorporate something else in it's place. It is all speculation on what is going to happen until the next console is actually released.
And you expect them to announce the next XNA before the console is announced?
What do people want from XNA right now? Do they want MS to pour more and more support into XNA than what is established and available right now? They didn't take away the tools from indie developers like people are making it sound, they're just not iterating on them further. Why should they when they're moving to the next generation and indie devs should probably be looking towards next gen right now anyways instead of trying to make a buck at the end of the gen with the infrastructure that is currently there. It's really not a big deal, at all. We even had indie devs comment and say it's probably for the better so MS can rid themselves of what XBLIG has become and replace it with a new platform like what Sony is doing with the PS4 with less of the strings attached.
And I'm not sure what private audiences being debriefed on next gen has to do with it. Some established names are getting early access to the console, the same way as it is for the PS4. John and Jane Doe will get the tools later, should they exist; same with the PS4 when they choose to make those tools available.
Because in retrospect, many developers are seeing a trend when it comes to Microsoft when introducing and phasing out new technologies:
http://ventspace.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/directxxna-phase-out-continues/
outunderthestars
Banned
Did Microsoft ever actively promote titles in the XBLIG section? Sony has, and continues to actively promote the Playstation Mobile games on their blog, website, and through PS+.
And yes, I have championed the XBLIG scene, especially the laser wars titles of multiplayer FPS. Sadly the software tools indie devs were given were not properly supported by MS leading to constant player disconnects and loss of player data from XBLIG multiplayer titles.
Again, Sony actively promotes PSM titles, MS does not promote XBLIG titles.
Also, the fact that the list comes from a PS blog is exactly my point. Where is the MS press coverage of their XBLIG titles coming out later this year? Surely you have to see the humor in you saying that you don't see how Sony has done a better job of promoting indie games, then, in the same post, chastising me for providing you with concrete proof of Sony doing a better job of doing so. These are games coming to the PS3/Vita, not the PS4. Microsoft could promote their indie games, if they wanted to. My point is that you claims things "aren't going to change" on current platforms, but Sony's presence at GDC/PAX has shown that things are changing for indies on current platforms: Sony is paying more attention to them, and promoting them while MS has paid less attention to XBLA, and continues to almost totally ignore XBLIG.
Again, the list I posted are all PS3/Vita games that Sony is actively promoting right now. They are already delivering games for platforms that are already available.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Because there is no "transition to next gen" for most of the XNA community.
Most of them have been left with no path forward, the 3rd party replacement C# / DX wrappers like SharpDX are incomplete, largely undocumented and the last time I looked development on them had slowed down to a crawl.
The path that was suggested by Microsoft for XNA devs was effectively "go back to what devs did before XNA", which meant the loss of managed coding and frameworks that made 3D and game development easier.
The XNA community was left mostly high and dry, have mostly moved on to MonoGame (cross-platform), Unity (cross-platform) and only a very very small amount have moved on to C# / SharpDX based development, a smaller amount have moved to native development.
The loss of XNA is a big deal for some, and the developer community that was built around it are having to move to other platforms, that means iOS, Android and PC.
There is no "XNA for next gen" and all talk from Microsoft has been that there won't be one either.
There is no XNA for next gen, this comes from Microsoft itself, they are not being quiet on it, they are not hiding it for a later reveal, it doesn't exist, it's not in development and the teams that were responsible for it have been moved to other, unrelated projects.
XNA isn't just dormant, or waiting for the future, XNA is dead, period.
Link of them saying their next generation console won't have XNA or an XNA equivalent?
Team moving on to doing other stuff/restructuring doesn't immediately mean there's no other tools in the works either.
Sony has been VERY good on the PR front, when it comes to indies. The few people I've talked to there have been awesome and genuine, and I'm really hoping to see them turn things around for the PS4.
That said, I love the guys at Microsoft, who are equally passionate people. The impetus is now on them, whenever they announce the next console, to make it equally attractive to indies.
Right now the spotlight is on Sony (they DID just announce a new console), and they're doing a great job. This next generation is going to be very interesting, for gamers and devs. Honestly, this competition for the indie space is only good news for everyone.
That said, I love the guys at Microsoft, who are equally passionate people. The impetus is now on them, whenever they announce the next console, to make it equally attractive to indies.
Right now the spotlight is on Sony (they DID just announce a new console), and they're doing a great job. This next generation is going to be very interesting, for gamers and devs. Honestly, this competition for the indie space is only good news for everyone.
I've never understood it either. Double-standards I guess. MS created development tools for indie developers to use, gave them a means to sell their games, added an indie games section to both the console store front and on Xbox.com and there are currently 2,873 games on the service.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
You would need to have followed Shawn Hargreaves blog over the last 2 years or so for the full picture.
He was warning people, from Microsofts perspective, that this was the case for a long long time, he was pushing people away from XNA each and every time he was asked about future XNA development.
If you had any involvement in XNA, you'd be aware of his heavy involvement in XNA, he was one of the guys behind XNA and Microsofts main voice on XNA as its community manager.
They also directly stated this to Polygon, earlier this year:
This was known by most XNA devs last year, even the larger, successful ones were told specifically that the path forward for them was Native C++ / DirectX development, and that no future version of XNA was coming.
For sure "Double-standards". MS never got the praise it deserve . I recommend you should make a thread about it and clear it all out.
The "indie games" you see on the PS3 are from basically already established developers with a marketable product. While their efforts there are certainly commendable, anything other than a replacement or respectable counter to MS's XNA platform and the XBLIG store is basically just lip service to indie games. Independent developers don't need subsidized development so much (though it's certainly welcome), they need low barriers to access development tools and low barriers to publishing on the platform.
Why not? Announcing a new set of free, game-specific tools that work across Windows RT, Windows 8, Windows Phone, Xbox 360 and "future devices" wouldn't be a bad move. Of course, that's not to say that it's a move Microsoft thinks is worth their time and effort, or that it would be trivial to execute...
This.
95% of indie games I played are just not for me. They are either too shallow or have some incredibly amateurish graphic/sound/etc.
I don't really care which system gets the most indie support. Bring constant stream of quality games is all that matters.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
So you want an equal-opportunities rule then?
No praise must be made for Sony unless accompanied by fair representation for Microsoft, and recognition of their endeavors.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound?
You know that that was only true for a few weeks, yeah? MS originally changed the layout of the dash and created a section called "Speciality Shops" where they placed indie games, but due to negative feedback from devs, they moved indie games back to the same section where XBLA games and what have you are.
Likewise on Xbox.com, indie games have their own category alongside Games on Demand and XBLA games: -
lol, sure they are!Raven77 said:
DragonSworne
Banned
Actually it's not unprecdented. Nintendo has already done those things before Sony.
I think the biggest thing we can take away is Sony fans like to trumpet these decisions as some unbelievable act when in fact Nintendo has already done these things and MS will most likely follow suit.
Dreamgazer
Member
The only issue I have with Draft's post is that he is making a claim that Sony's current indie support is "idealistic", non-existent, vita doesn't matter and some people are just hyping future releases. Which is not true at all based on all of the past vita indie threads and numerous other dev related topics prior to the recent GDC PS4-indie hype. It's like Vita owners don't count just because they're not part of the next-gen/console war debate.
In addition, while I'm sure someone is - I'm not muddling myself in the discussion as to who has the better current gen indie market or dev tools. The obvious answer is MS XBLIG and there is no question to that. Again, that doesn't invalidate any of the other points people have bought up as to why they feel more excited about one over the other.
As I've said earlier, it's like we're expected to not discuss anything till everyone has their final reveal.
Raven77
Member
Do some research and read some news:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/11/microsoft-xbox-360-premium-content-plans-entertainment/
I don't just make this stuff up...from MS's own mouth "Its an entertainment console, not a gaming console".
Warm Machine
Member
I think what you are asking for already exists in Visual Studio C++ C# and Unity/Unreal/and other platform flexible middleware
You don't compare Journey and Flower to XBLIG games, you compare them to Fez, Mark of the Ninja, etc. which MS has promoted.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand here and because you don't understand this, your following paragraph has little relevance.
Square Triangle
Member
MS approves of garbage, try to count how many zombie and Minecraft clones there are.
Dreamgazer
Member
gaming is part of entertainment.
uncledonnie
Banned
Great to hear this type of insight. I think it's nuts to think that Microsoft won't try to expand their ecosystem with the nextbox, and supporting indie games is obviously a huge part of that. We'll have to wait and see what they do.
FairXchange
Member
Because it sounds like Sony's policies are becoming worlds better than what is currently the standard with MS' treatment of indies.
SneakyStephan
Banned
10.000 dollar patches on xbox
Excellent , especially the last sentence.
No shit. It's kind of dumb to advertise the fact that your gaming console is in fact a platform you play video games on. It's sort of inherently assumed that a gaming console plays video games. It makes sense to advertise the potentially lesser known, and yet highly intriguing features with the intention of expanding your console's appeal to a much broader base.
Gaming is part of entertainment. Calling it a "gaming console" implies that that's all it does. Calling it an "entertainment console" does not mean that MS are "moving away from all facets of gaming". That's absolute nonsense and you know it.
Exactly. PSN has nothing that rivals the indie games service on the 360 though.KageMaru said:
OP, it's obvious. It's because MS is bad, and Sony is good.
That's the gaf answer.
In reality MS did try with Indies. They did a number of initiatives, XNA, Indie, they put on contests, coding groups. They assisted with publishing and some XNA stuff graduated to XBLA. Dust: An Elysian Tail being one of them. The dev said that without Microsoft's help, he wouldn't have made it that far. Indie games on Xbox were 95+% garbage. But there were lots of gems.
But that doesn't matter, because the few vocal devs who had trouble with Microsoft, equals "Microsoft is bad for indies". I'm not saying they didn't have issues, but they did much more than Sony ever did. And Microsoft winding down programs and slowing down current gen development of things seem to me to the vast majority of people here that MS is practically giving up on gaming. Not that they would keep things quiet as they ramped up for next gen or anything...
Sony is getting lots of credit and love now because of the policies they're setting for PS4. Microsoft has said nothing about the next gen Xbox. So you can see where the love is going, as of now.
TLDR. Microsoft Bad, Sony Good. (Fingers in ears. LALALALA)
That's the gaf answer.
In reality MS did try with Indies. They did a number of initiatives, XNA, Indie, they put on contests, coding groups. They assisted with publishing and some XNA stuff graduated to XBLA. Dust: An Elysian Tail being one of them. The dev said that without Microsoft's help, he wouldn't have made it that far. Indie games on Xbox were 95+% garbage. But there were lots of gems.
But that doesn't matter, because the few vocal devs who had trouble with Microsoft, equals "Microsoft is bad for indies". I'm not saying they didn't have issues, but they did much more than Sony ever did. And Microsoft winding down programs and slowing down current gen development of things seem to me to the vast majority of people here that MS is practically giving up on gaming. Not that they would keep things quiet as they ramped up for next gen or anything...
Sony is getting lots of credit and love now because of the policies they're setting for PS4. Microsoft has said nothing about the next gen Xbox. So you can see where the love is going, as of now.
TLDR. Microsoft Bad, Sony Good. (Fingers in ears. LALALALA)
There is no approval from MS for XBLIG, it's all managed by the community IIRC.
Again another spot on example of how people make assumptions and post whatever they want.
Spot on again. MS allows devs to release what they like on there (pretty much), yet that openness is now somehow a bad thing too, lol. There's some spinmasters on here that can turn anything MS do into a negative, lol.
Warm Machine
Member
First off, that is a ridiculous over simplification of the XBLIG marketplace. You are mostly projecting a learned bias into the vast library of games available. Also, MS doesn't approve any of those games, they just offer digital space and a storefront to sell on to.
It is the developers the peer review the and make them available for sale providing the games don't crash or contain restricted content. If you want to see what MS "approves" of watch what they promote on the dash.
When it comes to the games that sell on XBLIG, they sell because there is demand from customers. Take Shark Attack Deathmatch for example. People want to swim with killer sharks. Or Avatar Laser Wars 2. People want to play an FPS with their avatars. Some of the audiences just wants a cheap laugh, some of the audience wants a game they can't otherwise find elsewhere. The Minecraft clones became popular because Minecraft wasn't available.
Those games have seen a dozen updates since release and are not distinctly different from Minecraft in their own way and also in some cases ahead of Minecraft, especially considering they are $1-$3.
The Slenderman "clone" White Noise Online is selling gangbusters on XBLIG right now. People want these games.
The strangest thing about NeoGAF as a community when it comes to XBLIG and indie games in general is that it isn't at all representative of the larger market. Some games have well over a million downloads or sales and there isn't even mention of it on the forums here.