(I am ashamed someone at gamefaqs made the same exact joke I did, though I didn’t realize it until I was almost done writing this)

I’ll start by admitting that FF tactics is one of my favorite games of all times. I was super, super eager to play TO. I had played a few missions when the game came out (and even played some of the PSX version), but could never find the time to really commit myself to it.

I am taking my first ‘laid back’ vacation in a very long time, and decided to immerse myself in it .

I do realize that TO is not meant to be exactly like FFT (or rather, that FFT differed from TO in many key aspects).

In spite of that realization, I can’t help but be a bit disappointed :/
But I am coming to the realization that it’s probably more due to me not being a good fit to most tactics games (I have never tried the disgaeas but I am now pretty sure I would hate them).

There is a lot to like in this game.
The battle/job system is mostly better than FFT, and given that FFT had a great battle system, it says a lot about TO’s.

The branching aspect of the story is really impressive. I am not sure there are that many games that allow you to make such strong choices, and have the choices *actually matter*. Modern games sure lot to pretend to force you to make difficult choices (hello, Mass Effect, hey there, Telltale), but let’s be honest, after playing a few of those, you start saying the really thick strings the storytellers are pulling, and acknowledge that most of the choices truly are meaningless. Not so here. You’re essentially getting a few games for the price of one.

The art is just perfect. I would pay big monies for any game yoshida had his hand in, and I think this is probably his best work (though I will be forever amused by the noseless characters of FFT). I cherish the preorder tarot card as my most prized gaming possession.
Even the older art borrowed from the SNES by way of the PSX is beautiful pixel goodness. Only downside are the spells mostly look like shit, especially compared to the fireworks of FF Tactics special abilities, but that’s a really minor detail (and I never really liked summoners anyway).

Story is.. well, it sounds like it's great. I am not sure it’s wonderfully told (it’s easy to get confused about who’s backstabbing whom at any point in time, and I am trying to follow this shit). I am on chaos path, and it’s a bit similar to FFT (again: i realize FFT is aping TO’s chaos path story, and not the opposite; nevertheless, it’s not a hugely original story in any case). Wish I had gone with law path instead .
What I am really liking so far is the purely ‘geopolitical’ aspect of the story. No crazy old evil behing everything, just people greedy for power making war with each other. I fully expect to be disappointed about this later on, but at the very least the core of the story is very low fantasy, which is a welcome change from most games.

I had played a bit of the PSX version, and as far as remakes, it’s a tremendous labor of love. I am not sure I have ever played a better made remake than this. Gameplay tweaks, new art, new missions, improved music (I think?), improved translation (if you like ye old englishe - at least characters names are much better, I think).

So.. what’s there not to like?

Well, see, in tactics game, I love feeling like a battle is difficult, and yet I am able to prevail due to cleverness. Not just going through the same old, rote, tactics (swarm healers, heal tanks, yadda), but really improvising due to the configuration of the battlefield. It happens, arguably rarely in both TO and tactics, but it definitely happens, and it feels great.
What I think is boring, largely due to the fact I now have limited gaming time, is grinding. I don’t enjoy spending hours doing the same thing over and over to fill some bars. It’s a plague of gaming, and a plague of tactics games in general. But what I really like about FF tactics, is, if you are careful (and warned about a few key spots), you don’t have to grind at all. You can just go through all story missions in a row, and be done.

It might be that TO does not require any grinding at all. I somehow doubt it. But this put aside, the single, biggest, game-destroying flaw of this game, is the stupendously stupid idea of starting all classes at level 1. Not a big deal at the beginning of the game, the classes can more or less catch up (my denam is a ninja). But for anything in late game, or creatures you somehow only acquire later on (warlock->golems only come much later, all dragon classes are independent; and most unique have their own classes. Hello, incredibly powerful white knights! You suck huge monkey balls compared to the rest of my team, congratulations! not a surprise )

So basically it feels you’re either forced to cheese the game with archers and knights, or give up on late game classes / creatures. It doesn’t feel like there is an easy way to make up for this. Sure you can have them tag along in normal battles with superpowered units, and get them to leech a lot of the experience, but it still takes forever to catch up (esp. since you superpower units, even though they get less experience, are still going forward).
I am also not sure why I should penalize myself out of a few precious units spots for participating in ‘take your idiot classes to battle' day.
I could perhaps train groups of low level classes participate in random battles that will be level appropriate(thanks to rubberbanding of random battle difficulty). But that also takes forever.

This whole issue is particularly egregious given the battle system, whose main flaw (I think) is to penalize hugely level differences. If you don’t have amazing gear (which you can’t equip at low levels), and a ton of useful skills, being a few levels behind can often mean you’ll barely touch an enemy’s HPs, while he will gladly one-hit-kill-you. So even taking low levels units to battle is not fun, since they just have to hide all the time. You want them to contribute, but they can’t do shit. I can’t count the number of times I see my damage predictor to be ‘1HP’ (I do it anyway), before being attacked back for like 100HP damage.
A ratio of 100/1 for a few levels imbalance just seems ridiculous IMO.

I wish for a tactics like game, where the units are given to you at the beginning of every battle. No grinding between battles. Just clever thinking. Every board designed like a puzzle.

So, perhaps I am not fit for the tactics genre. I like having to choose how to spend my job points / skill points / whatever. I like that battle are more complex than regular RPG battles.
But I just can’t get myself to spend dozens upon dozens of hours doing the same shit over and over again. It’s fun, but it feels like alcoholism. Kind of breaks my heart.

Have you tried Advance Wars? It sounds like something you might like since there isn't any leveling involved, you just start with certain units and can make more during each stage/chapter but nothing carries over.

Sounds like you need some Advance Wars?

You're given set units and in some stages, a base which lets you deploy whatever units you desire. Not a SRPG, it's a straight up strategy game.

I thought this was gonna be about how long these battle take. I grinded a bit to stop my troops from totally whiffing when they attack. Battles are still as long as my dick.

James Woods said:

I thought this was gonna be about how long these battle take. I grinded a bit to stop my troops from totally whiffing when they attack. Battles are still as long as my dick.

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Oh, so not that long.

I felt very similarly towards the game as you did. There's a lot to like but there's too much de-emphisis of tactics in favor of levels (not to say there's no tactics in the game, of course). I don't like that in a SRPG.

James Woods said:

I thought this was gonna be about how long these battle take. I grinded a bit to stop my troops from totally whiffing when they attack. Battles are still as long as my dick.

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Well, battles being so long is certainly a huge part of why grinding sucks. In my rant about grinding, I forgot two things I dislike about the game:

Units are so fucking slow. It’s unbearable. The maps are huge, and some units can barely move, especially because so much of the terrain is difficult (rivers and castles galore).

Which, as a result, makes archers and distance units generally speaking ridiculously overpowered. Archers take the cake, given they do about as much damage as melee units, but do it at a _massive_ range, and with the right abilities, rarely ever miss. I can’t help but think the game balance is broken a bit.

Oh - and a third one -story missions are almost always of the type: “kill the leader”, which renders a lot of strategy pointless. Even if you are underpowered, swarm the leader (and distract the idiot healers), wait to accumulate TP, use special arts, rinse and repeat.

James Woods said:

I thought this was gonna be about how long these battle take. I grinded a bit to stop my troops from totally whiffing when they attack. Battles are still as long as my dick.

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Short battles? sounds like my kind of game.

Thanks for the recommendation about advance wars, btw. It’s too bad it doesn’t have yoshida art, Sakimoto music, or a medieval setting, which for some reason I prefer

Any particular rec about which I should play first? A good story helps (but is not required if it’s at the expense of a great game)

I am tempted to hack my game saves whenever I get a new class. I am not sure if it’s possible, but it might improve the game tenfold for me (some issues will remain, however).

harriet the spy said:

Any particular rec about which I should play first? A good story helps (but is not required if it’s at the expense of a great game)

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I've only played the two GBA ones and a little bit of Dual Strike. I don't remember if there's an overarching plot, but a lot of the same characters reappear so I'd just start with the first one. The plot isn't anything amazing from what I recall, but the game mechanics are fantastic and the characters have some good dialogue.

If you want a more serious plot from the get-go, I know some people swear by Days of Ruin. So definitely check that one out carefully before deciding where to start. I wish I could tell you more, but I haven't played that one yet.

My criteria for SRPGs is how easy it is to break the game and how much grinding it takes. It was always hard for me to get into FFT for that reason

harriet the spy said:

Thanks for the recommendation about advance wars, btw. It’s too bad it doesn’t have yoshida art, Sakimoto music, or a medieval setting, which for some reason I prefer

Any particular rec about which I should play first? A good story helps (but is not required if it’s at the expense of a great game)

I am tempted to hack my game saves whenever I get a new class. I am not sure if it’s possible, but it might improve the game tenfold for me (some issues will remain, however).

Click to expand...

what systems do you currently own?

harriet the spy said:

Thanks for the recommendation about advance wars, btw. It’s too bad it doesn’t have yoshida art, Sakimoto music, or a medieval setting, which for some reason I prefer

Any particular rec about which I should play first? A good story helps (but is not required if it’s at the expense of a great game)

I am tempted to hack my game saves whenever I get a new class. I am not sure if it’s possible, but it might improve the game tenfold for me (some issues will remain, however).

Click to expand...

If you want a good story Advance Wars: Days of Ruin is quite good. It's a serious game instead of a light-hearted one like the other three. Regardless I was surprised how much the story drew me in. The characters are quite good and the over-all plot is serviceable.

harriet the spy said:

Thanks for the recommendation about advance wars, btw. It’s too bad it doesn’t have yoshida art, Sakimoto music, or a medieval setting, which for some reason I prefer

Any particular rec about which I should play first? A good story helps (but is not required if it’s at the expense of a great game)

I am tempted to hack my game saves whenever I get a new class. I am not sure if it’s possible, but it might improve the game tenfold for me (some issues will remain, however).

Click to expand...

I most definitely recommend that you play Dark Conflict/Dark Ruin first since this is the most balanced one. Also, is the most fun one personally.

The Return of said:

My criteria for SRPGs is how easy it is to break the game and how much grinding it takes. It was always hard for me to get into FFT for that reason



what systems do you currently own?

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I assume you mean a good SRPG for you is one where you grind a lot and where breaking the game is hard? (since FFT doesn’t require grinding and is fairly easy to break).

I have a DS, 3DS, PSP and Vita (not sure if you were asking with regards to hacking my savegames or playing advance wars).

harriet the spy said:

I assume you mean a good SRPG for you is one where you grind a lot and where breaking the game is hard? (since FFT doesn’t require grinding and is fairly easy to break).

I have a DS, 3DS, PSP and Vita (not sure if you were asking with regards to hacking my savegames or playing advance wars).

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no? A good srpg for me is one that doesn't require grinding and isn't easy to break. FFT is very easy to break and I would certainly file FFT under grinding because it does have moments where it's necessary.

Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is a pretty underrated SRPG on DS. You cannot grind the game at all. Gungnir is another one that doesn't have too much grinding, but it's a bit difficult as well.


I'm going to try to think of some more that have somewhat similar settings like Tactics Ogre and FFT that you may enjoy

The Return of said:

no? A good srpg for me is one that doesn't require grinding and isn't easy to break. FFT is very easy to break and I would certainly file FFT under grinding because it does have moments where it's necessary.

Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is a pretty underrated SRPG on DS. You cannot grind the game at all. Gungnir is another one that doesn't have too much grinding, but it's a bit difficult as well.


I'm going to try to think of some more that have somewhat similar settings like Tactics Ogre and FFT that you may enjoy

Click to expand...

Thanks for the recs I loved VP’s universe so I might like VP:CotP, though my memory is that GAF either thought it was shit or ridiculously difficult (or both?)

I really don’t think FFT requires that much grinding; I played the game three times and never really grinded at any point (with one exception: the very beginning of the game has a pretty tough battle which can be aided by some very moderate grinding, and I had to grind a bit ). Other than that, it feels a million times less grind-heavy than TO. Though I assume it’s possible to lower the grindiness of TO by only using base classes.

This topic was made for Front Mission

go play Front Mission.

harriet the spy said:

Thanks for the recs I loved VP’s universe so I might like VP:CotP, though my memory is that GAF either thought it was shit or ridiculously difficult (or both?)

I really don’t think FFT requires that much grinding; I played the game three times and never really grinded at any point (with one exception: the very beginning of the game has a pretty tough battle which can be aided by some very moderate grinding, and I had to grind a bit

Spoiler

before Wiegraf to unlock accumulate and buy some potions

). Other than that, it feels a million times less grind-heavy than TO. Though I assume it’s possible to lower the grindiness of TO by only using base classes.

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I'm not really defending TO, because I'm not too big on it either. I just like the stories of both games


Yes, that VP DS game has quite a few moments where it gets difficult. I think it's certainly worth a shot, should be somewhat cheap now

Making equipment level-based was the worst idea in the game. I'm used to leveling up new classes from level 1 in games like Disgaea, but in those games you can equip extremely high-level gear so the stat difference isn't as vast and they might even survive a hit. It also means that, as you level up your new classes in TO, you need to switch out their gear every battle or two.

The other worst part of the game is the crafting system. So incredibly tedious having to get base materials, watch animations as you convert them one-at-a-time (with 100% chance to succeed - making the ordeal even more pointless), then convert several of those into another new element, then combine those with a piece of gear to get a slightly stronger piece of gear. But those last two steps will have a success rate of something between 50 and 75%, which means... save scumming, because why the fuck would you spend another ten minutes combining the base materials again if it means you might fail again?

Alebeard said:

This topic was made for Front Mission

go play Front Mission.

Click to expand...

I always wanted to play Front Mission. Are they best played sequentially? Which is the best?

(there is no super insane grind, right?)

aett said:

Making equipment level-based was the worst idea in the game. I'm used to leveling up new classes from level 1 in games like Disgaea, but in those games you can equip extremely high-level gear so the stat difference isn't as vast and they might even survive a hit. It also means that, as you level up your new classes in TO, you need to switch out their gear every battle or two.

The other worst part of the game is the crafting system. So incredibly tedious having to get base materials, watch animations as you convert them one-at-a-time (with 100% chance to succeed - making the ordeal even more pointless), then convert several of those into another new element, then combine those with a piece of gear to get a slightly stronger piece of gear. But those last two steps will have a success rate of something between 50 and 75%, which means... save scumming, because why the fuck would you spend another ten minutes combining the base materials again if it means you might fail again?

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Yes, I think a big part of my frustration with TO is that it feels *that close* to being a completely, thoroughly, spectacular game. And yet, horrible mistakes like those (level 1 classes, equipment being level based, crafting) prevent it from reaching that status IMO.
I don’t even mind a ridiculous amount of grinding in the post game for people who want to go through 200 level dungeons, that’s cool. But not part of the main game, not a sine qua non condition for accessing cool classes. That’s just bad.

Get Front Mission 3 off PSN store

harriet the spy said:

I always wanted to play Front Mission. Are they best played sequentially? Which is the best?

(there is no super insane grind, right?)



Yes, I think a big part of my frustration with TO is that it feels *that close* to being a completely, thoroughly, spectacular game. And yet, horrible mistakes like those (level 1 classes, equipment being level based, crafting) prevent it from reaching that status IMO.
I don’t even mind a ridiculous amount of grinding in the post game for people who want to go through 200 level dungeons, that’s cool. But not part of the main game, not a sine qua non condition for accessing cool classes. That’s just bad.

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Missions dont have grind at all.
There are options, depending on the game that you play, like the Arena where you can bet on fights for money and stuff to equip your mechs and such.
I'd Start at FM3. Or, if you can find it, the snes Front Mission got ported to the DS and its pretty much the original verbatim. The Front Mission series is my personal fav tactics series on consoles and I'd punt a baby for get a proper next gen FM game. If you really get into it, there's a full fan translation of FM5:Scars of War as well.

I can vouch that no grinding at all is required for the pre-Wheel part TO:LUCT (at least on Law).

I completed a No-Chariot / No Incap run* , while trying to avoid levelling too much (so that I didn't miss out on some items that become missable if all the classes Denam has access to are above certain levels), I did do side quests that were missable or resulted in characters. And I did spend a while farming Glass Pumpkins and using Crafting to have the money to recruit Deneb without messing up my level.

I didn't use a particularly broken party either (Canopus and 1 Archer , where about the extent of my cheese until I got Ranger and Knight Commander) and I even used a Valkyrie for a good chunk of the mid game.

The thing about this game that drove me nuts was the crafting system (which is terrible) and the missables (which include 1 spell each for Samurai and Ninja). Also the Guest AI being suicidally moronic.

I really must do the alternate paths and the post game but every time I think about I get stuck deciding what part I should do next and then something shiny catches my attention before I decide.

*By the games standards. I abused the everliving heck out of Quick Save and the non-counting Chariot use where appropriate.

I've never messed with the Tactics Ogre series, but I did enjoy FFT and some strategy RPG for the Game Gear that I can't recall. Reading this thread really turns me off of it, though. I think the ranged character advantage makes me cringe the most. I had tried Advanced Wars, but I could never get into it. I think I wanted a little more depth. I had only played the original of that, though.