Are there any other flat TVs that have that fixed too? I noticed those are pretty pricey.
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Best CRT TV for old school systems...?
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
- Start date
Are there any other flat TVs that have that fixed too? I noticed those are pretty pricey.
lostinblue
Banned
There's mostly only one thing that matters on CRT's, and that is TV Lines, a figure rarely fed for consumer grade TV, but something that isn't that hard to estimate based on the pixel width on the aperture grille/shadow mask.
From my own measurements I found most consumer TV's bar the top range ones check out at 250 TVL's which sucks big balls; thing is... small TV's don't go much lower than that, so it's a case of looking worse or more undefined the bigger it gets.
That's where this comes in!
think they'll ever add N64, 32x and other cartridge support?
sixteen-bit
Member
I think the N64 patents expire in 2016, so maybe?
lostinblue
Banned
Most Sony, Loewe, Thomson, Mitsubishi and Panasonic TV's are fine (Philips and Grundig top TV's too), specially if they're later models, 2001 onwards. (flat appeared around 1998), but because of what I was saying (TV lines are king) look specifically for top range models (even retro top range models could hit the magical 600 TVL number) or Fine Detail/High Resolution nomenclatures.
That will ensure that you get the definition you deserve/want out of your TV's.
There was also a very good Phillips HDTV set, for HD at least. I'm honestly not in the know in regards to these last TV's (Sony not witstanding) in regards to how they did deliver scanlines, shadow mask sometimes meaning disheveled vertical lines which I usually don't dig for retro purposes. And I don't know what these latter non-Sony TV's were using since I'm used to seeing them doing 480i and not 240p.
In the end it's a matter of taste and purpose though, but the current retro 240p scanline love going on is Aperture Grille/Trinitron thing.
Trinitron patents had expired after 2000 or so, so Mitsubishi and others were doing different branded Trinitron.
Snkfanatic
Banned
That's where this comes in!
Holy.....I need this
I recently picked up a Sony Trinitron KV-27FS120 for $20 from a coworker. I didn't even know HD CRTs existed, and there is a Sony-KV-30HS420 HD CRT near me for $40.
Anyone have experience with the HD CRTs? Should I waste my time trying to obtain this one?
(Current pic looks great, but I want moooore!)
Anyone have experience with the HD CRTs? Should I waste my time trying to obtain this one?
(Current pic looks great, but I want moooore!)
Was just playing some T2 Arcade Game using the Sega Menacer on my old CRT. Good stuff.
I haven't seen much activity in the Retron 5 thread since late December & early this month. Whats the deal with the Retron 5 now after their delay to Q1 2014? Was it delayed to early summer now?
sixteen-bit
Member
Last I heard it was an April release.
In my experience they look better than LCD, but they still upscale so they still don't look quite right and they are still laggy. I wouldn't bother.
I have a Sony Trinitron KV-34HS420 and absolutely love it. It obviously upscales real old systems, but I have a Wii (for Wii, GC, and virtual console stuff), Xbox, and PS2 hooked up and love that if a game supports progressive scan (read: all Wii titles I believe) it actually handles it well, that the handful of 720p/1080i Xbox games look stunning on it, and it's up-scaling is quite well done.
The system upscales non-HD to 480p, not 720 or 1080 so there is a lot less line doubling than you'd get with current HDTVs. Personally I think it's the optimal way to play the PS2/GC/Xbox/Dreamcast generation and very close to optimal for earlier systems.
If you want something that can handle progressive scan and occasional 720p work $40 is a pretty nice price.
lostinblue
Banned
Not "true".
CRT's don't work like modern "pixel mapped" screens, they're a electron gun blasting RGB onto a shadow mask. Hence why you certainly had CRT PC monitors and they could support multiple resolutions, which one was native? real answer is all of them, also notice the higher resolution one was often unreadable and tiring; which means the panel had extinguished it's capability to solve detail at that setting.
All this to say, "upscaling", the process of taking a 640x480 image, processing it via internal chips and creating a higher resolution fucked up composite of it... Didn't take place on most HD-CRT-TV's.
There was simply no need for it, technology wise.
Thing is, said games had jaggies and big pixels, it's only normal that a panel that could resolve so much detail could evidence that fact, but it's not "upscaling", it didn't involve extra processing or results ranging from softened detail or badly de-interlaced 240p, heck, it shouldn't deinterlace 480i either (most if not all HDTV's internally do so).
They're certainly not supposed to [lag].
lostinblue
Banned
I don't know specifics but probably a mix of 100/120 Hz (that could screw 30 Hz transparencies on 60 Hz signals), 16:9 and lots of extra TV lines? If it's non-Sony, possibly the disheveled nature of some shadow masks (I'll simplify and not distinguish between shadow mask and aperture grille in this post).
The high definition shadow mask might be a culprit too, I guess; scanlines on normal SD-CRT-TV's are caused by the fact that 240p only refreshes the same 240 lines and not doing 240 odd or even per frame; hence and because those TV's had no post processing whatsoever you ended up with those black lines, for each line output there was a blanked line.
If you have a 1280x720 HD-CRT-TV then it' 240x3=720. You either nuke the blanked line and blast the same line 3 times to screen or you double the 240p lines and end up with smaller scanlines or the contrary, boost the 240p signal to two lines leaving only one blank.
It's probably doing the middle one, as that's the way BVM's do it, the more high definition they are the bigger and more pronounced the scanlines get. "This" isn't that noticeable in operation though, because the light coming through bleeds out. This is how 240p appears on HD-CRT Sony flat 16:9 BVM's. (AFAIK that's lighting one line per two blanked out ones, but it bleeds like a motherfucker)
And then you have ocasional disheveled vertical lines on the shadow masks and that single handedly certainly fucks up our definition of retro gaming paradise for scanlines get hard to be represented if horizontal aperture holes are not aligned, but it doesn't apply to Sony sets at all.
Whoa, information overload. This thread is awesome.
I'll be mainly using mine for Gamecube, PS2 and Wii stuff - with the Wii emulating older consoles. I have no interest in hooking up older consoles anymore. (They're packed away) I was initially hesitant on hooking up a Wii to a widescreen TV, because of the horrors that occurred when throwing it onto an HD LCD screen.
There's someone near me selling a XBR960, although she said the screen is slightly scuffed. I might have to go investigate how bad the damage is.
I'll be mainly using mine for Gamecube, PS2 and Wii stuff - with the Wii emulating older consoles. I have no interest in hooking up older consoles anymore. (They're packed away) I was initially hesitant on hooking up a Wii to a widescreen TV, because of the horrors that occurred when throwing it onto an HD LCD screen.
There's someone near me selling a XBR960, although she said the screen is slightly scuffed. I might have to go investigate how bad the damage is.
lostinblue
Banned
Wii is the last console capable of outputting real 240p on-spec (PS3 and X360 can't do it, Xbox 1 couldn't pull it as well), hence, with proper fiddling on most emulators you get 240p scanlines out of it on a retro TV with the cables it accepts; Composite, S-Video, RGB or component, your pick.
It looks glorious. If someone wants to I can take a few pictures. Playing Mega Drive/Genesis on it is honestly better than the original console (taking the controller aside, but that can be solved), because it has a setting to fake composite transparencies... blending out the dithering, as illustrated here - accurately illustrated on the sonic comparison one, it cleanly delivers the end result, note that if that was composite colors would suck, the emulator though does the blending whilst keeping the RGB output, which was the thing RF and Composhite on Genesis/Mega Drive didn't.
There's some degradation of horizontal detail on a full frame basis with it applied (as shown), but it positively saves games that relied on it from looking like checkerboard demo's with RGB cables... or looking like vomit over shitty cables. Getting transparencies over a quality output and scanlines feels like the best thing ever.
SNES I still prefer on the original console, due to the fact that no emulator can get to be that good with some games out there, but it's certainly sometimes more convenient to set up still.
Wii is my retro roadwarrior machine for that.
It looks glorious. If someone wants to I can take a few pictures. Playing Mega Drive/Genesis on it is honestly better than the original console (taking the controller aside, but that can be solved), because it has a setting to fake composite transparencies... blending out the dithering, as illustrated here - accurately illustrated on the sonic comparison one, it cleanly delivers the end result, note that if that was composite colors would suck, the emulator though does the blending whilst keeping the RGB output, which was the thing RF and Composhite on Genesis/Mega Drive didn't.
There's some degradation of horizontal detail on a full frame basis with it applied (as shown), but it positively saves games that relied on it from looking like checkerboard demo's with RGB cables... or looking like vomit over shitty cables. Getting transparencies over a quality output and scanlines feels like the best thing ever.
SNES I still prefer on the original console, due to the fact that no emulator can get to be that good with some games out there, but it's certainly sometimes more convenient to set up still.
Wii is my retro roadwarrior machine for that.
You should. All three of those have component as an option, a bunch of GC games are 480p (highlights are Viewtiful Joe 1 and 2, Windwaker, Twilight Princess, LoZ collection, Star Wars RS II and III, RE4, Metroid Prime 1 and 2), some are even 16:9, some PS2 games are 480p as well. Meanwhile pretty much all Wii games will look their absolute best on an XBR960.
I'd be picky on the scuffing though. A slightly lower tier HD Trinitron is better than settling for a scratched screen that you'll see and live with henceforth. Also, these things are heavy enough to where you'll only want to deal with moving one once. They're back breakers. Don't go through all that work for something that isn't up to your standards.
She sent me some pics, and I gotta say, the damage is pretty bad. There's a vertical scratch going along up the screen, due by her brother in law's zipper on his pants. Damn it.
Turns out the HD CRT for sale is right around the corner from where I live, so I'm picking that up tonight.
I'll have a Sony KV-27FS120 in one room and a Sony KV-30HS420 in another. For less than $70.
No complaints.
Turns out the HD CRT for sale is right around the corner from where I live, so I'm picking that up tonight.
I'll have a Sony KV-27FS120 in one room and a Sony KV-30HS420 in another. For less than $70.
No complaints.
dear God what have I started, GAF?
Picked up a Toshiba 30HF85 with some scratches on it on Sunday but you can't see em with the lights on for 25$ at a thrift store. After configuring it, it looks really good. It also has a HDMI port, although when hooking it up to a PC if you use 1080i the colors get weird and it goes 30 fps, but 720p it looks good, though. Perfect for 360/PS3/WiiU/
.
Just don't become like me. I only recently found out how decent CRTs are for gaming and I have one 21 inch Sony Trinitron, this 30 inch HD Toshiba CRT, and a 14 inch Toshiba CRT. I feel consumed. lol
Xbox One 
Just don't become like me. I only recently found out how decent CRTs are for gaming and I have one 21 inch Sony Trinitron, this 30 inch HD Toshiba CRT, and a 14 inch Toshiba CRT. I feel consumed. lol
StarCreator
Member
If you're so intent on getting an authentic experience that you're gaming on an SD CRT, you probably want to avoid the Retron 5. Unlike the previous Retron systems which used hardware roughly equivalent to the original consoles, the Retron 5 is an Android system loaded with emulators (this is how it achieves its wide support of multiple consoles at once AND can output HDMI). Makes it completely pointless IMO.
Last night I gave away two 32" CRTs (one 4:3, one 16:9) to people who were willing to carry it out of my house. There's still another 32" and a 20" left over.
Last night I gave away two 32" CRTs (one 4:3, one 16:9) to people who were willing to carry it out of my house. There's still another 32" and a 20" left over.
It uses hardware emulation as well.
baphomet
Member
It's all software. Like he said, it's android based emulation. Unless you consider it dumping the rom from the cart hardware emulation.
baphomet
Member
Like it says, they don't want to use the word for fear of misrepresentation. It's not hardware based.
In fact that article specifically says they're not using similar chips or taking them out of existing electronics.
HalfwayOrb
Member
yea, sony trintron is one of the best sd tvs. i found it at a yard sales for 5 bucks. good shit. heavy as hell though (around 32 inches).
That's because instead of using recycled parts they are using original parts this time. They have a new manufacturing method and they don't want people to copy it and sell their own.
Mr. E. Yis
Banned
I got a Sony Trinitron/Wega KV27FS17 from a friend for $10. I'm happy it has component connections on the back, and my friend says it worked fine, but I haven't tested it with any of my old consoles. Is this a good tv for retro gaming? How can I find out about if it has good 'Tvlines'?
Heh, in the past two weeks I got a KV-30HS420 and a KV-27FS13 from craiglist for $75. SInce my arcade monitor died, I started looking for replacements and these were cheap alternatives. My co-worker also gave me a 27" Panasonic TV with components inputs for free, and that's what I'm using in the arcade cabinet right now. The Sonys have a better picture no doubt, but they were so heavy I didn't have enough people to lift them into the cabinet, so I went with the Panasonic...for now...
Was able to set it up last night, but only got one picture before leaving work this morning.
Picture looks better than I had imagined. I'll take more tonight! Thanks for everyone's insight/recommendations.
That geometry looks fantastic.
Fox Mulder
Member
that's spin since they're using cartridges to dump the roms, but everything else is emulation for all their big features.
I'll still want one for the convenience and use on a HDTV though.
RoryDropkick
Member
I think I've posted here about my tv before, but I wanted to ask again in case anyone knew -
I own a KV-36XBR800, and it works beautifully for the most part. Progressive scan games <XB, PS2> look wonderful, and I also have 2 component ports so I also have my Saturn/SNES/Mega Drive hooked up through SCART---> component. Thing is with the NES, FC and SNES I seem to get this odd dot crawl that happens when I move a character across the screen, you can see the crawl slowly going from bottom to top.
I've been able to access the service menu, but I was not able to find anything worthwhile, or I wasn't looking in the right places.. but is there a way to rectify this, or turn off a specific filter? Any help would be fantastic.
I own a KV-36XBR800, and it works beautifully for the most part. Progressive scan games <XB, PS2> look wonderful, and I also have 2 component ports so I also have my Saturn/SNES/Mega Drive hooked up through SCART---> component. Thing is with the NES, FC and SNES I seem to get this odd dot crawl that happens when I move a character across the screen, you can see the crawl slowly going from bottom to top.
I've been able to access the service menu, but I was not able to find anything worthwhile, or I wasn't looking in the right places.. but is there a way to rectify this, or turn off a specific filter? Any help would be fantastic.
Lynd7
Member
This thread made me pull out the CRT I have kept around for old consoles, it only has composite, but its what I used back around 2002-2005. The TV itself was probably from 2002 as well.
Question though. Once I had hooked it up to see how it looked again, I noticed that the image wasn't completely straight and square. I don't know if this has happened over the years its been in-active, or if it was always like that. It's not quite as noticeable with a full image, but its still there.
You can see it on horizontal lines in the images I have uploaded. For instance, the GBA border is slanted and the menu on Goemon is the same.
TV is an NEC PF51T31, its an Australian model.
Question though. Once I had hooked it up to see how it looked again, I noticed that the image wasn't completely straight and square. I don't know if this has happened over the years its been in-active, or if it was always like that. It's not quite as noticeable with a full image, but its still there.
You can see it on horizontal lines in the images I have uploaded. For instance, the GBA border is slanted and the menu on Goemon is the same.
TV is an NEC PF51T31, its an Australian model.
lostinblue
Banned
^ You need to mess with the trim pots.
Composite only is a shame, no S-Video either?
Composite only is a shame, no S-Video either?
I am in the same boat. I really like my 32'' CRT, even if it's not one of the brands people rave about. It has component input, my DVD's and Wii look great on it, and with the built in converter, OTA television looks really good too. But the thing is just so darn big and heavy. I'm planning on getting an HDTV in the near future (was gifted a gaming PC, and am looking forward to comfy couch PC gaming), and once that's in, the CRT will have to go. Alas, input-lag-free gaming, I hardly knew ya.
Jonnyboy117
Member
Has anyone ever used the follow-up to gxTV that had the extra inch hat is now common on PC monitors? (This was before widescreen became standard, but that would be irrelevant for legacy consoles.)
Lynd7
Member
Yeah its only got composite inputs. When I have more space etc I may try and track down something with component at least. That said, I just played a bunch of Goemon and it doesn't look that bad.
Roddslayer
Member
I've never done any retro gaming on a TV larger that 23" and I'm looking at a KV-36FS100 (36" Sony Wega) on craigslist for $25. How does it look with the image blown up. I'll be sitting about 8 feet away in the room I'm setting up. Any help would be great.
sixteen-bit
Member
My only advice is use the best cables available (since it has component inputs, systems like Genesis, SNES, PS1, and Saturn should use RGB cables + Component transcoder for that TV).
Also, bring an army with you to help carry it.
Also, bring an army with you to help carry it.
I sat about eight feet away from the identical model 32 inch. I felt the screen was just a tad too small, but the thought of carrying 225lbs of 36" TV down my stairs made me stick to that size. A 36 inch would be perfect.
If you are carrying it up stairs, you will need at least three people.
StarCreator
Member
Make sure that army doesn't include lightweights like me. I actually killed one of the TVs I was giving away when I lost my grip on it while moving it .-.
Roddslayer
Member
Thanks for the input guys I'm going to pick it up tonight.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I have some slight geometry issues on my Sony 26 inch Trinitron.
Is it better to just be happy that they are minor or try to play with the settings and maybe make it worse?
Is it better to just be happy that they are minor or try to play with the settings and maybe make it worse?
It depends on what sort of errors you have.
Convergence (blue/red/green smearing, blurriness, or misalignment) is not fixable.
Horizontal bowing (horizontal lines curve up or down) is not fixable.
Almost anything else is fixable in the service menu using just a few settings. If you are going to tweak, either use a calibration DVD or some of your favourite games that have grids, tiles, or squares.
Convergence (blue/red/green smearing, blurriness, or misalignment) is not fixable.
Horizontal bowing (horizontal lines curve up or down) is not fixable.
Almost anything else is fixable in the service menu using just a few settings. If you are going to tweak, either use a calibration DVD or some of your favourite games that have grids, tiles, or squares.