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Official LAIR thread
- Thread starter Captain N
- Start date
nice impressionsdark10x said:Finally had the chance to try this today...
I suppose expecting the worst has its benefits as I found the controls to not only be easy to use, I actually thought they were fun.
Anyone who can't do the 180 is an idiot.OK, perhaps not, but seriously, it's dead simple. You simply pull your arms up...and wait a second. I have a feeling most people were simply throwing the controller upwards and then immediately back down. If you simply pull up on the reigns and wait until you begin the 180, you will ALWAYS hit it. I did not miss a single 180 with this method. Dashing is even easier as you just kinda push the controller down at an angle.
When it comes to actually piloting the dragon, I also don't understand the problem. The dragon moves very smoothly through the air and the brakes not only allow for sharper turns if you wish, you can even stop in mid-air and point yourself in any direction. There is plenty of speed control. I'm completely shocked that anyone really had such a tough time with it.
Lining up targets is also easier than everyone suggested. The white "pre-target" determines which enemy you'll end up selecting and it appears simply by pointing yourself at something. If I'm flying towards something, I just wait until I'm pointing at the correct target (in white) and then go for it with R1. Cake.
I've played the bridge level with all of the combat, and really, it wasn't difficult provided you pay attention to the mission objectives.
Honestly, I do not understand how anyone who has played a Rogue Squadron game could find this difficult or confusing. It's flawed in all of the same ways as RS. Obviously, this means the game needed some work, but that doesn't make it a bad game either.
I know, it's really strange. It really is extremely easy to pull off. I'm positive that it is the pause that does the trick. If you just bring it up and slam it back down, you might dash. If you pull it up, wait, and then put it back down, it will always do a 180.Bearillusion said:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
dark10x said:
Ok, explain how the producer of the game only got it right 8 times out of 10
.
Udde
Member
Thank you dark10x. I know we have similar gaming tastes, and Im keeping my faith in this game after your thoughts. I think in F5 they must be somewhat angry with the "qualified" press, and with themselves; It looks the main problem with lair could very well be that its not a game for casual gamers with casual type controls. I agree with you, they should have included better descriptive icons to show how the dragon must be controlled.
Metalmurphy
Member
Here's something that backs dark10x up.
http://dory.mncast.com/mncHMovie.swf?movieID=10040093120070909130826&skinNum=2
22 180 turns in a row with no problems what so ever.
http://dory.mncast.com/mncHMovie.swf?movieID=10040093120070909130826&skinNum=2
22 180 turns in a row with no problems what so ever.
I already noted how sad that is (though, let's be honest, producers are very often very poor players at their own games).Panajev2001a said:Ok, explain how the producer of the game only got it right 8 times out of 10
The game is designed to look for a specific type of input...and it's easy to register if you do it right. It becomes second nature rapidly. In all honesty, I really enjoyed the controls and the feeling of flight. It was good fun.
It needed better icons AND a more involved tutorial. I mean, it seemed kinda neat, but it really leaves it up to you. When you start a game, it seems to only cover the most basic tutorial and requires you to go back manually to check out the other (more important) ones. This is a flaw as it throws you into the game with little idea how to play. I spent some time messing around in the tutorial area and had the controls down solid before actually trying a real mission. Getting a feel for how everything should work makes a big difference and prevents it from feeling chaotic as you actually end up having a grasp on how to handle everything.
That's exactly what I was doing.
I tend to bring my hands back down to a level position in time with the swooping animation. It feels pretty good when you do that and means that you'll never miss a 180.
Metalmurphy
Member
dark10x said:
The problem is you're supposed to control the dragon like you were holding/pulling the reigns (i think that's how its called), and most people think/try to control it by "tilting the dragon". That's not how it works.
Can somebody explain to me how the hell
in level 3 or 4? I spent forever flying back and forth to no avail--I really wanted to like this game but a lot of these annoyances are making me feel otherwise---I'm back to Warhawk for now.
I'm supposed to grab onto those counterweights inside the mouths of the mountain with the spotlight eyes
Wow, dark, your method of the 180 has worked 100% of the time for me. I used to lift it while pitching it towards me and I could get it to work maybe 20% of the time. Since just jerking it up quickly, it's worked 100% of the time.
More shitty tutorials.
you need to lock on with l1 and press square
More shitty tutorials.
numble said:
you need to lock on with l1 and press square
I don't think it matters too much, really. Just pull it upwards quickly and hold it before bringing it back down to normal position. Pausing for a second is the key as bringing the controller back down too quickly is what causes a dash to come out. Some people were performing the action so quickly that the 180 was cancelled in favor of a dash.gogogow said:
You don't need to make a huge motion, either. For the dash, you literally just flick it down-forward just a tad and it should work everytime.
ah, i see, thx.dark10x said:
So dark10x, what score would you give Lair right now? Even though you haven't finished it I presume, let's say a score up to the level you are playing.
Are the 4's justified? By reading your impressions from the last page, it should be higher than a 4. You acknowledge the issues, but they are not as bad as the reviewers make it out to be, right?
I really want to try Lair out, I think it's kinda unjustified that everyone is laughing and hating on F5/Lair.
I can see that they've tried really hard, but the end result is a heavily flawed game.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Dark, I used to think the same thing you are thinking now - I could pull off the 180 every single time I tried.
But I'll be damned if there aren't some missions where it's simply harder to pull off - I remember clearly "Dead Man's Basin" was such mission (or whatever is the name of that one where you have to break the dam). I don't know if it has something to do if the dragon is moving slowly and facing the wall, but in many situations like that (moving slow + facing wall) it wouldn't do 180 when I tried to pull it off. I would have much preferred if they mapped 180 to moving both analog sticks down at the same time. That kind of action would still preserve the feeling of player controlling the reigns, but it would be fail-proof to pull off.
But I'll be damned if there aren't some missions where it's simply harder to pull off - I remember clearly "Dead Man's Basin" was such mission (or whatever is the name of that one where you have to break the dam). I don't know if it has something to do if the dragon is moving slowly and facing the wall, but in many situations like that (moving slow + facing wall) it wouldn't do 180 when I tried to pull it off. I would have much preferred if they mapped 180 to moving both analog sticks down at the same time. That kind of action would still preserve the feeling of player controlling the reigns, but it would be fail-proof to pull off.
Hmm. It's like, whenever I think I like it, it does something stupid. I just beat the prison mission in that giant ice fortress, and I had fun doing it, but only because I like flyinz and dragonz. The freaking game didn't make clear what the ballistas looked like, and even if it did, it's freaking impossible to see them from that high. You really need a 100" screen at 2160p or whatever.
Well, I haven't had the chance to play as much as some, so it's tough to say. From what I've played, it seems like a 7-7.5 experience to me. There are some highly appealing aspects to the game, but also a number of flaws. I like it more than the Rogue Squadron games, though.gogogow said:
Nick Laslett
Member
delete
I would give it a 5 or a 6, I'm around 2/3 of the game I think.
There are some moments of brilliance, with the great sound and some truly big battles with lots of enemies. But sometimes it's just dumb and stupid. You don't know where your targets are, the controls work against you and there's only chaos.
So it's a really, really mixed experience. It does so many things wrong that you can't enjoy the good things for long. But giving it a 4 would be too low.
There are some moments of brilliance, with the great sound and some truly big battles with lots of enemies. But sometimes it's just dumb and stupid. You don't know where your targets are, the controls work against you and there's only chaos.
So it's a really, really mixed experience. It does so many things wrong that you can't enjoy the good things for long. But giving it a 4 would be too low.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Hey Mesijs, check your PM.
Bill Rizer
Member
Is this for real (from Gamespy): "the motion-sensing controls of Lair are incapable of registering tilt on more than one axis. That means that whenever you want to turn, you can forget about ascending or descending" ???
Byakuya769
Member
Panajev2001a said:Ok, explain how the producer of the game only got it right 8 times out of 10
Hmm, wonder if the producer of Tekken can get an electric wind godfist or even regular wind godfist every time they try....
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Byakuya769 said:
I do not know the ins and outs of Tekken, but I hope for the sake of your argument that those moves you listed are basic moves meant to be simple and executed often during the game even in intense moments in which you have a lot of objectives you have to concentrate on concurrently.
Edit: looking it up on Google it seems to be a VF style frame synchronized combo (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2124192)... so, I think you are missing the point dark10x and I were discussing.
I am of the opinion that pushing technology almost for technology's sake with a thought about complete, polished, and easy to pick up and with a well thought out learning curve to master was partially responsible for some of the problems people are attributing to this game: PSP remote play (not even advertised made it into Gold master and retail version: why did they even spent man hours on it ?), SIXAXIS motion based controls only (as Marconelli put it, maybe there were other ways to implement the 180 degrees turn) while you should always have the humbleness not to assume players have no choice but to master the game and enjoy it (they have the choice not to buy your game after they try it though
), native 1080p, etc...Even what Dark10x said about the motion to do the 180 degrees turn, it seems to me to be pretty unforgiving in the timing, from its description, without a good tutorial that makes you understand well how to master that move: it is not an impossible thing to try, I will certainly approach LAIR more carefully now and I will follow dark10x's advice which will mean less frustration for me (at least as far as that specific maneuver is concerned), but the player is left to a mechanism of trial and error to figure it all out. I do not think that frustrating your consumers is a good habit, if you can avoid it.
I am grateful that they pioneered the way on many things PS3 wise and I think that the core engine behind LAIR is going to be considered a great asset if F5 will be using it again for another game on PS3 or if some of its technology will be making its way back into SCE WWS's studios (which it probably will).
I think it was a great experience for the artists, animators, modelers, etc... (the "content" people) who worked on this project: think what you want about the end result but at worst (I have not played the game yet so I will not judge the final game) it must have been a valuable research experience for all of those involved.
It was also a good experience management wise I think: attempting something as bold as what F5 wanted to present to the public must have meant a LOT of manpower had to be coordinated and have great tools available.
That's a game I definitely want to see a postmortem of (Gamasutra start to work on it
).Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Byakuya769 said:
Oh and just one more thing...
I think that PD's Yamahuchi would probably whoop quite a lot of asses over here at GT: HD or GT: 5 Prologue using the D-Pad + X and O buttons while we would be using the analog sticks and the triggers or the buttons or even a wheel
. Yes, he is probably almost too hardcore .DAMN DAMN DAMN!!! F*cking irritating mission.
It's bridge of the Ancients, on of the last ones. I have to escort ships and Manta's. The controls DO suck now. I hav to get all those defense posts. Any hints on how to attack them best etc? Until now I didn't have so much problems with the difficulty, but this irritates the hell out of me.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Get close enough to the outpost, don't hold R1, but you will get a sort of auto semi-lock on to one of the cannons as long as you're aiming approximately at it, so just shoot the hell out of it, then tilt controller a bit until you get the same kind of semi-lock on another cannon. Shoot, until you see a small smoke pouring from it and your hits start bouncing off of it (Jesus, Factor 5... they really should have made it more obvious when the cannon is destroyed) rinse, repeat. Don't move to the next outpost until you hear something like "This outpost won't be a problem anymore".
You can use R1 as well, but still just stand in place and tilt controller a bit to avoid getting hit. Don't fly around the cannon with R1-lock, as soon as it's destroyed, the camera will swing around like crazy unless you're looking straight into outpost, and you will lose time re-orienting (and you don't have time for that in that mission), so using R1 to lock is pretty much useless there.
As I said above, that mission is dumb. Well, most are kinda dumb.
You can use R1 as well, but still just stand in place and tilt controller a bit to avoid getting hit. Don't fly around the cannon with R1-lock, as soon as it's destroyed, the camera will swing around like crazy unless you're looking straight into outpost, and you will lose time re-orienting (and you don't have time for that in that mission), so using R1 to lock is pretty much useless there.
As I said above, that mission is dumb. Well, most are kinda dumb.
Byakuya769
Member
Panajev2001a said:I do not know the ins and outs of Tekken, but I hope for the sake of your argument that those moves you listed are basic moves meant to be simple and executed often during the game even in intense moments in which you have a lot of objectives you have to concentrate on concurrently.
Edit: looking it up on Google it seems to be a VF style frame synchronized combo (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2124192)... so, I think you are missing the point dark10x and I were discussing.
I am of the opinion that pushing technology almost for technology's sake with a thought about complete, polished, and easy to pick up and with a well thought out learning curve to master was partially responsible for some of the problems people are attributing to this game: PSP remote play (not even advertised made it into Gold master and retail version: why did they even spent man hours on it ?), SIXAXIS motion based controls only (as Marconelli put it, maybe there were other ways to implement the 180 degrees turn) while you should always have the humbleness not to assume players have no choice but to master the game and enjoy it (they have the choice not to buy your game after they try it though
Even what Dark10x said about the motion to do the 180 degrees turn, it seems to me to be pretty unforgiving in the timing, from its description, without a good tutorial that makes you understand well how to master that move: it is not an impossible thing to try, I will certainly approach LAIR more carefully now and I will follow dark10x's advice which will mean less frustration for me (at least as far as that specific maneuver is concerned), but the player is left to a mechanism of trial and error to figure it all out. I do not think that frustrating your consumers is a good habit, if you can avoid it.
I am grateful that they pioneered the way on many things PS3 wise and I think that the core engine behind LAIR is going to be considered a great asset if F5 will be using it again for another game on PS3 or if some of its technology will be making its way back into SCE WWS's studios (which it probably will).
I think it was a great experience for the artists, animators, modelers, etc... (the "content" people) who worked on this project: think what you want about the end result but at worst (I have not played the game yet so I will not judge the final game) it must have been a valuable research experience for all of those involved.
It was also a good experience management wise I think: attempting something as bold as what F5 wanted to present to the public must have meant a LOT of manpower had to be coordinated and have great tools available.
That's a game I definitely want to see a postmortem of (Gamasutra start to work on it
Wind godfist is absolutely basic, electric isn't as much.. but basic for me and basic for you are two different things. As is something being easy for one producer and hard for another are completely different as well. You all are assuming that Eggbert is even any good at his own game, also I would argue that the 180 turn isn't as essential as a lot of you are making it out to be... if for some reason you can't pull it off just do a quick turn with the brakes and you'll turn around almost just as fast. Regardless, making a 180 degree turn has not hampered me in accomplishing any objectives... so I don't know where you're getting that from.
DemonSwordsman
Banned
antiloop said:
i havent played lair yet. but warhawk tilt controls work great.
I'm going to have to pop it in today and see (the "you can either go up/down or left/right, but not both at the same time" thing). What I can say for sure is when you're locked on something and circling it, you can't increase or decrease your altitude - or at least I couldn't get it to work.
Also: does anyone else have a problem of - when locked on to a ground target with R1 - yor dragon dashing and swooping at it rather than simply locking? It seemed for a few enemies in the game I had to let the autoaim take care of certain ground targets because locking would trigger that weird swoop attack that left the target behind me.
Also: does anyone else have a problem of - when locked on to a ground target with R1 - yor dragon dashing and swooping at it rather than simply locking? It seemed for a few enemies in the game I had to let the autoaim take care of certain ground targets because locking would trigger that weird swoop attack that left the target behind me.
That is one of the games biggest problems. They do a piss poor job of instructing the player and the end result can be quite a mess. The game never directly informs you how the 180 is to be performed. It's incredibly reliable if you do it properly, but the game suggests a different motion thanks to its animated icons. I know they wanted to keep things like that to a minimum, but the result is nearly game breaking for some. I've played a few more missions and have yet to struggle with any of the controls and have had no issues understanding the missions.
I briefly tried the game on a smaller TV just for kicks (20" SDTV) and was pretty shocked at how much more difficult it is to play. Even with dragon vision, the smaller ground targets become difficult to pick out. You really need to find a good viewing distance for the size of your TV. If you are sitting 8ft away from a 32" LCD, for instance, I'd imagine you'll struggle to properly see anything.
It is a mask for loading. If you watch the HDD indicator light during this sequence you'll notice that it is flashing constantly.Belfast said:
Yeah, it's clear that reviewers haven't given the controls a fair shake. The game deserves points taken off for failing to properly instruct the player, but it shouldn't be slammed THAT hard.
I'm surprised that Julian keeps suggesting that casual players would better understand this game. I don't agree at all. You need a hardcore player who is able to adapt to new systems easily. The only motion controls that have EVER given me problems were pointer based games on the Wii (which was a problem with my setup and I've since solved it).
After Prime 3 and Lair, I almost want to give SSX Blur a real shot.
dark10x said:
Not defending anything about Lair but I would like to disagree partially on that point. New gameplay ideas and such, I think hardcore players could easily adapt to. Motion controls though, I think, are a completely different situation where I think casual players would adapt more easily because they don't have a pre-concieved notion of what controls are supposed to be.