-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Official LAIR thread
- Thread starter Captain N
- Start date
The more I play it, the more I get used to the controls and the more it feels "adequate."
But the game design is just so freaky. I can get the motion controls to work for me well enough now though. The bridge mission is pretty fun.
The game's biggest problem is by far the camera.
But the game design is just so freaky. I can get the motion controls to work for me well enough now though. The bridge mission is pretty fun.
The game's biggest problem is by far the camera.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
You need to be very quick and efficient in that mission.Wollan said:
Destroy outpost in front of you first, then destroy second outpost further in front, higher up. Only then defend those elephants from enemy dragon, then destroy third (smaller) outpost, and immediately fly right to destroy I think two more outposts.
Like many other bad design decisions in the game, it's sometimes not obvious that you've completely destroyed all cannons on the outposts, you think you have, and fly on for the next target, but your ships keep being destroyed. Make sure to hear the voice saying something like "This outpost won't be a problem anymore" before you move onto the next target
This game has many things, but crappy textures? Maybe ugly, but there's like 1% of the whole game that had less than really high-res textures when shown upclose, like some of those elephant models.Shinraven said:
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
That, compounded with Kaching's comment that name "Lair" doesn't even make sense for this game, reminds me of long ago when this game was first announced.Y2Kev said:
Someone was speculating how awesome it would be if you were this old dragon that had fallen from grace, and has only his lair left, with just a bit of loot, so your goal would be to fly from one village to another, steal from people, and conquer, only to see your lair slowly filling up with gold, decorations, and servant maidens given to you by scared villagers. You could plan the course of action from your lair, assign ground troops from villagers loyal to you to conquer surrounding territories. Every once in a while you'd get to a really tough defended village that at the end would have a "boss" in term of another dragon or creature that would be trained by those villagers to defend them. Harder bosses could be helped by a village wizard, to give them some supernatural abilities and whatnot. Eventually you'd get to fight against some evil king in his evil dark castle, and his minions and dragons, for a complete domination over the land.
Of course, after that speculation was made, everyone agreed that it sounds too good and makes too much sense, so of course end product won't be anything like that - and sure enough, it wasn't.
Shame, because such close-to-heart design, that wouldn't rely on flying over some ridiculously huge territories, but more on hubs (villages) connected with canyons and whatnot, would let them put some real hand crafted detail and much more memorable locations and set pieces, and all that on a probably smaller budget at that, for the game would be much more straightforward to make. Not to mention it would let them glorify the dragons as creatures you only fight every once in a while, in some really tough battles, and don't just shoot down from the sky dime a dozen.
So much wasted potential... Lair is like a game designed by a bunch or programmers with no imagination.
Marconelly said:
Thanks for the tip ! Did they have the same audio cue for the manta escorting + giant serpent level ? I played with the volume turned down, and left over dragons were feasting on my mantas behind my back. I managed to clear the level but was wandering why F5 never put in any visual/audio cue to tell me it's safe to move on to other areas now.
They have a lot of imagination in the technology area, just not enough (time ?) for the game design.
The game is ok for me, but I agree that it has so much more potential. It is time for F5 to run a reality TV show (Who wants to be a game designer ?)
Marconelly said:
Factor 5 is from the demo scene back in the Amiga days and whatever, and they've never made a good, original game. People remember F5 for porting Turrican. They are programmers, and not even the kind of programmers that know what interest the common person. Any regular person is going to see LAIR and say, "Wow, that looks literally like shit." LOD errors and tessellation like that goes a long way towards hurting the overall impact. Programmers, though, are probably flipping their lids. Just the sheer amount of detail they packed into the environments, the resolution, and the general fluidity they managed at said framerate probably impresses the types of programmers at F5. Everyone else has to be thinking, "Why are the cuts so jerky?" or "Why does the game transition from scene to scene just with a random lock up?" or "WHY IS THERE SO MUCH SHIT GOING ON AT ONE TIME."
I'm surprised at how Rogue Squadron it is. There's definitely an enjoyable core here, it's just surrounded by a ton of confusing and obscuring garbage.
i'm almost sure that factor 5 actually made the turrican games -- at least the ones on genny and snes. which were pretty awesome, even with their icky euro color palettes. i hope they do a 2.5d turricanesque action game for psn. they're just...not good at these flight games, though perhaps the star wars license and nintendo exclusivity covered this up in the past
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Are they really? What demo group were they involved with? Even if they are, that's not automatic detriment - quite the opposite IMO (makers of SSD:HD and RSC1 & 2 for example, are ex-demosceners)Y2Kev said:
Lair's engine shines in some situations, like that snowy prison level or the Maelstrom level, or the 2nd half of the last level (sunset). If their designers could play more to those strengths, we'd have a lot less ugly muddy brown in the game.
Y2Kev said:
It's like I've always said, the game disorients you too much by cutting away from the action or focusing on some random objects. I *hate,* for instance, when you kill a rhino, that you're still holding onto the face/mask/whatever it was wearing, so you have to fling it and the camera follows it off into some netherspace. The controls no doubt have a few issues, but I don't think many people would feel as badly about them as they do if the disorientation didn't make it feel twice as bad.
Who let the searchlight mission go to press?
It plays okay...I did a fairly good job of avoiding the searchlights. BUT....wtf at the utter confusion/mess when you are spotted and when you are ripping off the generator? When you get seen, it's just sheer brightness on the screen. And, when you are on the generator, the explosions bring the framerate into single digits.
W.T.F.
It's just so rough.
...but i'm enjoying the game. Primarily due to the score, which, I will repeat again, is AMAZING. One of a kind score.
It plays okay...I did a fairly good job of avoiding the searchlights. BUT....wtf at the utter confusion/mess when you are spotted and when you are ripping off the generator? When you get seen, it's just sheer brightness on the screen. And, when you are on the generator, the explosions bring the framerate into single digits.
W.T.F.
It's just so rough.
...but i'm enjoying the game. Primarily due to the score, which, I will repeat again, is AMAZING. One of a kind score.
Thunderbear
Mawio Gawaxy iz da Wheeson hee pways games
Y2Kev said:
Searchlights are really easy to avoid
if you take out the cables (look more like chains, but they are power cables)
The level that's bugging me now is finding water for your dragon.
It says to follow the vegetation and I do but can't find the damn water
Best moment in the game so far for me was the coral snake. Loved the scale of that battle.
semiconscious
Member
Marconelly said:
great post, & perfect closing comment. lair isn't a bad game - but it is a mediocre one...
Marconelly said:
Light Circle, according to MobyGames. Apparantly, they changed their name to avoid associations with their not-so-legal past.
http://www.mobygames.com/company/factor-5-llc
Also, according to MobyGames, they created Turrican. This seem to be backed up by the info on the Factor 5 web site:
http://careers.factor5.com/layout1.asp?Page_id=6869&published=1
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Oooh, I know Light Circle. They were a game cracking group, not exactly demoscene type of activityBrakara said:
*edit* I guess they also made a few simpler demos now that I've looked into it.
Finally had the chance to try this today...
I suppose expecting the worst has its benefits as I found the controls to not only be easy to use, I actually thought they were fun.
Anyone who can't do the 180 is an idiot. OK, perhaps not, but seriously, it's dead simple. You simply pull your arms up...and wait a second. I have a feeling most people were simply throwing the controller upwards and then immediately back down. If you simply pull up on the reigns and wait until you begin the 180, you will ALWAYS hit it. I did not miss a single 180 with this method. Dashing is even easier as you just kinda push the controller down at an angle.
When it comes to actually piloting the dragon, I also don't understand the problem. The dragon moves very smoothly through the air and the brakes not only allow for sharper turns if you wish, you can even stop in mid-air and point yourself in any direction. There is plenty of speed control. I'm completely shocked that anyone really had such a tough time with it.
Lining up targets is also easier than everyone suggested. The white "pre-target" determines which enemy you'll end up selecting and it appears simply by pointing yourself at something. If I'm flying towards something, I just wait until I'm pointing at the correct target (in white) and then go for it with R1. Cake.
I've played the bridge level with all of the combat, and really, it wasn't difficult provided you pay attention to the mission objectives.
Honestly, I do not understand how anyone who has played a Rogue Squadron game could find this difficult or confusing. It's flawed in all of the same ways as RS. Obviously, this means the game needed some work, but that doesn't make it a bad game either.
I suppose expecting the worst has its benefits as I found the controls to not only be easy to use, I actually thought they were fun.
Anyone who can't do the 180 is an idiot.
OK, perhaps not, but seriously, it's dead simple. You simply pull your arms up...and wait a second. I have a feeling most people were simply throwing the controller upwards and then immediately back down. If you simply pull up on the reigns and wait until you begin the 180, you will ALWAYS hit it. I did not miss a single 180 with this method. Dashing is even easier as you just kinda push the controller down at an angle.When it comes to actually piloting the dragon, I also don't understand the problem. The dragon moves very smoothly through the air and the brakes not only allow for sharper turns if you wish, you can even stop in mid-air and point yourself in any direction. There is plenty of speed control. I'm completely shocked that anyone really had such a tough time with it.
Lining up targets is also easier than everyone suggested. The white "pre-target" determines which enemy you'll end up selecting and it appears simply by pointing yourself at something. If I'm flying towards something, I just wait until I'm pointing at the correct target (in white) and then go for it with R1. Cake.
I've played the bridge level with all of the combat, and really, it wasn't difficult provided you pay attention to the mission objectives.
Honestly, I do not understand how anyone who has played a Rogue Squadron game could find this difficult or confusing. It's flawed in all of the same ways as RS. Obviously, this means the game needed some work, but that doesn't make it a bad game either.
The music that plays during the searchlight mission is some of the most beautiful stuff in gaming. It's so dynamic that it really just proves that this kind of thing can work in games...and it's of the utmost quality.
Absolutely phenomenal audiovisual treat level 5 is. God, you WANT to like this game so much and then it just pisses on your face.
Absolutely phenomenal audiovisual treat level 5 is. God, you WANT to like this game so much and then it just pisses on your face.
I'm sorry for those who are supporting this game. I was originally going to buy since I had high hopes for this game. In the end, I decided to rent it to see if the reviewers were right. Sad to say they were almost right. I wouldn't rate it a 4.5, for me I would give it a 6. The gameplay is just too simple and there is no satisfaction in it. I mean when you kill other dragons, you don't even realize you did till you see the points. No blood, no death screams. I mean when I bite into a soldier, I need to see blood all over the place and him scream. I know that sounds sadistic but it makes it seems like you are actually accomplishing something. I also so wanted to roam around on my own and enjoy the graphics, however it seemed all the missions I played so far had sort of a time limit. Like if I didn't kill those soldier before they got to the Guardians, or before the giant snake ate all the Mantas. I was too understand you were able to fly on your own and do whatever you want. Oh well, I'm returning it tomorrow, could not even finish half the game. Oh yeah, next game please give us an option to skip those terrible cutscenes!!!
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
Shinraven said:
There's no escaping this one.
Belfast said:
Is there any point to that at all? For that matter, is there any point to the fact you hold on to the rhino's head until you elect to drop it? Like, can you hit something with it or anything?
I really don't want to think that entire weird camera sequence and the fact you have to actively drop the head is all for nothing.
Crayon Shinchan
Aquafina Fanboy
Marconelly said:
... oh god... the potential that could've been.
Lair makes me hate it for that reason. Everyone can see it as this big fat diamond in the rough.
But the cutter polisher has taken it and somehow managed to put a huge massive crack in it in the process of cutting and polishing.
Dante said::lol Wait till you get to deadmans basin, or whatever it's called with the Dam. I haven't thrown my controller in years, but this level......Oh man...I had to put the game away for awhile
My Sixaxis was chucked at least twice during that level.
Having just beaten the game about an hour ago, I'm supremely conflicted. On the one hand, the game has fantastic audio and visuals, but the controls and gameplay range from so-so to horrendous. I think the major problem is that F5 made some bad design choices. First off, some of the missions you have to be very, very quick about things, but because the Sixaxis isn't terribly precise, you're going to be over-shooting targets and dashing forward when you want to do a 180. I figure they wanted to make some of the missions a bit stiffer in terms of difficulty just because there isn't a whole lot to the game (Gotta add a couple of hours to the gameplay clock!) but it really turns me off. Especially when some of the objectives aren't completely clear.
Take, for instance, the Deadman's Basin level. You have all these different objectives, and while the one objective that will end the level is right there for you to do, you're being told by other characters that the army is being overrun, or civilians are being killed, etc. It took me two or three times just to figure out you had to take out the entirely dam before you could continue. Maybe I'm just slow, but I think that presents a problem with the game not making it's objectives clear.
But honestly, I had a good time with the game when it's all said and done. For a rental, it is what it is. Glad I gave it a shot, even if it wanted me to choke a puppy at times.
sleeping_dragon
Banned
i love the poetry in this thread.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I rented it, and I liked it. This is my first game with motion controls, so I guess this explains why I am a little bit impressed.
Bearillusion
Banned
Speevy said:
Doesn't mean the game is the cause.
It is pretty amazing, really. I'm not a huge motion control fan, but between a few recent Wii games (especially Prime 3 where even its gestures are actually fun) and now this, I'm starting to see the appeal.spwolf said:
I believe people are having a disconnect with Lair simply because it asks so much of the player at any single moment. First of all, the controls ARE rather layered. I really had no trouble jumping between the different systems, but I can see how someone might. When you mix this with the generally chaotic gameplay, it may seem impossible to play.
I also blame the little icons they use to represent required motions. The animation gives the impression that you are supposed to keep moving the controller in order to accomplish a goal, but this is not the case. That whole 180 thing really makes me laugh as I just can't believe none of these reviewers could figure it out. Hell, the fact that Julian can't pull it off 100% of the time is nearly as bad. The game is looking for an upward motion. That's it. If you pull up and pause for a second, the 180 comes out 100% of the time. I literally did not miss a single 180 after discovering this. A friend of mine was with me while I was playing and was aware of this issue. We were both laughing at how easily the 180 and dash come out if you perform them properly. They really should have taken the Nintendo approach in the tutorial and showed obvious motions with arms and everything rather than small moving icons.
From what I have played, I really do believe the game is better than any of the Rogue Squadron games. It clearly uses the same model, but there are enough additions to make it feel somewhat deeper (which could be tripping people up). Also, something about the visuals really makes it feel as if you are flying high above the ground. Rogue Squadron games never really did a good job with the sense of scale, if you ask me, as something always felt off. Also, the space battles in RS2 used terrestrial physics, which kind of ruined them.
The game also feels more polished than expected. The menus are great, the transitions aren't anywhere near as poor as people were suggesting, and the visuals have impressed the hell out of me. The level of detail is incredible and the animation (overall) actually IS pretty darn smooth. The framerate is really the only disappointing bit as it never really feels stable. Not unplayable (thanks to motion blur), but still lower than it should be. It's even more disappointing when you consider that RS2 and 3 were 60 fps (mostly). Though the original Rogue Squadron on N64 had a much MUCH lower framerate than Lair (what did you expect?).
Seems like a decent game to me, though, and I'd like to spend more time with it sometime in the future. Perhaps I just have a soft spot for flawed gems? It's not a great game, but what I played left me wanting more...not less. If you can handle everything the game throws at you, this is Rogue Squadron 4.
No no no. You will not if you do it properly. For the 180, pull the controller upwards and wait until the animation is just about to trigger before bring it back down. Think of pulling on the reins when you do this. If done properly, you'll do a 180 100% of the time. I pulled it off every single time with this method. Same for the dash (push the controller somewhat forward and down). The dash motion can be quick to return (unlike the 180).
Bearillusion
Banned
I really hope Sony put up and demo and soon. Maybe take that opportunity to explain the controls a little bit better for the 180.
Dark10x after reading your comments and then the review from Gamespy it's like I'm reading about two totally different games. With regards to motion control that is.
Dark10x after reading your comments and then the review from Gamespy it's like I'm reading about two totally different games. With regards to motion control that is.