I understand the natural differences between CRT and LCD and that CRT displays don't have a "native" resolution, and that there shouldn't be a reason for a CRT display to upscale, but this doesn't change the fact that the CRT HDTVs I've tried lag and don't even flinch when you display a high definition television OSD on top of a low-resolution SNES image (which would suggest upscaling and de-interlacing). I couldn't tell you why, but I would put down money that they were doing additional processing on the image.
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Best CRT TV for old school systems...?
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
- Start date
I understand the natural differences between CRT and LCD and that CRT displays don't have a "native" resolution, and that there shouldn't be a reason for a CRT display to upscale, but this doesn't change the fact that the CRT HDTVs I've tried lag and don't even flinch when you display a high definition television OSD on top of a low-resolution SNES image (which would suggest upscaling and de-interlacing). I couldn't tell you why, but I would put down money that they were doing additional processing on the image.
lostinblue
Banned
I won't argue they have some kind of post processing going on if they lag (and if you say so), I'm pretty sure a crappy Samsung CRT (non-HD) I owned sharpened the image as a means to contain the fact it's "natural" image wasn't focused at all. Flat Sammy tubes kinda sucked balls (LG's too).
But backtracking, I was saying they certainly don't upscale as that would be futile (in which we agree, not in the certainly but that it's techically supposed to be... futile); I stand by that (which sets are we talking about?) but they might be throwing sharpen into the void just the same. I've seen it, yes.
The by OCD I assume we're talking about on-screen menu or Picture in Picture?
You might very well be right if you throw PIP at it and it doesn't even flicker as to change resolution, but it's still... weird.
The set I've had the most experience with (parents own it) is a Toshiba from 2004, I'm not sure of the exact model. And just the on-screen menu (which was very crisp), never tried picture-in-picture. edit: oh, I said "OCD" and meant "OSD", lol.
The whole idea of CRTs not having any kind of native resolution is highly misunderstood.
At best, an aperture grille CRT can avoid having a native resolution on a single axis, pretty much always the vertical axis. For a given horizontal line, there's always going to be a locked number of 3-phosphor R/G/B groups (pixels).
Not that it matters; Composite, S-Video, and Component video signals aren't sent with a "native" discrete resolution along the horizontal axis anyway; they're separated into discrete horizontal lines, but each line is just an analog signal.
HDMI and VGA and such do have a pixel clock signal, and so they do have native horizontal resolutions. But it's not really common for HD CRT TVs to have "typical" horizontal resolutions; usually it's crazy stuff like 1440. You'd never get native video anyway (you'd also need an extremely fine electron beam).
At best, an aperture grille CRT can avoid having a native resolution on a single axis, pretty much always the vertical axis. For a given horizontal line, there's always going to be a locked number of 3-phosphor R/G/B groups (pixels).
Not that it matters; Composite, S-Video, and Component video signals aren't sent with a "native" discrete resolution along the horizontal axis anyway; they're separated into discrete horizontal lines, but each line is just an analog signal.
HDMI and VGA and such do have a pixel clock signal, and so they do have native horizontal resolutions. But it's not really common for HD CRT TVs to have "typical" horizontal resolutions; usually it's crazy stuff like 1440. You'd never get native video anyway (you'd also need an extremely fine electron beam).
StarCreator
Member
Every HD CRT I've ever seen employs a digital scaler on its component or HDMI inputs, which almost invariably only operates on one or two resolutions. Presumably, it was cheaper to do it that way rather than actually have the CRT natively sync to every possible HD resolution. It's common to the point that I go out of my way to avoid HD CRTs.
question:
ive got an original xbox hooked up (via component) to an old toshiba crt that isnt 480p compatible. quite a few xbox games support this and higher resolutions, so i was wondering if it would be better to just hook the console up to my hdtv and play in progressive scan. however, my understanding is that the hdtv would just scale that image up to fit the 4:3 dimensions of the screen, blurring the image a bit. should i continue to game on the crt [where the image is native (?) but not progressive] or play on a blown up 480p hdtv image (where there would presumably be more lag because of that screen technology)?
ive got an original xbox hooked up (via component) to an old toshiba crt that isnt 480p compatible. quite a few xbox games support this and higher resolutions, so i was wondering if it would be better to just hook the console up to my hdtv and play in progressive scan. however, my understanding is that the hdtv would just scale that image up to fit the 4:3 dimensions of the screen, blurring the image a bit. should i continue to game on the crt [where the image is native (?) but not progressive] or play on a blown up 480p hdtv image (where there would presumably be more lag because of that screen technology)?
sixteen-bit
Member
There are a number of 720p and 1080i native OG Xbox games, so depending on what you own and play, the HDTV might be "fine".
Type_Raver
Member
I picked up a 32" Sony FD Trinitron Wega HD CRT for 110$ with matching Stand!
Tv is awesome. It has 2 component, 3 svideo/composite, RF and 1 DVI and a memory stick duo slot.
TV does 1080i, 720p, 480p/i
Old school games look awesome on this tv. I have a RGB scart to Component adapter and i have RGB scart cables for all my systems(snes,genesis,saturn,dreamcast) and have my Ps2 is hooked via component.
Not sure how many people play the Super Robot Wars games but SRW Z looks amazing on this tv because of the high resolution sprite work...
Havent tried the HD out on it yet cause i just keep my PS3 hooked up to my LCD.
Is it this model, difficult to tell exactly in the image.
http://www.hoylen.com/articles/tech/sony-kvhr36m31/Sony-SHCS-Sight-brochure-KV-HR36M31.pdf
If so, its the same as mine!
Playing Virtual console games on Wii U look great through component.
The colors and motion is what wins me all the time with CRT.
(in regards to gaming)
What TV makes the most sense depends on the game.
The impact of combing is vastly larger for 30fps games than for 60, so some 30fps games arguably wind up looking better progressive even with upscaling. But there are definitely sixth-gen 30fps games that I prefer on an SD CRT versus a progressive flat panel, for reasons of both responsiveness and aesthetics.
For 480-line 60fps games, SD CRTs usually offer a great picture on top of phenomenal responsiveness.
My Toshiba HD CRT has two modes, 1080i mode and 480p mode. I actually play modern systems in 480p since the 480p mode tends to run better and look better than 720p upscaling to 1080i.
I have a CRT monitor that supports incredibly high resolutions, but it doesn't look good if it isn't set to 1280x1024 resolution. If you put it higher, everything is way too small, and if you put it anything lower, it's incredibly blurry no matter what setting you choose. I also notice the higher the frame rate, the blurrier it gets.
The Toshiba HD CRT only lags in my experience when I use the HDMI port, and via testing a Guitar Hero game with a Wireless Xbox 360 Guitar it got up to 30ms.
With that said, I have a question of my own. What are "Lines" when people are praising the 800-900 "Lines" of the BVM?
I have a CRT monitor that supports incredibly high resolutions, but it doesn't look good if it isn't set to 1280x1024 resolution. If you put it higher, everything is way too small, and if you put it anything lower, it's incredibly blurry no matter what setting you choose. I also notice the higher the frame rate, the blurrier it gets.
The Toshiba HD CRT only lags in my experience when I use the HDMI port, and via testing a Guitar Hero game with a Wireless Xbox 360 Guitar it got up to 30ms.
With that said, I have a question of my own. What are "Lines" when people are praising the 800-900 "Lines" of the BVM?
Anyone?
"Lines" is essentially the maximum horizontal resolution. CRTs draw horizontal lines in a continuous signal with no distinct lines or pixels, but "lines" will refer to the TV's ability to resolve detail along horizontal lines. Higher bandwidth is required to draw higher horizontal detail, so cheap TVs tend to have lower horizontal "lines".
A good TV when I was a teenager would have 400-600 lines. I bought one of these TVs at that time because I mainly watched laserdiscs, which had around 425 lines of resolution in the signal.
A good TV when I was a teenager would have 400-600 lines. I bought one of these TVs at that time because I mainly watched laserdiscs, which had around 425 lines of resolution in the signal.
(Some*) analog video signals use continuous signals to describe a line, but color CRTs do have a fixed number of pixels on a horizontal line.
The only way I can think of to avoid it would be to build an aperture grille with a "sideways" phosphor mask without changing the electron gun's scan orientation. But that would apply a fixed vertical resolution, it would probably play hell on the human eye, and I've never heard of anyone doing it.
*There's always stuff like VGA which is "analog" because it uses analog colour intensity, but which has a pixel clock signal and sends lines as groups of discrete pixels.
Well, that's not strictly true either, since monochrome CRTs have no need for a grille or mask structure.
True, though it can be a contributing factor in a design (and it imposes a hard limit, not that stuff actually bumps into it in practical cases).
So which set should I scour craigslist for to build my Halo LAN Hub?
I was thinking we could pull together our OG Xboxes and hook them up through components (if applicable to the set), but it's also pretty easy to get my hands on some 360s.
Open to all opinions and ideas....
I find that the Sony WEGAs are good in this regard when you use "pro mode". The older Sony Trinitrons were very heavy on the red. That bothered me, but some obscure settings in service mode lightened it a bit. I spent a lot of time on that damn Trinitron getting the colours correct. On my newer WEGA, the default settings are fine.
Fit in the boot easy. Can't believe I hauled it up to my apt on my own though, phew.
Fox Mulder
Member
Luckily I've got a first floor apt. They're heavy, mine's like 115 pounds, but they aren't that cumbersome with the handles to hold.
I just did a quick conversion, mine was only about 70lb, but I'm tiny, lol.
The handles were good.
I'm looking at tweaking the picture now, the size is nice but it doesn't look anywhere near as good as my 14"...
lostinblue
Banned
What are you talking about?
You mean spicing up half-life tubes? or... geometry?
Geometry is mostly fine (one of my PVM's is clearly half life and it's geometry is fine) and even if it wasn't it's easy enough to calibrate. Regarding restoration of equipment nearing end of life (EoL), that's flimsy.
It's a surge of energy before going back to normal (or accelerating it even), from the methods I know of.
It's best knowing what the device was used for throughout his life to determine if it should be dwindling or not already, and I can say from experience that taking special cases aside... usually the MD variants (medical equipment) have less hours on them because they're not turned on 24/7 like video monitors often are.
They also often are step down models, with only 600 TV Lines, but that's mighty fine nonetheless.
I picked up a Sony Wega KV-24FV300. But, it has some problems. Is this fixable?
If it's too hard to tell from the picture, some horizontal lines at the top and a slight curve the picture on either side.
I'm not a TV Doctor, so here's a disclaimer that says I shall not be held responsible to anything you do that messes up your TV.
That looks like something that could be fixed in the service menu. Look up how to access the service menu for your TV, do that, write down any settings before you change them, and tinker around with stuff that looks like it might fix the issues. Service menus are deliberately tricky to navigate because they're only supposed to be accessed by professionals, and there's a lot of ways to mess up your picture even worse. So be careful with everything you do in there!
Thank you! I'll look into that and report back.
Superblatt
Member
So I picked up a 20" BVM last week with 18,000 hours on it. Appears to be in great shape, but it doesn't work right until I let it warm up for 10-20 minutes. I get interference and wavy lines all over the place. From what I've been told the capacitors need to be replaced. Is that accurate? I'm going to look into getting it fixed these these sets are the best of the best and very hard to come by.
The easy guide is to say to not touch anything that isn't in the "DEF" section of the service menu. These are all the basic settings and cannot cause any trouble if you set something incorrectly. On a set with no major issues, all you should be adjusting is the geometry; the settings like HPOS to the pincushion (PAMP, UPIN, LPIN). Maybe a dozen settings. Everything else is sensitive and should only be adjusted for specific problems.
Edit: I just read your above post with the photo. Yes that is easy to fix. Adjust the pincushion settings. You want to pull the corners out. PAMP does an overall stretching out of the corners, then use UPIN and LPIN to adjust the top and bottom corners respectively.
Stannis Baratheon
Banned
I've been trying to find a local CRT and I'm actually finding it surprisingly difficult. No one's got one. What the heck?
I found a lot on Craigslist and Goodwill, if you're in the US.
sixteen-bit
Member
I forget how dangerous CRTs can be. Transporting them is no joke.
This is working...thanks! Now I still have the overscan/underscan issue...going to look around a bit for that setting. If you know it, let me know...thanks!
EDIT: Fixed it! HPOS, HSIZ, along with VPOL, VSIZ. May tweak it some more throughout the week to make sure everything is proportionate.
indigo-cyclops
Member
My in-laws have a nice sized Trinitron WEGA that they're giving me once they get a new TV. Not sure when that will be, but I'm anxiously awaiting the day. Tho transporting it will be a bitch.
Fox Mulder
Member
people don't see any value in these anymore and no one wants them. I see flea markets with a mountain of shit tvs they'll never sell and will cost them to dispose of properly. I don't think goodwill even accepts them anymore.
I lucked into finding a 29 inch Sony pvm in a shitty store that's now out of business. I was watching Craigslist for awhile before that just for a good Trinitron.
theSlacker
Member
And I was feeling good for getting 2 okay quality bvms within the last year. Someday I'm gonna find a good quality one that's casing isn't all beat up so I can stop looking every day.
I rock it old school. My 30 year old Commodore 1701 still purrs like a kitten and IMO looks wonderful. Dug out my old NES and hooked it up for my 6 year old son.
You sick bastard. Taking pictures of hardcore retro AV pornography with a child present.
baphomet
Member
Best score was the 2 20''s manufactured in 03 with barely any use for $60 each about 30 minutes away. I actually offered $100 for 1 of them (they were asking $200 each), and when I got there they said another $20 I could have both if I carried them myself. It was a good 100 yard distance from their office to where I was parked, but totally fucking worth it.
lostinblue
Banned
^ Well, I envy you. Who cares about back pain when one scored the plural of a badass TV.
sixteen-bit
Member
Yes, with that TV, S-Video should be your baseline.
theSlacker
Member
Payed $100 for the 20" PVM I have, and it is in the best physical condition, but seems to have been used a ton and I have to max out the contrast to give the picture any life. The two BVMs I have are beat as fuck, and one of them takes like 15 minutes of being on to make the picture stop fucking up, but after that it looks fine. 66k hours on each of them so not bad, just still looking for one that doesn't have problems and looks nice.
7DollarHagane
Banned
PVM: The final retro gaming frontier?
someday maybe I'll get one.
someday maybe I'll get one.