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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"

F

fatgamecat

Member
I'm pretty sure both consoles have enough memory width for their needs to avoid bottlenecks. There's no point to having a huge memory width above what the system requires, right?

The only issue is X1's DDR3+ESRAM is more complicated and difficult to program for. So I'd still chalk it up to a PS4 advantage.
 
R

robertsan21

Member
Its going to be fun to see people eat so much crow when these things finally launches and there is a difference in performance that you can clearly see.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
AgentP said:
That's because you are cherry picking info that confirms your bias. Just because MS "Measured" 200GB/s in one game does not imply it is averaging 200GB/s or that figure holds up for more than a few operations or in more than one engine
Click to expand...

Do we even know if they measured the 200GB/s in a game?
 
M

Manmademan

Member
tournanext said:
I'm pretty sure both consoles have enough memory width for their needs to avoid bottlenecks. There's no point to having a huge memory width above what the system requires, right?

The only issue is X1's DDR3+ESRAM is more complicated and difficult to program for. So I'd still chalk it up to a PS4 advantage.
Click to expand...

not exactly. the DDR3 in the Xbox is generally too slow to be useful for graphical tasks. (63 GB/s?) It needs that ESRAM.

The problem is that with only 32 megs of comparatively high bandwith ESRAM, devs are going to have to be constantly swapping things in and out of it to match what a decent PC or the PS4 can do. As the generation goes on it's going to become a problem, and I'm not sure how you could consider that anything but a bottleneck.
 
B

Bossofman

Neo Member
vcc said:
for the casual audience it would be the same idea as horse power in cars or resolution on DSLR's. It influences their buying decisions even if they don't understand what it means. all they care about is X > Y and if the price is close they buy X. If X is also a $100 cheaper then it becomes a very easy sell.

Nuanced details like the utility of the kinect or the relative quality of the XBL network is harder to convey and market.
Click to expand...

I disagree with Kinect, if they get Kinect Demo stations out at places like Best Buy and have a game that makes it shine, that will sell people on it like nothing else.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Bossofman said:
I disagree with Kinect, if they get Kinect Demo stations out at places like Best Buy and have a game that makes it shine, that will sell people on it like nothing else.
Click to expand...

If Kinect was new and fresh to the public, maybe.

Kinect is a known quantity though. there are already 24 million of them in US homes, the majority of which are collecting dust or being used for little more than dance games.

MS needs to convince people that Kinect 2 is somehow revolutionary and TOTALLY different than the Kinect they already have and didn't get much use out of. So far they don't have any games that come close to making this argument.
 
S

Skeff

Member
Bossofman said:
I disagree with Kinect, if they get Kinect Demo stations out at places like Best Buy and have a game that makes it shine, that will sell people on it like nothing else.
Click to expand...

two things:

Firstly, the first kinect game is kinect sports rivals which I believe is slated for march?
Secondly, Kinect isn't going to work very well in Best Buy with people walking around constantly, especially considering that it takes a few minutes to calibrate kinect sports rivals for each player, that's too long for a demo station in best buy. If they show anything that ins't XB1 exclusive like the dancing games, people will be thinking "but I already have kinect" ad possibly those dancing games.

I agree they need to get kinect out there somehow, but they have no viable products for kinect at the moent and it's very similar to kinect 1 for the casuals to notice.
 
B

Bossofman

Neo Member
Manmademan said:
If Kinect was new and fresh to the public, maybe.

Kinect is a known quantity though. there are already 24 million of them in US homes, the majority of which are collecting dust or being used for little more than dance games.

MS needs to convince people that Kinect 2 is somehow revolutionary and TOTALLY different than the Kinect they already have and didn't get much use out of. So far they don't have any games that come close to making this argument.
Click to expand...

I don't know the performance of the new device compared to version 1, obviously they will need to find something...wait for it, wait for it...that KINECTS with the unwashed masses.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Bossofman said:
I don't know the performance of the new device compared to version 1, obviously they will need to find something...wait for it, wait for it...that KINECTS with the unwashed masses.
Click to expand...

2423095-boo_this_man.gif
 
T

Tsundere

Banned
Bossofman said:
I disagree with Kinect, if they get Kinect Demo stations out at places like Best Buy and have a game that makes it shine, that will sell people on it like nothing else.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this train of thought completely, the masses will see Kinect 2 much as they saw Kinect 1, they won't care for the upgraded hardware for it, the experiences will be 99.9% the same as the technology at its core, will offer the same type of experiences as its predecessor, but with more... "fidelity". They will see Xbox 360 that has more of those experiences available, at half the price, and would rather get that.

Much like the WiiU is to the Wii to the "casual gamer", the Kinect2 wil be like the Kinect1.
 
NoMoreTrolls

NoMoreTrolls

Banned
OldSchoolNerd said:
You cant blame MS for doing it though can you? Those guys have spent years designing and building something they are proud of and probably a bit too deeply attatched to, then the internet says its crap...when they know it isn't. They want to get their side of the story out. Which is fair enough I think.

To my mind it can be used to challenge the notion that the ps4 is going to be all over the x1 ... something I am trying to do here! For my sins....

But anyway all this has brought on quite a considerable thirst and I'm off for a few pints of Guiness. Laters.
Click to expand...

pouring-out-liquor.gif


Couldn't find one pouring out Guinness. Sorry.
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
vcc said:
for the casual audience it would be the same idea as horse power in cars or resolution on DSLR's. It influences their buying decisions even if they don't understand what it means. all they care about is X > Y and if the price is close they buy X. If X is also a $100 cheaper then it becomes a very easy sell.

Nuanced details like the utility of the kinect or the relative quality of the XBL network is harder to convey and market.
Click to expand...

well stated
 
J

Jack_AG

Banned
robertsan21 said:
Its going to be fun to see people eat so much crow when these things finally launches and there is a difference in performance that you can clearly see.
Click to expand...
Who needs launch? We are already seeing differences - especially since a large majority of PS4 titles run 1080p native. Something must be pushing those extra pixels and it isn't pixie dust, unicorns or special sauce - its actual hardware. People choosing to remain ignorant to real-world examples and 3rd party devs speaking out and instead cling to theoretical impossible numbers will never eat crow.
 
B

Bossofman

Neo Member
Tsundere said:
I disagree with this train of thought completely, the masses will see Kinect 2 much as they saw Kinect 1, they won't care for the upgraded hardware for it, the experiences will be 99.9% the same as the technology at its core, will offer the same type of experiences as its predecessor, but with more... "fidelity". They will see Xbox 360 that has more of those experiences available, at half the price, and would rather get that.

Much like the WiiU is to the Wii to the "casual gamer", the Kinect2 wil be like the Kinect1.
Click to expand...

The WiiU is not an improvement on 'motion gaming' at ALL over it's predecessor, actually I think that's a huge problem with the WiiU, if they made a WiiU with massively improved Motion Controls and HD version of Wii Sports and put it side by side with that low res Wii Sports, people would go Wow!, What a difference.
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Grimløck;84023573 said:
They don't die, they multiply. Whenever one gets bished, another steps up to take the mantle, desperately trying to dance the same tired dance.
Click to expand...
Kill one, two more take its place.
 
D

DrM

Redmond's Baby
Manmademan said:
a count for just this thread would be interesting. The body count has got to be legendary by now.
Click to expand...

So much banned shills that Ice T and Body Count are discussing to revoke their infamous song for this occasion. It would be dedicated to Bish and called 'Shill killer'
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Bossofman said:
The WiiU is not an improvement on 'motion gaming' at ALL over it's predecessor, actually I think that's a huge problem with the WiiU, if they made a WiiU with massively improved Motion Controls and HD version of Wii Sports and put it side by side with that low res Wii Sports, people would go Wow!, What a difference.
Click to expand...

Nintendo already made Wii motion plus. no one cared.

Sony made the Move. Packaged it with sports champions. No one cared.

The market for incremental improvements to motion control gimmicks is astronomically small. Once the casual market has "been there, done that" and moved on there's no real luring them back.

How well do you think Rockband 4 or Guitar hero 7 would sell, using a real guitar?
 
T

Tsundere

Banned
Bossofman said:
The WiiU is not an improvement on 'motion gaming' at ALL over it's predecessor, actually I think that's a huge problem with the WiiU, if they made a WiiU with massively improved Motion Controls and HD version of Wii Sports and put it side by side with that low res Wii Sports, people would go Wow!, What a difference.
Click to expand...

Kinect 2's hardware advantage over its predecessor won't change the fact that you'll essentially have to still get up, wave your arms, etc. to play Kinect-only games. Maybe its voice recognition library is more enhanced, maybe it does interpret a few other metrics (estimating heart rate, muscle balance, etc.), but those don't change the core gameplay, same as for the WiiU.
 
B

Bossofman

Neo Member
Manmademan said:
Nintendo already made Wii motion plus. no one cared.

Sony made the Move. Packaged it with sports champions. No one cared.

The market for incremental improvements to motion control gimmicks is astronomically small. Once the casual market has "been there, done that" and moved on there's no real luring them back.

How well do you think Rockband 4 or Guitar hero 7 would sell, using a real guitar?
Click to expand...

I am surprised there isn't more 'American Idol' type games, that analyze your singing and berate you Simon Cowell style, do you think games like Rock Band are dead permanently?
 
S

Skeff

Member
Bossofman said:
I am surprised there isn't more 'American Idol' type games, that analyze your singing and berate you Simon Cowell style, do you think games like Rock Band are dead permanently?
Click to expand...

That's a billion dollar idea, quick remove it from your post and sell it to a games company, I can imagine it now:

"Player 1, That was shit, you sounded like a cat scratching it's claws on a chalkboard whilst being strangled, you fail"
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
vcc said:
According to the DF article the ESRAM is restricted to reading or writing on each bus at a time and it means 102GB is it's peak transfer rate. According to the DF article by using instruction tetris which lets them do some extra writes or reads while certain other instructions happen they can achieve more than that. They did 133GB while doing alpha transparency blending, a operation that generally inflates bandwidth numbers. Then someone took an absurd step and projected out this very limited trick into the general case and assuming they could do this every 8/9 clock ticks to get 198GB/s.

This was before the upclock so 109GB is after the up clock and 198GB became 208GB. But the last number is very very funny math. MS has been repeating that funny math. It's the equivalent to claiming a stock Chrysler Caravan can do 0-60 in 2.46 seconds because they dropped one from a crane and clocked it. It has almost no bearing to it's real world performance.
Click to expand...

:)
 
F

Finalizer

Member
I'm especially amused that folks keep targeting this thread, given how much discussion there's been of it essentially being a honey trap at this point, what with there being little in the way of technical news since that recent DF article got torn apart. It's like they don't even try to get a clue of the situation, just dive in, and surprise, the move backfires spectacularly.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
vcc said:
for the casual audience it would be the same idea as horse power in cars or resolution on DSLR's. It influences their buying decisions even if they don't understand what it means. all they care about is X > Y and if the price is close they buy X. If X is also a $100 cheaper then it becomes a very easy sell.

Nuanced details like the utility of the kinect or the relative quality of the XBL network is harder to convey and market.
Click to expand...

I agree. A perception is formed among the masses. People start saying "Xbox one is underpowered" without even having a clue as to why or how. Since E3 MS has been doing all it can to shape a narrative that is completely out of their hands at this point. It's a complete PR nightmare.
 
Q

quetz67

Banned
Perkel said:
Killer Instinct - 720p
Ryse - 900p
Battlefied 3 - 720p
Forza 5 -1080p/60

Killzone SF - 1080p60inmulti
Driveclub - 1080p targeting60
Second Son - 1080p
Knack - 1080p
Deep Down - 1080p(???)targeting 60fps.
Click to expand...

Must be about the most biased way possible to make such a list. Just the ??? and the "targeting" hamper the perfection a little, I would just leave such unimportant details out.
 
E

EmptySpace

Banned
Sword Of Doom said:
I agree. A perception is formed among the masses. People start saying "Xbox one is underpowered" without even having a clue as to why or how. Since E3 MS has been doing all it can to shape a narrative that is completely out of their hands at this point. It's a complete PR nightmare.
Click to expand...

pr can only do so much. people are always blaming pr when the business-side decisions and technical-side decisions are the basis of pr. pr's only job is to sell the product, they never decided on xbone being underpowered, being more expensive, and having forced kinect.

in fact, it's harder for pr to sell a product that has that vision from the get-go. it was not pr who decided on the no-used games or always-online.
 
B_Boss

B_Boss

Member
stryke said:
To explain it in a noob way in which I understand it, while X1's GPU can access both eSRAM and DDR3 pools simultaneously (and effectively achieving the sum of both bandwidths), much of that high bandwidth capacity is restricted to just 32MB. This can complicate things for the developer in deciding what can go in it and must prioritise bandwidth sensitive tasks to the eSRAM. It's disingenuous to compare it to PS4's RAM setup, since you have all 8GB ( - whatever the reserve is for OS and whatnot) accessible at a high bandwidth.

Regarding CPU and bandwidth, apparently they're the same but it's slightly different with the PS4 (something to do with onion or garlic buses I can't remember anymore), but I recall tech gaffer guru Eltorro saying they're essentially the same.

Also, not sure where you heard the PS4 CPU is better. It's actually the X1's cpu that trumps it in that area since it's running at a higher clock speed. We only know the PS4 cpu's clockspeed is 1.6Ghz as of Feb 2013, it may have changed, it may have not...
Click to expand...

cheezcake said:
You can in fact add it up in the case of the X1, but the obvious limitation being you can only access 32MB of data with the ESRAM data bus at 140 GB/s and access the rest of the data in regular RAM at 62 GB/s.

In the end having a unified memory space which you can access at a flat 176 GB/s is going to be the better option
Click to expand...

Thanks stryke & cheezcake
 
NoMoreTrolls

NoMoreTrolls

Banned
Jack_AG said:
Who needs launch? We are already seeing differences - especially since a large majority of PS4 titles run 1080p native. Something must be pushing those extra pixels and it isn't pixie dust, unicorns or special sauce - its actual hardware. People choosing to remain ignorant to real-world examples and 3rd party devs speaking out and instead cling to theoretical impossible numbers will never eat crow.
Click to expand...

Nope. Just none of the PS4 games are doing anything as technically impressive at the Xbox One's exclusives. Just look at all the dynamic lighting and shadows in Forza! And all those PS4 games pale in comparison to Dead Rising 3! Fuck dynamic lighting, that game has dynamic RESOLUTION! /s

Obvious jokes aside, I think that the only people honestly clinging to there being no difference aren't ever going to be convinced. They'll always find a reason to discount the gap. When that fails, they'll say that it doesn't matter because the PS4's games all suck compared to the Xbox One's. Such is the life of a console warrior, but luckily they are few. Far better to remain neutral and buy the console that has the experiences you enjoy than to get held up on comparing your choice to one that you never intended to get anyway.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
EmptySpace said:
pr can only do so much. people are always blaming pr when the business-side decisions and technical-side decisions are the basis of pr. pr's only job is to sell the product, they never decided on xbone being underpowered, being more expensive, and having forced kinect.

in fact, it's harder for pr to sell a product that has that vision from the get-go. it was not pr who decided on the no-used games or always-online.
Click to expand...

Yes definitely
 
C

Coiote

Member
With the Wii U tanking, I can't see the xbox one failing, even in relation to x360. There is space on the market for both.
 
S

Sword Of Doom

Member
Perkel said:
Killer Instinct - 720p
Ryse - 900p
Battlefied 3 - 720p
Forza 5 -1080p/60

Killzone SF - 1080p60inmulti
Driveclub - 1080p targeting60
Second Son - 1080p
Knack - 1080p
Deep Down - 1080p(???)targeting 60fps.


This is real difference between those two consoles. PS4 outputs much higher resolution + better looking games at the same time.

No amount of special souse, dGpu, bandwidth write+read combination, low latency and pure grade A bullshit can change that.

And no you can't add up write and read. Max theoretical max bandwidth for Xbone is ~160GB/s. So 270GB/s is just pure bullshit.

You quote Shifty Gazeer without even reading what he wrote. He wrote that if MS got 150GB/s that this is possible especially since it is in theoretical maximum range. Thing is we don't trust MS on those numbers and artificial test may look way different to average game usage of memory
Click to expand...


You forgot Resogun 1080p/60

http://a.pomf.se/3Pe9.gif

edit: removed gif and put a link instead. Was slowing browser down
 
M

Manmademan

Member
Coiote said:
With the Wii U tanking, I can't see the xbox one failing, even in relation to x360. There is space on the market for both.
Click to expand...

depends on what your criteria for "failing" is. I think WiiU levels for it are just unrealistic, but a scenario where it simply fails to gain enough traction for microsoft to continue supporting it is certainly not out of the question.
 
T

timlot

Banned
stryke said:
To explain it in a noob way in which I understand it, while X1's GPU can access both eSRAM and DDR3 pools simultaneously (and effectively achieving the sum of both bandwidths), much of that high bandwidth capacity is restricted to just 32MB.
Click to expand...

From Tech Fellow...

"The Xbox 360 was the easiest console platform to develop for, it wasn't that hard for our developers to adapt to eDRAM, but there were a number of places where we said, 'gosh, it would sure be nice if an entire render target didn't have to live in eDRAM' and so we fixed that on Xbox One where we have the ability to overflow from ESRAM into DDR3, so the ESRAM is fully integrated into our page tables and so you can kind of mix and match the ESRAM and the DDR memory as you go."
 
NoMoreTrolls

NoMoreTrolls

Banned
Coiote said:
With the Wii U tanking, I can't see the xbox one failing, even in relation to x360. There is space on the market for both.
Click to expand...

I don't think the Xbox One will "fail" either, but that all depends on one's definition of the word. For some, it means failing to achieve the same market share percentage as it enjoyed this generation. For others, it is failing to achieve the same sales numbers as this gen. Yet still for others, the only "failure" would be a failure to make a ton of profit.

It's a wholly subjective term.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
timlot said:
From Tech Fellow...

"The Xbox 360 was the easiest console platform to develop for, it wasn't that hard for our developers to adapt to eDRAM, but there were a number of places where we said, 'gosh, it would sure be nice if an entire render target didn't have to live in eDRAM' and so we fixed that on Xbox One where we have the ability to overflow from ESRAM into DDR3, so the ESRAM is fully integrated into our page tables and so you can kind of mix and match the ESRAM and the DDR memory as you go."
Click to expand...

this doesn't really contradict what he said. The ESRAM can overflow into the DDR3, but that doesn't magically give the DDR3 the ability to run at the same speed as the ESRAM. you're still restricted to 68 GB/S for anything going into or out of DDR3.
 
A

astraycat

Member
timlot said:
From Tech Fellow...

"The Xbox 360 was the easiest console platform to develop for, it wasn't that hard for our developers to adapt to eDRAM, but there were a number of places where we said, 'gosh, it would sure be nice if an entire render target didn't have to live in eDRAM' and so we fixed that on Xbox One where we have the ability to overflow from ESRAM into DDR3, so the ESRAM is fully integrated into our page tables and so you can kind of mix and match the ESRAM and the DDR memory as you go."
Click to expand...

Sure, you can overflow into DDR3, but that gives up the high bandwidth of ESRAM. You will still only have 32MiB of high-bandwidth space to play with at any given time.
 
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