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DisneyPrincess Mafia |OT| Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, Whos the Scummiest of Them All
- Thread starter YesNOnoNOYes
- Start date
This Dusk Soldier swing was incredible. Where were some of you guys? Did you guys miss this exchange?
Ultron87 claims he is Giselle. The one from Enchanted that Seath is heavily breadcrumbing himself to be.
1. Why would a scum fake Ultron87 counterclaim this?
2. Why would Seath pretend to be someone he isn't? It's provoked an unnecessary name claim already, and it could've done more damage than that if Ultron87 wasn't seasoned and knew how to handle that scenario.
Seath's Response:
What the fucking fuck?
Here are some delicious responses to this incredibly anti-town play from Seath's part:
Yea, he's done nothing other than the pretending to be someone else and forcing them to name claim part for no reason at all. Real good stuff here.
He was a bad choice? Why, exactly? Seath had such little pressure on him for what could've been himself being caught in scummy behavior. It was our best lead yesterday.
The worst part about Seath is that I don't sense any desire at all for him to actually want to play mafia traditionally. He's acting pretty much squarely in the neutral camp. I'd put the odds of him being a neutral at like 95%.
That said, this entire post has been formed before I've even looked at the 2nd day start. So I might reevaluate this. However, I didn't have a chance to post this the last day phase because of work and I want to say it now.
Ultron87 claims he is Giselle. The one from Enchanted that Seath is heavily breadcrumbing himself to be.
1. Why would a scum fake Ultron87 counterclaim this?
2. Why would Seath pretend to be someone he isn't? It's provoked an unnecessary name claim already, and it could've done more damage than that if Ultron87 wasn't seasoned and knew how to handle that scenario.
Seath's Response:
What the fucking fuck?
Here are some delicious responses to this incredibly anti-town play from Seath's part:
Yea, he's done nothing other than the pretending to be someone else and forcing them to name claim part for no reason at all. Real good stuff here.
He was a bad choice? Why, exactly? Seath had such little pressure on him for what could've been himself being caught in scummy behavior. It was our best lead yesterday.
The worst part about Seath is that I don't sense any desire at all for him to actually want to play mafia traditionally. He's acting pretty much squarely in the neutral camp. I'd put the odds of him being a neutral at like 95%.
That said, this entire post has been formed before I've even looked at the 2nd day start. So I might reevaluate this. However, I didn't have a chance to post this the last day phase because of work and I want to say it now.
I feel like you're right, and I completely misinterpreted Seath's posts...hmmmm.
What does this mean? Why can you only assume that when we have a dead body? Did you kill the dead body? How would you, in your claimed lover's role, have killed that dead body?
weemadarthur
Member
Look at the italics in the quotes Darryl posted right there.
Ultron "So they clearly aren't "
Seath "true"
Also Seath denied claiming that they were Giselle in post 375
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=195898334&highlight=#post195898334
I'm not suggesting I read them as town. Just that there was no name claim in the GIFs. The GIFs may however, have been a response to someone who was also bread crumbing finding someone.
Yeah I probably should've harped on it more.
Look, if you're going to post stuff as if you're one character the whole time, post gifs exclusively as that character, and talk about the true loves first kiss and finding a prince which is that entire characters schtick (http://youtu.be/FPw5EVLb6Zk) you can't just go, oh well I'm not claiming to be them.
Giselle is a deep enough Disney cut that I could see someone who needed a princess to claim as (because they are Malificent or Frolo or Ursula or whatever) picking her as a fake claim. Or it could be someone hiding their actual good role and just wanting to be Giselle as some form of cover. If Seath had actually contributed something I'd be less concerned.
Look, if you're going to post stuff as if you're one character the whole time, post gifs exclusively as that character, and talk about the true loves first kiss and finding a prince which is that entire characters schtick (http://youtu.be/FPw5EVLb6Zk) you can't just go, oh well I'm not claiming to be them.
Giselle is a deep enough Disney cut that I could see someone who needed a princess to claim as (because they are Malificent or Frolo or Ursula or whatever) picking her as a fake claim. Or it could be someone hiding their actual good role and just wanting to be Giselle as some form of cover. If Seath had actually contributed something I'd be less concerned.
All of that took place after Ultron87 came out with his name claim, no?
Why would town have done any of this? Where is the scum hunting?
weemadarthur
Member
Yes, Seath has some splainin to do.
As it is, I am concerned they were a recruitable mafia. I suspect, if so, they've been recruited overnight, since nobody could miss those hints.
As it is, I am concerned they were a recruitable mafia. I suspect, if so, they've been recruited overnight, since nobody could miss those hints.
AbsolutBro
Member
Pretty much exactly what he means. He and Sept, if they are actually Lovers, also have some sort of kill power:
Of course, it apparently did not go well:
I'll assume this is a reference to another game where he had a kill power. I haven't followed all the games, so I couldn't tell you which one.
I mean, it's pretty clear from this post alone that Terrabyte is claiming responsibility for Panda's death. Whether or not it's true is obviously up for debate, but I don't really see a reason to claim responsibility unless:
1. Terra and Sept are being the most blatant scum players ever.
2. They are responsible.
weemadarthur
Member
Oh, I'm not defending Seath that far.
Certainly it's reasonable to disbelieve that they weren't role claiming. I only pointed out that they specifically denied it.
I expect to see some analysis and valuable posts today phase, or I will be happy to have roadkill rather than a sloth.
Freakinchair
Member
Also keep in mind that Seath never changed her vote from Terra - even after the lovers reveal. It's almost guaranteed as well that scum would have
pushed for the bandwagon against Dusk Soldier (or at least participated) if Seath is scum since Seath was highest in votes at the time.
By deduction as well a scum would not have voted for Seath ever. So we need to look at people who only voted for Dusk Soldier when the bandwagon started that never voted for Seath.
This list of suspected people is:
gryvan
Fireblend
Unmasked Ferret
Royal_Flush
TheExodu5 (seems to suspect Seath at this point though)
My list of good people who voted for Seath at one point are:
ultron87
Darryl
Septimus Prime (and by proxy Terra) (Changed votes from Seath for bandwagon)
Enker
Zatoth
Lone_prodigy (Changed his vote from Seath for bandwagon)
Mazre
Myself
I think the best course of action at this point is to lynch Seath as it will give us the most information about what happened Day 1. If it turns out my assumption is correct, and Seath IS scum, we have a decent list of people to look into.
VOTE: Seath
Unmasked Ferret
Member
The idea that scum wouldn't have voted for Seath is a little silly. A good scum team would be more than willing to vote for each other.
Given how Seath was playing, if Seath were scum there is a real posiblity that some of their teammates would be more than willing to vote for Seath to distance themselves from Seath for playing so oddly. Seath as scum sets an obvious target on their back with their play style, and while scum may try to save them they wouldn't be so obvious about it (if they were smart at least).
Just something to consider.
Actually let's go off of this idea, looking at your two list above who sticks out to you from each list? One or two people from each list is fine, but when looking at your good list really do consider that if Seath were scum it doesn't necessarily mean that other scum didn't vote for them.
weemadarthur
Member
Scum may have voted for Seath, if Seath was recruited to the scum team during Night 1, which happened later. Or to look unsuspicious when reviewed at a future time.
Seath may have been watching the Dusk Soldier bandwagon and realized 1 more vote wasn't needed, so refrained from public bandwagon.
However, this being a circumstantial argument only, I think a better vote for today is Terrabyte.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
CURRENT VOTE TALLY:
Seath (1)
Freakinchair .561
No active vote for Day 2:
AbsolutBro
Christina Mackenzie
Darryl
Enker
euphemism
Fireblend
GreatCharleston
gryvan
Lone_Prodigy
Mazre
Royal_Flush
Seath
Septimus Prime
StackpoleH
Terrabyte20xx
TheExodu5
Trigger
ultron87
Unmasked Ferret
weemadarthur
Zatoth
Day 2 ends:
12 votes for majority
Septimus Prime
Member
Terrabyte? Seriously? So you think he and I are the most blatant scum players ever, then.
I stated yesterday that I'd be ok with voting Seath in order to avoid a tie if it came to that. If they were scum along with me, that'd be one pretty shit statement to make. Anyway, I agree with the general sentiment that unless they deliver in some huge way today, Seath is a fine lynch candidate for today.
Also, I believe the lovers. There's been plenty of time for someone to make a counterclaim and the whole thing would be an unnecessarily risky bluff for scum.
Also, I believe the lovers. There's been plenty of time for someone to make a counterclaim and the whole thing would be an unnecessarily risky bluff for scum.
weemadarthur
Member
I think Terrabyte is someone who can't be trusted with a gun no matter what team he's on.
I believe you have a private chat. I just don't think claiming lovers was necessary. I gave you an alternative before you claimed. Which you ignored, apparently on the basis that you - a two person town team with night kill power (alleged) - was less valuable than Darryl or Seath. I can't reconcile it with any possible gambit I can think of, but I'm very inexperienced.
Could you please explain your reasoning for not busing another player, regardless of whether they're Town or not, when that role claim was known only to the two of you?
Unmasked Ferret
Member
So you are willing to risk losing two townies should the lover claim be true? Granted there's two scum if it is a lie. The risk doesn't seem worth it with the information currently available.
How are you feeling about Daryll now, same as before?
Fireblend you actually made it to day 2, how excited are you?
Chair I forgot to ask, I assume that your post above isn't why you switched from a no lynch to Seath at the last moment on D1. What were you reasons for doing so, especially since you defended no lynch so much before that? Or am I wrong and that is your reason?
weemadarthur
Member
I find Terrabyte is avoiding answering questions, while claiming weird stuff. He could, as I said, be a Town player who makes very bad decisions. In which case, I do think he could do more harm than good.
If they're scum, there's no reason to even think they're lovers. They would certainly have a private chat.
And, I'm trying to understand why they wouldn't bandwagon Darryl or Seath. I can't think of a single reason that would be good for Town. Again, if you have an explanation, please do offer it.
So I tried to think why that wouldn't bandwagon Darryl or Seath if the lovers were scum. And all I've got is, those are also team members. It seems a bit of a stretch, but it's all I've got. What if Darryl really is their godfather?
Id have expected them bus Seath in that case. Even being recruitable doesn't quite work with it. Maybe if Seath was open scum. But I'm not sure, in the event of a recruit member, that they could have been sure 100% Seath was it. I was bread crumbing scumtells all over my Day 1 posts in order to distract mafia attention in case we had some neutrals. If mafia were to waste a look or a kill on me, that would be a net positive.
If they're scum, there's no reason to even think they're lovers. They would certainly have a private chat.
And, I'm trying to understand why they wouldn't bandwagon Darryl or Seath. I can't think of a single reason that would be good for Town. Again, if you have an explanation, please do offer it.
So I tried to think why that wouldn't bandwagon Darryl or Seath if the lovers were scum. And all I've got is, those are also team members. It seems a bit of a stretch, but it's all I've got. What if Darryl really is their godfather?
Id have expected them bus Seath in that case. Even being recruitable doesn't quite work with it. Maybe if Seath was open scum. But I'm not sure, in the event of a recruit member, that they could have been sure 100% Seath was it. I was bread crumbing scumtells all over my Day 1 posts in order to distract mafia attention in case we had some neutrals. If mafia were to waste a look or a kill on me, that would be a net positive.
I found a lot of Terra's posts to be odd and more than a bit cryptic. I'm willing to accept his claim as true for now.
VOTE: GreatCharleston
I think that it's time you chime in. What are your thoughts on Seath? Anybody seem suspicious to you?
lol
VOTE: GreatCharleston
I think that it's time you chime in. What are your thoughts on Seath? Anybody seem suspicious to you?
lol
Quick post before work. Can't really fathom why Terrabyte is being so obtuse at this point. Seath and GreatCharleston both need to actually show up today.
If we do in fact have a pair of lovers and with the discovery that we had a 'reveal' there's a pretty good chance that we don't have an alignment cop, not guaranteed to be sure but a definite possibility.
If we do in fact have a pair of lovers and with the discovery that we had a 'reveal' there's a pretty good chance that we don't have an alignment cop, not guaranteed to be sure but a definite possibility.
Ok beauties, you've convince me to get behind lynching Seath. I'm trying to keep up and maybe terra is sounding a bit scummy, but the arguments against Seath are pretty convincing. Hoping we don't kill another of our own here, being down four on the third day would be a rough start but not impossible to come back from.
Vote: Seath
Vote: Seath
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
What, at any point in time, makes you think 'bussing' other people is a good idea for town? We wouldn't and won't bus anyone because that's not how this game works. You're working to find scum. You're thinking backwards the only ones to gain from 'bussing' are scum becausw they are't working to find scum, they're trying to survive until they can force an end game state.
I can not believe you are seriously using "they didn't bus X" as a #scumtell!
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
And for the record, this is the actual story, why only AbsolutBro can see it is beyond me.
Oh I know, maybe he's our next scum partner that I accidentally outed by pointing this out, oh noes!11!
/s
I'll have you know I've made it past day 1 plenty of times.
Day 2 tho...
Now that we've pretty much settled on Seath as our main lynch candidate, we should probably diversify a bit on terms of discussion. If it wasn't for Seath, who would you be suspicious of? We can't make the whole day Seath-centric because then if for some reason Seath's flip yields less information than we expected that may make the day less useful in retrospective.
If Seath flips town or neutral, then this discussion may be in favor of scum and they may be just letting it happen. I agree with Terra's reasoning that the early days isn't the time for scum to be making bold plays; they'll be laying low letting town follow false leads and generally itself. I also personally doubt that scum would vote for its teammates at this stage of the game, no one wants to risk a potential swing in votes when the "trend" is already favoring them just to gain some town points. Too risky. Keep in mind the simplest explanation is often the likeliest one.
I'd like to look into day 1 posts from people who haven't posted yet today. Will do that once I have the time, busy work day today.
Enker was my pick day 1 and he'd still be my pick for being the first to bandwagon two votes.
Terrabyte was next on my list, but I honestly find that there's enough of a compelling argument thus far to leave him alone. The players hiding on the outer edges of our discussion are the most suspicious to me. Mazre, GreatCharleston, AbsolutBro, etc. Speaking of Mazre, I honestly forgot he was playing.
Have to re-read the thread and look for some hint why Flatearthpandas was the target during night 1. My guess is that he was picked random.
The "Lovers" would have been an obvious target. So attacking them would involve high risk, as was already mentioned. I wouldn't have touched them with a ten-foot pole during night 1.
Don't see a reason not to believe them at the moment. They may be neutral. But doubt they are Mafia. Would be an incredible bold move to pull off though.
I still think Seath bread-crumbing is highly suspicious. But he also looks like an easy target. And easy targets tend to turn out Town. So I want to give them some time to explain themselves before I vote against them. Day is still young.
The "Lovers" would have been an obvious target. So attacking them would involve high risk, as was already mentioned. I wouldn't have touched them with a ten-foot pole during night 1.
Don't see a reason not to believe them at the moment. They may be neutral. But doubt they are Mafia. Would be an incredible bold move to pull off though.
I still think Seath bread-crumbing is highly suspicious. But he also looks like an easy target. And easy targets tend to turn out Town. So I want to give them some time to explain themselves before I vote against them. Day is still young.
Sorry I missed the implications of this. I've never seen Enchanted...didn't know who Giselle was.
To be clear...Seath soft-claimed Giselle, and you were countering that claim with this post?
Yeah. I wouldn't look into panda's read lists too heavily. In fact, I might be tempted to say there might be scum in his town list. I feel like scum were just aiming for an easy, suspicion-less target that might hold a power role.
Royal_Flush
Member
I don't know what Seath is doing, but do you really think Scum doesn't have fake claims afte rthat desaster that Harry Potter was? I fully believe Ultron that he's Giselle, but unless Seath is some kind of Minion, I don't see how Scum would make that play. He could also be Neutral.
If you insist of bolding the vote, please put the bold datgs outside the highlight tags, because right now your vote is counted as a vote for "Seath</b>".
What changed to yesterday? Why did you think "No Lynch" was better than Seath and why do you now think Seath is better than "No Lynch". There is literally no new information about Seath since yesterday.
My first post this phase obviously showed I got it, but I wanted you to explicitly confirm it? What on earth do you gain by never stating "We killed flatearthpanda" and instead potentially confusing some players by just hinting to it. I'll admit the hints were pretty on the nose, and I think every single player in here should have seen it, but I still don't see the motivation behind it at all.
Are you two even reading the thread? I take my last statement back. Maybe we should post what actually happened in italic, bold, underlined and highlighted at the same time.
Oh, and while we"re at it, let me quote that Zatoth post again in it's entirety:
You do realize you voted for the "easy target" yesterday and said you'd keep your vote there. If you thought Seath was Scum yesterday, why don't you think he's Scum now? Why are you only expecting an explanation from him today and not yesterday where you just voted for him?
I also want to point out that Zatoth again is just retelling events and parroting other players after he said literally nothing of substance yesterday. I think he's Scum.
The whole calmness of yesterday (apart from Terra who at this point is an almost confirmed Townie) makes me think neither of the two lynch candidate was Scum (known to the main team). We really should start scumhunting and stop picking on the easy targets.
AbsolutBro
Member
On mobile and my multi-quote fell apart so bear with me:
@Bussing: The term is literally meant for Scum "throwing one of their own under the bus". The Town term is usually Turboing. The only time it is worth it to turbo as town is when you have a confirmed scum.
@Panda: If you want to know why he died, ask Terrabyte or Septimus. They have literally claimed responsibility for the kill. Better yet, I can tell you why: "They thought he was scum"
@Seath: Every game has that "what if it is a scum gambit!?!" moment, and almost always the case is that it is NOT a gambit, because gambits are generally scum suicide. That is pretty much antithetical to the way scum win. If you have to ask "what if it is a gambit?" there is a good chance that it is not. That said, sometimes gambits work (see: Czartim completely fooling me in Danganronpa) Even in that case though, Czar had an override trick up his sleeve, so there was at least a reason: his gambit basically used two day phase kills up (one on a town even!). So I am inclined to believe that Seath is town for now; his antics havent actually caused us any harm except "what is Seath doing?". And having Ultron out his character name, but that doesnt really give anything else.
@Character names: I am not sure how much stock we should put in them. We have already seen that some of them arent exactly among the famous princesses (or even princesses at all in Alice's case). We could try a "name your princess" gambit to look for dupes, but frankly its a terrible plan as Im sure scum either have the names of unused princesses or just have to name any main Disney female character. Could be an interesting hail mary / desperation move though. (We should absolutely not do this)
Apologies for the slow posting today. I work from home again tomorrow and Thursday, so I should be more active.
@Bussing: The term is literally meant for Scum "throwing one of their own under the bus". The Town term is usually Turboing. The only time it is worth it to turbo as town is when you have a confirmed scum.
@Panda: If you want to know why he died, ask Terrabyte or Septimus. They have literally claimed responsibility for the kill. Better yet, I can tell you why: "They thought he was scum"
@Seath: Every game has that "what if it is a scum gambit!?!" moment, and almost always the case is that it is NOT a gambit, because gambits are generally scum suicide. That is pretty much antithetical to the way scum win. If you have to ask "what if it is a gambit?" there is a good chance that it is not. That said, sometimes gambits work (see: Czartim completely fooling me in Danganronpa) Even in that case though, Czar had an override trick up his sleeve, so there was at least a reason: his gambit basically used two day phase kills up (one on a town even!). So I am inclined to believe that Seath is town for now; his antics havent actually caused us any harm except "what is Seath doing?". And having Ultron out his character name, but that doesnt really give anything else.
@Character names: I am not sure how much stock we should put in them. We have already seen that some of them arent exactly among the famous princesses (or even princesses at all in Alice's case). We could try a "name your princess" gambit to look for dupes, but frankly its a terrible plan as Im sure scum either have the names of unused princesses or just have to name any main Disney female character. Could be an interesting hail mary / desperation move though. (We should absolutely not do this)
Apologies for the slow posting today. I work from home again tomorrow and Thursday, so I should be more active.
weemadarthur
Member
Terrabyte confirms killing Panda (I think). Zatoth posts that Panda was the mafia target.
vote: zatoth
AbsolutBro
Member
Zatoh is hardly the only person who was confused by that, why jump on him?
Lone_Prodigy
Member
VOTE: gryvan
Responded when I mentioned him and I don't really buy his reasoning. GC was/is a fairly easy target for suspicion, and I doubt at this point in the game that scum would lay very very low.
Responded when I mentioned him and I don't really buy his reasoning. GC was/is a fairly easy target for suspicion, and I doubt at this point in the game that scum would lay very very low.
weemadarthur
Member
His phrasing is so absolute that it makes me think he knows more than the rest of us. Plus I found him suspicious from the beginning and I don't think he's contributed anything of value.
Thanks for correcting my terminology. I won't say bussing for town. But I thought turbo meant vote fast to end the day early?
Terrabyte, I never suggested deflecting to another player would be Good for Town. I only suggested it was the Lesser of Two Evils play, and much better for Town than claiming a power role when there was another option.
Personally, I'd get off of GreatCharleston if he actually responded for once...like literally just one response...but if he disappears yet again after that one response...I'm sorry but useless gonna be useless and should just get lynched right off the bat...
Thats why I advocated him to be lynched first due to inactivity on day 1 but if we are gonna play like that and just let him sit there for the next few day phases, be my guest...
I do have some other suspicious people but I want GreatCharleston to be resolved first before I get ahead of myself
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
I guess we'll just agree to disagree then.
AbsolutBro
Member
Re: Scum kill
It is possible that Scum also targetted FEP. If that were the case, I am not entirely sure whose command would resolve first but it is sort of irrelevant either way.
If Scum did not target FEP, then naturally some sort of PR must have intervened. Could be a switcher who swapped the actual target with FEP, a Doctor who saved them, a Blocker who blocked the killer's command, or maybe their target has somesort of NK immunity. I suppose it is also possible the target was recruited instead of killed. We really have no way of knowing until a PR speaks up, which naturally NONE OF THEM SHOULD DO YET. Unless Scum wants to tell us who they targetted. If one of them wants to speak up, that's totally cool too.
It is possible that Scum also targetted FEP. If that were the case, I am not entirely sure whose command would resolve first but it is sort of irrelevant either way.
If Scum did not target FEP, then naturally some sort of PR must have intervened. Could be a switcher who swapped the actual target with FEP, a Doctor who saved them, a Blocker who blocked the killer's command, or maybe their target has somesort of NK immunity. I suppose it is also possible the target was recruited instead of killed. We really have no way of knowing until a PR speaks up, which naturally NONE OF THEM SHOULD DO YET. Unless Scum wants to tell us who they targetted. If one of them wants to speak up, that's totally cool too.
I assume you are talking about Terrabyte claiming responsibility for Pandas death? Sorry for not getting all his hints. But why not just tell us that he did it.
I did not really have another target when I voted for Seath. The "big" discussion started in the last few hours. That's when most of the votes happened. I did not have time to follow the thread during that time. I even said so.
StackpoleH
Member
I am on mobile, will post more tonight but wanted to quickly chime in on a few things. I am not behind a lynch on Seath. He's behaved strangely and unproductively, but not in a way that makes me think he's mafia.
As for terrabyte and his partner (can't look up spelling) I would really like them to explain why they chose flat earth pandas. They've basically claimed responsibility but they haven't justified their choices. Despite multiple requests.
vote: Terrabyte
Took me a while to type this, sorry if out of date
As for terrabyte and his partner (can't look up spelling) I would really like them to explain why they chose flat earth pandas. They've basically claimed responsibility but they haven't justified their choices. Despite multiple requests.
vote: Terrabyte
Took me a while to type this, sorry if out of date
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
I didn't want to die without using my ability, I flip flopped between him and Royal_Flush until the last moment. I chose flatearthpandas because his vote was left on Charleston, where it felt wasted.
Septimus Prime
Member
Yeah, we figured we would be night killed, so we thought we'd at least take out a scum player on the way out. Turned out that player was town, though.
weemadarthur
Member
Moderator: it's now the 2nd real life day since GCharleston said he'd be back from vacation. Have there been hints of him dropping out?
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
He has been prodded. Awaiting reply. Will keep you all posted.
Unmasked Ferret
Member
What led you to suspect Pandas and Flush?
weemadarthur
Member
Yes, we clearly have a different play style philosophy. But if you're aligned with Town, we're on the same team. I am claiming Town alignment. I would be more than happy to hunt scum with you.
I want to hear everyone's reads on who may be mafia/town/neutral. I was going to call out low contribution users by name, but the list came close to approaching "everybody", so let's just go with that.
Ynnny, panda is not currently struck out in the OP. Or my screen is not refreshing properly.