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Best CRT TV for old school systems...?

So I managed to get this huge son of a bitch home(230lbs), my god, what a heavy fucker.

It's a Sony KV-36FV310 - Does any have any settings that recommend using with it, or their similar Trintron to get the best picture out of it with their SNES.

I have noticed that the white box when in the menu for FF2(4) is kind of out the screen a bit, you can see on pictures, not sure how to fix that.

I will be going SCART to Component in a couple weeks, when my box arrives for it.

sKpIZdiZ.jpg
Seems like it does need some geometry adjustments ;)

As for how to fix it, that's a digital chassis so you have to go to service menu, get the service manual and it should be pretty doable, doesn't seem very bad.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Seems like it does need some geometry adjustments ;)

As for how to fix it, that's a digital chassis so you have to go to service menu, get the service manual and it should be pretty doable, doesn't seem very bad.

Hmmm, that sounds a bit scary to do.

Anyone here ever gone into the service menu and adjusted the picture before?
 
Is there such a thing as a 1080p CRT?
No TV, but there is the Sony FW900 which is a 24" 16:10 CRT monitor that can pull 2304x1440. It's on my list of shit I want to own.

It's kinda gorgeous.
Hmmm, that sounds a bit scary to do.

Anyone here ever gone into the service menu and adjusted the picture before?
Plenty, I've made someone here on GAF go through that last week.

It's not as scary as it sounds.

EDIT: Here you go, service manual, download it. ;)
 
You're awesome, thanks dude.

From here I can adjust the picture, etc?
Yup.

Instructions for that in that manyal are located in FRONT COVER > SECTION 4: CIRCUIT ADJUSTMENT > 4-1. Setting the Service Adjustment Mode

And the list of parameters you can alter is on 4-4 Service Data Lists.

I recommend printing those few pages and if any setting is not equal to "Common Init Data" (which is the factory setting) test it with the value it's written there while writing down how it was. If it's fine as "init" leave it like that, if not it means a correct adjustment has been done before (means someone went on service menu before, probably a technician), and of course if the current value and init are not good enough by all means tweak it. Judging by the look of it I'm guessing no one ever did, because image looks good it's just the geometry that's off.

I'm saying print it because taking notes usually helps me quite a bit while tweaking but you can also alter values by heart and just see what each one does. I don't advise touching anything that says voltage though, it should be safe because it can be tweaked up to a point, but it can do things like accelerate panel aging and the like, my rule is always leave that one on init no matter what (unless it doesn't work or looks broken with default settings).

The following:

H SIZE
H POSITION
AFC BOW
AFC ANGLE
TRAPEZIUM
H. TRAPEZOID
V SIZE
V POSITION

Should be your biggest points of interest.

I'd start with trapezium because it seems like it's the 4:3 image area is "rotated" or something, I believe that setting addresses that directly. The rest is just geometry touches, doesn't seem to have noticeable warping or bowing.

I'd also use the grid present on the 240p test suite:

Grid.png


-> http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

It's the best image to have on the screen while calibrating geometry.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Yup.

Instructions for that in that manyal are located in FRONT COVER > SECTION 4: CIRCUIT ADJUSTMENT > 4-1. Setting the Service Adjustment Mode

And the list of parameters you can alter is on 4-4 Service Data Lists.

I recommend printing those few pages and if any setting is not equal to "Common Init Data" (which is the factory setting) test it with the value it's written there while writing down how it was. If it's fine as "init" leave it like that, if not it means a correct adjustment has been done before (means someone went on service menu before, probably a technician), and of course if the current value and init are not good enough by all means tweak it. Judging by the look of it I'm guessing no one ever did, because image looks good it's just the geometry that's off.

I'm saying print it because taking notes usually helps me quite a bit while tweaking but you can also alter values by heart and just see what each one does. I don't advise touching anything that says voltage though, it should be safe because it can be tweaked up to a point, but it can do things like accelerate panel aging and the like, my rule is always leave that one on init no matter what (unless it doesn't work or looks broken with default settings).

The following:

H SIZE
H POSITION
AFC BOW
AFC ANGLE
TRAPEZIUM
H. TRAPEZOID
V SIZE
V POSITION

Should be your biggest points of interest.

I'd start with trapezium because it seems like it's the 4:3 image area is "rotated" or something, I believe that setting addresses that directly. The rest is just geometry touches, doesn't seem to have noticeable warping or bowing.

I'd also use the grid present on the 240p test suite:

Grid.png


-> http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

It's the best image to have on the screen while calibrating geometry.

They certainly made it intentionally hard to understand so that there could be an industry to fix these, holy moly. I'm afraid I'm going to unwillingly initiate the "self destruct" mode fumbling around with these numbers and values..
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Okay, I'm getting the hang of this, seem like the issue is a bit of a "bow" at the top, I found how to fix a horizontal bow but not a vertical bow yet.
 
I forgot to mention TILT ROTATION (TROT). Seems to be more on the money than the TRAPEZIUM option I suggested to start with (whom I thought could perhaps apply rotation, because image seemed a little rotated)... but I first glanced through it and missed it. Sorry.

BOW is listed on the manual as VBOW, hence it's considered a vertical adjustment. No HBOW, but perhaps it's H Trapezoid (HTRP)?

I'm grasping, but the opposite to BOW has to start with H and couldn't be far off.


If you feel like you've hit a dead end, set the values to init and start over, I've done that before.


Good thing one doesn't need to do this every day (or every year) because it's just not practical but do take your time to get it right ;)
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
It seems so far that it may be more a problem with the picture its self. It seems that when ever something crosses the top part of the screen it gets mildly bigger than when it's not in the top centre. Hard to explain, it's like a wavy action.
 
It seems so far that it may be more a problem with the picture its self. It seems that when ever something crosses the top part of the screen it gets mildly bigger than when it's not in the top centre. Hard to explain, it's like a wavy action.
I know what you mean, I'm not seeing how to fix it easily other than through a lot of trial and error and hoping for the best though. Can't pinpoint a setting that specifically takes care of it.

Perhaps Linearity? Broaden the options a little you never know.

Flat CRT's are usually deemed harder to get geometry to 100% perfect due to focusing off center, I'm starting to suspect it's probably that (and I don't have a lot of experience with flat CRT's) but I do know Sony was aware of it and fine tuning should keep it in check.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
I know what you mean, I'm not seeing how to fix it easily other than through a lot of trial and error and hoping for the best though. Can't pinpoint a setting that specifically takes care of it.

Hmm, it's probably more an issue with age and use rather than a setting. Sigh.
 
Hmm, it's probably more an issue with age and use rather than a setting. Sigh.
These settings are there also to cope with aging, geometry changes throughout the life of the device and that's why regulation is needed, always was, which is why before there were menu's there were trim pots on the chassis. I'm not saying it could be fixed completely (sadly, looked simpler than it's turning out to be and we're not technicians :p) but image looked pretty fine outside of that.

Tell me, when do you consider the brightness setting on it to be optimal? is it near half the maximum or well over half?

Sony CRT's, while new are usable with very low brighness settings, while a screen with brightness set to very high just to be usable should have a lot of hours on it.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
These settings are there also to cope with aging, geometry changes throughout the life of the device and that's why regulation is needed, always was, which is why before there were menu's there were trim pots on the chassis. I'm not saying it could be fixed completely (sadly, looked simpler than it's turning out to be and we're not technicians :p) but image looked pretty fine outside of that.

Tell me, when do you consider the brightness setting on it to be optimal? is it near half the maximum or well over half?

Sony CRT's, while new are usable with very low brighness settings, while a screen with brightness set to very high just to be usable should have a lot of hours on it.

I have the picture(contrast I think)about 3/4 the way up and the brightness at half or so. I could probably go lower really.
 
The TV is certainly far from half life then, which is good when it comes to aging. (also didn't appear to be the case on the photo)

Tube isn't failing so geometry should be fixable (?) when tubes are old they start to be really strained and that's bad news, as even if you fix it it could go bad fast, they start to get really "wavy" basically.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
The TV is certainly far from half life then, which is good when it comes to aging. (also didn't appear to be the case on the photo)

Tube isn't failing so geometry should be fixable (?) when tubes are old they start to be really strained and that's bad news, as even if you fix it it could go bad fast, they start to get really "wavy" basically.

Hmm, I have noticed some wavy-ness, when walking around in FF2, fucking CRT's. meh, whatever, I didn't pay much for it and looks better than on my Samsung LED.

I've read that Sony Trinitrons have always had some "bowing" issues, etc. So it seems like it's just part of the brand.
 
No TV, but there is the Sony FW900 which is a 24" 16:10 CRT monitor that can pull 2304x1440. It's on my list of shit I want to own.

It's kinda gorgeous.Plenty, I've made someone here on GAF go through that last week.

It's not as scary as it sounds.

EDIT: Here you go, service manual, download it. ;)


My set has some small warping going on, and slightly offset screen (though it seems dependent on which system is turned on).

It's a Sony KV-27FS120

Is this what I want to be looking at?
http://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-27fs120,29fa310,29fs120_ch_ba-6.pdf/download.html

Man. You'd think they could just include picture resetting controls on the outside of the television..
 

Zing

Banned
I'm sure I've mentioned this several times in the thread, but if it is horizontal bowing (going from left to right), it is impossible to fix with the service menu on the Sony SDTVs. However, vertical geometry can be fixed with the relevant settings (VBOW). If the warping is just on the corners, then the UPIN, LPIN, and PAMP settings are what you need.

There is SCOR and VLIN to correct linearity (if the is warping in middle of screen) although again, only vertical. Use this if you find text boxes have stretched sections or just a weird funhouse mirror look.

Otherwise, all you need are VSIZ, HSIZ, VPOS, HPOS to align the image and minimize overscan. You can get to 5% along each edge if you are lucky. Aim for at least 10% (need a crosshatch or overscan pattern for this). However, it is a trade-off, as less overscan means more obvious edge geometry errors.

I used to use Avia DVD and such, but now I just eyeball it, using a NES and PSone. PSone games use more of the top and bottom, so if you play it, you need to really work on overscan.
 
^ Thank you for stepping in!

To be honest I was frustrated, because here in Europe we mostly avoid digital chassis (because taking FE1 and FE2 chassis aside they go apeshit insane fast on 100 Hz and silly post process called Digital Plus who on top of the destroyed 240p source smudges it) hence... I don't have one and have little actual experience with [them] Sony Digital Chassis.

A few instances here looked like they had to be fixable (I mean it didn't even look that bad) but I couldn't put my finger on them other than "her's the manual, keep at it... I'd try this, but I didn't mess with one of those before".

That sounds really useful, I hope it helps someone ;)
My set has some small warping going on, and slightly offset screen (though it seems dependent on which system is turned on).

It's a Sony KV-27FS120

Is this what I want to be looking at?
http://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-27fs120,29fa310,29fs120_ch_ba-6.pdf/download.html

Man. You'd think they could just include picture resetting controls on the outside of the television..
You're correct :)

Good luck.
 
HELLO PEOPLE I'VE PINNED AGAINST SERVICE MENUS!

Yeah. So I found this while reading one right now: (how geeky is that?)

MUaRxAU.png


I think it helps.

(Cmerrill and Polioliolio ... I hope it helps :D Tell me if it did later!)

It seems so far that it may be more a problem with the picture its self. It seems that when ever something crosses the top part of the screen it gets mildly bigger than when it's not in the top centre. Hard to explain, it's like a wavy action.
Toggle VLIN (V Linearity) or SCOR (S Correction)!

I feel like I found the rosetta stone or something. (Zing had said it before, but now I... WE have a Diagram! Muahahaha!)
 

Zing

Banned
Yes, VLIN and SCOR are the biggest pains to get correct. You have to go between both settings on a crosshatch trying to get the boxes all the same size, using a ruler on your screen!
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
HELLO PEOPLE I'VE PINNED AGAINST SERVICE MENUS!

Yeah. So I found this while reading one right now: (how geeky is that?)

MUaRxAU.png


I think it helps.

(Cmerrill and Polioliolio ... I hope it helps :D Tell me if it did later!)

Toggle VLIN (V Linearity) or SCOR (S Correction)!

I feel like I found the rosetta stone or something. (Zing had said it before, but now I... WE have a Diagram! Muahahaha!)

Great find! I'll have to use that tomorrow.
 

Zing

Banned
It honestly doesn't matter. Just find a general list of Trinitron menu items and go from there. Every Sony TV uses the same commands to get into and control the service menu, and they all use a subset of the menu items. A rule of thumb is to only change settings in the DEF section, as those are settings which won't break anything and can be reset to defaults.

Also, if you simply don't write the settings to memory, they only stick until the power has been unplugged for a minute. So you can tinker and go back to old settings easily. Once you are familiar with the settings and get them how you wish, write to memory and they will be permanent.

These are all done via remote. Do not open the set. Very risky.
 
It honestly doesn't matter. Just find a general list of Trinitron menu items and go from there. Every Sony TV uses the same commands to get into and control the service menu, and they all use a subset of the menu items. A rule of thumb is to only change settings in the DEF section, as those are settings which won't break anything and can be reset to defaults.

Also, if you simply don't write the settings to memory, they only stick until the power has been unplugged for a minute. So you can tinker and go back to old settings easily. Once you are familiar with the settings and get them how you wish, write to memory and they will be permanent.

These are all done via remote. Do not open the set. Very risky.

Excellent. Thanks a lot!
 
I wish there was a way to turn off the filter on my XBR :( Everything looks so nice, but NES and SNES games have that weird issue where you see dot crawl every few frames, and scanlines are really mushed together..
 

Zing

Banned
They do have technical limitations depending on the hardware. The practical limiting factor is the internal signal source. On SD sets it is just a standard NTSC signal. On HD or "hiscan" sets, all incoming signals are converted to an interlaced 1080 line signal, and then drawn to the screen.

I know of no "720" sets. Back then HD was 1080i, and that is what was broadcast over the air.
 
Okay, I took the wii homebrew 240p test software to the Wega.

I went in hoping to fix the horizontal bowing near the mid bottom part of the screen (I see it's been commented on that it can't be fixed... aaah... oh well, not too bad), and I ended up changing a whole lot of everything else. The warping on the corners is easier to handle if you just push it slightly out of range vertically. Helped me deal with most of the left over warping anyway, and the Super Nintendo seems to want it that way.

The famicom has its own agenda, so I had to compromise to settle between them. I don't mind some pixels slightly out of view if I'm getting a more stable looking image.


In testing the image adjustments, I also discovered that Super Mario Allstars (Japanese version) somehow knows I'm playing it on a plastic tab modded SNES instead of the Super Famicom. I got a dumb criminal warning message.. This is annoying, because I did the SNES mod just so I could put the Super Fami away.. bahh.


edit:

 
You guys are brave to fuck with the geometry in these monitors. I make small adjustments, like the positioning of the picture (my PVM image was a bit too much to the left side of the screen, leaving a nice thin black strip along the right side), but I've learned the hard way that trying to get "perfect" linearity from CRTs is an exercise in frustration. One monitor I remember being much worse off after I tried for a long time to get it "just right." It's also ultimately pointless, as you'll never get it perfect; that's just the nature of these types of screens. I've learned to accept it as being a defining characteristic of these kinds of screens, and really kind of part of their charm.
 
You guys are brave to fuck with the geometry in these monitors. I make small adjustments, like the positioning of the picture (my PVM image was a bit too much to the left side of the screen, leaving a nice thin black strip along the right side), but I've learned the hard way that trying to get "perfect" linearity from CRTs is an exercise in frustration. One monitor I remember being much worse off after I tried for a long time to get it "just right." It's also ultimately pointless, as you'll never get it perfect; that's just the nature of these types of screens. I've learned to accept it as being a defining characteristic of these kinds of screens, and really kind of part of their charm.
I don't think so, thing with geometry is that you can't do it aimlessly... you have to have reference values because you might have to fall back on them

With analog chassis with trim pots one usually uses a sharpie, you just do it from the center and to the edge outside of the part that rotates, now... if anything doesn't go right you can put it pretty much like it was before because you have reference for the "default" factory settings, which is different than knowing it wasn't turned all the way to either side so it was "something in the middle".

With digital chassis you have the "predef" values on the manual (and if it's not using those you can and should just annotate which are being used), so that helps if something goes wrong with the geometry and you want to start over you just have to put everything like the manual says it came. Instead of loosing an hour looking for said settings by eye.

I like to see it as a puzzle, you have to devise a strategy to tackle it, but if you have that, it'll turn things so much easier. With a digital chassis and proper documentation you don't need it (as much).

I haven't messed with TV's with digital chassis much though.
 

Mzo

Member
In testing the image adjustments, I also discovered that Super Mario Allstars (Japanese version) somehow knows I'm playing it on a plastic tab modded SNES instead of the Super Famicom. I got a dumb criminal warning message.. This is annoying, because I did the SNES mod just so I could put the Super Fami away.. bahh.

That's really weird. The game definitely has piracy protection, but I've never heard of region protection on a sufami game. What exactly is the message that comes up?
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Does anyone here use a Sony Trinitron Flat Screen CRT that doesn't have any bowing issues?
 
In testing the image adjustments, I also discovered that Super Mario Allstars (Japanese version) somehow knows I'm playing it on a plastic tab modded SNES instead of the Super Famicom. I got a dumb criminal warning message.. This is annoying, because I did the SNES mod just so I could put the Super Fami away.. bahh.

Are you using a PAL SNES? Some electrical modding is needed to get rid of the lockouts if you're crossing into PAL regions. I wasn't aware of any regioning issues between NTSC regions.

Though, reading up, the game does actually have copy protection routines besides the lockout chip described here.
 

Zing

Banned
Does anyone here use a Sony Trinitron Flat Screen CRT that doesn't have any bowing issues?
I've personally had four over the past few years that I used and calibrated. All had some sort of horizontal bowing at the top or bottom.

Also, my original Trinitron (vertically flat) had a bit along the top. The red push on that thing was outrageous.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
So is there a better CRT tv than these "Trinitrons" for retro gaming with component in? I've already gone through a few of them and they ALL have geometry issues that can't be resolved through the service menu, and it's fucking annoying at this point.

If I can't find something, I guess Ill have to go back to SNES into a HDTV.
 
So is there a better CRT tv than these "Trinitrons" for retro gaming with component in? I've already gone through a few of them and they ALL have geometry issues that can't be resolved through the service menu, and it's fucking annoying at this point.

If I can't find something, I guess Ill have to go back to SNES into a HDTV.

If you really want to get in deep, get a Sony PVM or BVM. Just beware, once you go in that far there is no turning back...
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
If you really want to get in deep, get a Sony PVM or BVM. Just beware, once you go in that far there is no turning back...

My problem with those though, is that they don't really come any bigger than 20"inches.

I'm pretty frustrated with retro gaming at this point.
 

Zing

Banned
All CRT will have some geometry problems, especially if you are over 19-21". They have to use physical magnets to keep things in line when the size is so large, and it is difficult to get perfect.

If you are gaming in the truly retro style, you are sitting on the floor 3-5 feet away anyway, so you don't need a big screen. :)
 
All CRT will have some geometry problems, especially if you are over 19-21". They have to use physical magnets to keep things in line when the size is so large, and it is difficult to get perfect.

If you are gaming in the truly retro style, you are sitting on the floor 3-5 feet away anyway, so you don't need a big screen. :)

This is also why that even though there are bigger then 20" PVMs, they are not recommended. 20" seems to be the sweet spot in size.
Still on the lookout for an xm29 though...

Also screw sitting on the floor...my legs fall asleep really fast doing that.
 

KyleCross

Member
I notice that my PS2 and Wii games don't look super hot on my 46 inch LED Samsung through even component cables. Instead of a CRT do you think quality would improve with a smaller HDTV?
 
I notice that my PS2 and Wii games don't look super hot on my 46 inch LED Samsung through even component cables. Instead of a CRT do you think quality would improve with a smaller HDTV?

Not so hot how? Don't know if you will have better results with a smaller screen unless the problem you are having is that the lower resolutions just look bad when made really big, what with making the jaggies more noticeable. It's good that you aren't thinking CRT since its not the best for either system. There is a small number of games that run on 240p on ps2, but the vast majority go for 480i+.
 

Randomizer

Member
Not so hot how? Don't know if you will have better results with a smaller screen unless the problem you are having is that the lower resolutions just look bad when made really big, what with making the jaggies more noticeable. It's good that you aren't thinking CRT since its not the best for either system. There is a small number of games that run on 240p on ps2, but the vast majority go for 480i+.
A CRT capable of 480p would actually be the best option. And all NTSC CRT's are 480i with PAL being 576i, although most later PAL CRTs support 480i@60hz. Infact 240p just fills the 480i screen with every other line being left blank (scanlines).
 
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