Being pro-MS isn't an issue for me. Its the blatant spreading of misinformation and FUD that gets you banned no matter which camp you are "pro" for.
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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
Keep on truckin'
I'm not always levelheaded, I can just usually catch myself before I hit 'Submit Reply'
cebri.one
Member
daaamn.
brilliant
Iacobellis
Junior Member
Damn... Team Vernia got the boot?
biased ? No just what we know about titles.
??? mark in Deep Down is that DD is suggested 1080p game but we do not have clear confirmation same as we don't have confirmation on battlefield PS4 resolution.
Aside from those we don't have any real data. Like we don't know native resolution of watch dogs or titanfall or destiny or almost any other game.
"Targeting" mark is actual factual data since those games were confirmed by devs to target 60fps like KZSF is targeting 60fps for multi, like DD confirmed by Ono is targeting 60fps. Driveclubs devs are yet to show any 60fps video but they confirmed they try to make it 60fps but they are still unsure and this may change
eddfromtheriver
Banned
I agree with you, good sir.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
So you manage to level yourself before hitting "post" then!
Silly.Mikey
Banned
I agree too but in the end, word of mouth is also important and im not convinced MS will do better than Sony on that front. That will influence a lot of the casuals.
walltowall
Member
When I look at what MS is pushing, the NFL, fitness, VOD discovery, even the AV component design stylings. I think they are going after a more affluent buyer right off the bat and thus, to themselves at least, they justify the price. They are not selling a game system, they are selling a multimedia box that plays games.
That consumer is out there I'm just not sure there are enough of them initially.
eddfromtheriver
Banned
WoM is on Sony's side of the court right now, they also have the price advantage (a huge advantage and the most important one IMO), and it's the most powerful console out of the two newcomers to boot... they have CoD on it... they have most everything going for them... better yields... list goes on...
Silly.Mikey
Banned
I agree. To me MS has already lost next gen. Its a shame.
Pristine_Condition
Member
I think the mods have way, way more important things to do than referee System Wars ban bets.
...like looking up at random clouds and going "oh, that one looks like a baby duck!" And clipping thier toenails, and other stuff.
Manmademan
Member
i agree. i think the box was planned from the outset to target the most profitable segment of the xbox userbase. Even now, it's nigh useless without xbox live- none of the multimedia functions even work.
fastford58
Member
I suspect the mods have been quite busy since, oh, about E3.
Dreamgazer
Member
I'm pretty sure it's been busy since the Feb 10 PS4 event.
Which movie?
Barton Fink
The more I think about Xbone, the less sense it makes that MS screwed up so badly with the architecture. I get that they wanted 8GB of RAM, that explains why they went with DDR3 and needed embedded RAM. So they could have gone for 64Mb with 500+GB/sec bandwidth.
But then they went with only 3x the amount of 360, with less than half the bandwidth of the 360's eDRAM. Less eDRAM bandwidth than their last-gen console, which was released 8 years ago and was designed for 720p. Can anybody at all explain to me—outside of cost—in what world this made sense? I need to know why MS made such a boneheaded decision. It's such a poor choice that it cries out for explanation, my mind isn't satisfied with 'they didn't think it would be that much of an issue', because it's already an issue and the console isn't even out.
But then they went with only 3x the amount of 360, with less than half the bandwidth of the 360's eDRAM. Less eDRAM bandwidth than their last-gen console, which was released 8 years ago and was designed for 720p. Can anybody at all explain to me—outside of cost—in what world this made sense? I need to know why MS made such a boneheaded decision. It's such a poor choice that it cries out for explanation, my mind isn't satisfied with 'they didn't think it would be that much of an issue', because it's already an issue and the console isn't even out.
64mb of esram would be ridiculously large. they wouldn't be able to produce many APU's at all, not only would yields decrease to failure but the number of APU's fitting on a wafer would also decrease massively too so if they're going to be out shipped by Sony now, imagine how bad it would have been.
Yeah but why not just use eDRAM instead of eSRAM?
eSRAM increases the amount of places that you can fab your SoC at and probably (but im not 100%) shrinks quicker with newer process nodes.
So the only reason is cost?
Well damn. Hard to believe that an early decision that could have been so beneficial (the 8GB RAM) has fucked them over so hard in the long run.
Yes, thinking about it, it's definitely the fabrication, KidBeta is right, especially because IIRC AMD cannot license the APU for MS production. Tt needs to be done by an official AMD partner due to the x86 deal they have with nVidia perhaps?
It will shrink quicker than edram, but only because edram takes up less space, but requires additional phases in the fab.
Not necessarily AMD may not be able to produce an APU in x86 with Edram. but then again I suppose they could have thrown such a large amount of money at AMD to have them create a new foundry(or factory? what word am i thinking of?), but that would be super expensive.
Iirc the 256gb/sec or whatever they claimed on 360 has a gigantic asterisk next to it...you only get that when using MSAA 4x which very few games did (not enough space to fit MSAA 4X 720p without tiling)...the reason is that there is special circuitry to make MSAA "free" and the additional writes for MSAA are included in the bandwidth figure they quote.
See here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/1689/2
I don't know offhand the actual number but if you look up the bandwidth between the gpu and the daughter die with the edram, that is imho the "true" bandwidth, somewhere in the 25gb/sec range.
Edit: 32gb/sec according to this: http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/3
I thought that the point was that alpha blending, z-buffer operations, etc. all took place in the daughter die and hence made used of the 256GB/sec bandwidth between the logic in the daughter die and the eDRAM?
That's really not the case. If you're thinking about the 256GB/s number that's been floated, that is a virtual number, only valid for 4xMSAA with blending. But the 360's eDRAM bus can not transfer 256GB/s. It's because the ROPs are tightly coupled with the memory cells, and they perform these typically bandwidth-hogging tasks inside the memory array, without loading the memory bus.
If you use 4xMSAA, every shaded pixel moving to a ROP might be written to up to 4 samples in the framebuffer. If you use alpha blending, every sample update is a read-modify-write operation on the color buffer, and if you use z-testing and z-writes (the standard case), it's also a read-modify-write operation on the z samples.
But if you disable any of these operations, their allotted bandwidth simply disappears. You can't trade off the bandwidth used by, say MSAA and funnel it into faster alpha blends. The bandwidth supporting fast MSAA is virtual, and only exists when MSAA is actually enabled.
Long story short, the actual eDRAM bus bandwidth of the Xbox 360 is just a little bit above 32GB/s.That's your 500MHz * 8x64bit for color+z. The little bit extra is
1)a 4 bit mask per pixel for triangle coverage, and
2)some depth gradient to compute final depth per MSAA sample; format and exact size unknown.
Hmm, I see. Thanks for the clarification. So the eDRAM fiasco isn't as bad a fuck up as I thought, but still seems a pretty major fuck up all things considered.
Crimson_Fate
Member
I think that Microsoft thought that it was putting out a gaming system which was better specked then what they perceived Sony had to offer and simply got caught with their pants down.
Remember all of the info that Sony was putting out about going possibly with 4GB ram etc.. I think MS did just enough to make sure they would be better then what they they believed Sony was going to release the next year.
Then recall that before the official reveal all you heard about was advancements of the Kinect and at the reveal all you heard about was TV. I really think that MS believed that that they had the game piece in hand and that the combo of the "TV BOX" and Kinect would put them over the top.
I need to give credit to Sony for keeping their specs close to their vest since MS seemed like dear in headlights. The fact that MS overclocked their processors is proof enough that they truly had no clue.
Now that I look at it again, I think you are right. It's interesting that as far as I know basically no one has pursued a similar design since, though. Just saying "oh it's 256gb/sec" doesn't really tell the whole story, though.
Edit: I pretty much agree with Rolf NB's assessment.
It's pretty easy to figure out why the Xbone's specs are what they are. They wanted 8GB for multimedia and multitasking which meant DDR3. That lead them to including 32MB of eSRAM to compensate for the slow bandwidth. The eSRAM ate into the silicon budget for the SoC so they had to take away from the GPU.
Sony built a machine for gaming so you get 8GB GDDR5 and a straight-forward configuration. No pain in the ass eSRAM to manage or conflation of bandwidth numbers.
Sony built a machine for gaming so you get 8GB GDDR5 and a straight-forward configuration. No pain in the ass eSRAM to manage or conflation of bandwidth numbers.
TetraGenesis
Member
Sometimes I just like to come into this thread and marvel at it's longevity. 
Sword Of Doom
Member
Yeah to say Klocker was confident in his claims is an understatement
travisbickle
Member
I thought more conspiracies would come out from Eurogamer Expo. Aren't there a few multi-platform titles on show? I imagined at least a few "this one looks like shit compared to this one" hyperbole and people judging off-screen footage.
When you say "a feeling"...
SwiftDeath
Member
Fairly certain that's misterxmedia rumors
If so it's nothing
That guy has the most ridiculous claims I have ever heard for any console ever
Just a feeling.
This thread has gone on for over 130 pages, there has to be something new to talk about that will pull people away from this thread for good.
A lot of Rumors lately, thanks to the whole watchdogs PS4 > xb1 followed by the whole PS4 > xb1 BF rumors.
some one needs to add "balance" to these arguments, that someone is Balanceman!
He has the power to balance spinning green plates with ease, he is Richard Leadbetter.
But yea, I'm expecting a "tech deep-dive" with some "hardball questions"
AstroNut325
Member
53 days man. We're less than 53 days away from our first DF comparison. The GAF servers will melt for this thread alone.
badcrumble
Member
Well, we won't be seeing head-to-head performance comparisons of multiplatform titles until November.
There'll likely be news items that come out before then, but none of them will be particularly meaty, IMO, until we actually see real-world evidence of a power disparity (or until we don't see a difference).
There'll likely be news items that come out before then, but none of them will be particularly meaty, IMO, until we actually see real-world evidence of a power disparity (or until we don't see a difference).
DF already tweeted that there is more to come. (Part of it will be rops)
DangerMouse
Member
daaamn.
Wow. That's amazing.
Source? other than you of course?
I got the impression from that is that they felt like they had already sold the preexisting audience on the brand and thought they needed to come out strong for where they wanted to push the audience, but it was the wrong assumption and the wrong venue. They should have come out strong with games and then offered how they were expanding, show the familiar and then how the new and unfamiliar builds off and supports it. Game developers should (and some do) do this as well. You often see people hate on sequels because they screwed up the game and it most often it is not keeping enough of it familiar. I think this is true of people in general, but is a lesson that could be really applied to gamers, you pretty much need to resell yourself every time.
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