So is this thing any good for N64/Gamecube games on an HDTV? I'd go S-video into that probably.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003NS0UUQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003NS0UUQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
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Best CRT TV for old school systems...?
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
- Start date
Sword Of Doom
Member
Yes trinitrons were the best
RedAssedApe
Banned
trinitrons were the best. heavy as fuck though lol
terrdactycalsrock
Member
Tested did an article on this subject
http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/
http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/
JrBaconCheeseburger
Member
Funny thing is i recall going to E3 when PS2 was in full effect and they had the games hooked up via component cable on those Sony Wega Gray TVs.
It looked incredible and i thought those where the best TVs ever. The big CRTs lined up all over sony booth.
It looked incredible and i thought those where the best TVs ever. The big CRTs lined up all over sony booth.
8bitForLife
Member
It's no HD CRT, so it should have no problems. If you have lightguns and games, try it!
As for HD CRTs, they will NOT work with lightguns. You'll see flashing because the console knows it's hooked up, but good luck hitting anything as you'll have just as much luck shooting the wall behind you.
I should be able to hook up a dc then np and play hod2 no problem. I think I can get a dvi to vga for the back also.
Yeah, that might make it a great DC Tube too! Possibly even for PS2, Gamecube and Xbox with their 480p content!
I might be mistaken, but this appears to be a rebranded lkv363a.
I did some research on that specific upscaler recently, and found the following site (in Korean (I used Google Translate)):
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=saebaryo&logNo=30175551067
Basically, the lkv363a appears to be a no go for 240p sources (everything before the PS2). On the tested Super Famicom, it adds severe artifacts. Check the pictures and video of Area 88, they look terrible.
However, it does a pretty decent job on 480i sources (Gamecube), check Thunderforce V pics and video.
One thing you will want to make sure of is whether or not the device you found has a proper 4:3 mode.
Apparently, Lenkeng made 4:3 optional on its lkv363a. Some clones are built without this option, so they output at a forced 16:9.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Small, older curved screen CRTs are the way to go. Sharp or Sony. Flatscreen CRTs don't look as good.
lostinblue
Banned
Sony is good, but they were not the only top dog:
-> http://scarthunter.blogspot.pt/
Good source for good TV models, he doesn't go for Sony, doesn't seem to like their trinitron aperture masks. I think his blog is very useful due to that alone (because otherwise it would feel like a Sony world), also because he sure photographs some sexy scanlines.
I'm sure that by avoiding Sony sets he also spares a pretty penny and is probably able to get less used up equipment. PVM's and BVM's are sex on wheels, YES. But they're also used on video production, if you order one you have to know it's past, or you might be buying a 1998 TV that has been on for 15 years now. It's nearing it's demise.
Anyway, the single most important thing for CRT's is TVLines, which is the maximum amount of vertical, black and white lines one can discern. Most low range TV's had 250 TVL's which utter sucks balls.
One should aim for 600 TVL's minimum. 800/900/1000 TVL's look good, yes, but they also can feel a little like overkill and are getting to be expensive due to increased people looking out for them. Scanlines get to be more pronounced on them, but a 600 TVL screen has sexy scanlines just the same.
Can't really explain, I have a PVM-1454 and a PVM-14M4 and granted, the M4 is not as bright (I think it was used non-stop, while the 1454 is as new as a 1997 TV can get)
Anyway, I bought the M4 primarily to see the difference, and ended up prefering my 600 TVL model over the 800 TVL one.
Can't really explain, I can say though... I don't think it looks any worse for 240p and 480i content; it's the width of the scanlines that changes, really. Not the definition.
-> http://scarthunter.blogspot.pt/
Good source for good TV models, he doesn't go for Sony, doesn't seem to like their trinitron aperture masks. I think his blog is very useful due to that alone (because otherwise it would feel like a Sony world), also because he sure photographs some sexy scanlines.
I'm sure that by avoiding Sony sets he also spares a pretty penny and is probably able to get less used up equipment. PVM's and BVM's are sex on wheels, YES. But they're also used on video production, if you order one you have to know it's past, or you might be buying a 1998 TV that has been on for 15 years now. It's nearing it's demise.
Anyway, the single most important thing for CRT's is TVLines, which is the maximum amount of vertical, black and white lines one can discern. Most low range TV's had 250 TVL's which utter sucks balls.
One should aim for 600 TVL's minimum. 800/900/1000 TVL's look good, yes, but they also can feel a little like overkill and are getting to be expensive due to increased people looking out for them. Scanlines get to be more pronounced on them, but a 600 TVL screen has sexy scanlines just the same.
Can't really explain, I have a PVM-1454 and a PVM-14M4 and granted, the M4 is not as bright (I think it was used non-stop, while the 1454 is as new as a 1997 TV can get)
Anyway, I bought the M4 primarily to see the difference, and ended up prefering my 600 TVL model over the 800 TVL one.
Can't really explain, I can say though... I don't think it looks any worse for 240p and 480i content; it's the width of the scanlines that changes, really. Not the definition.
lostinblue
Banned
Later ones can; problem with flat was convergence; pictured turned blurry on the sides.
I have a crappy piece of Samsung flat shit that doesn't have good image quality due to that alone, and it's a 2003 TV or so. But later Sony sets are not really like that.
Then again the XBR960 is one of the best looking TV's known to men, but it's not as good for retro or 480i gaming as some other more "native" sets I know of.
lostinblue
Banned
Geometry can be calibrated.
But yeah, we're dealing with old sets, getting a perfect one can be hard, geometry is not the biggest problem providing it has trimpots for that, but pink areas make the screens garbage.
But it's worth it, in the end. Perhaps consider looking for other brands, top Phillips, Blaupunkt, Loewe, Sharp, Grundig were pretty awesome 60 TVL 60 Hz sets. And remember, as important as brand is... going big! If you wan't small PVM-14's are your only choice and they have to be 600 TVL's otherwise... They lack RGB capabilities and TVL's (while still being better than most TV's that size, but that's not saying much).
20" and over is the sweet spot, for finding a TV with 600 TVL's, note; one can count them if the aperture mask is visible. I've counted most crappy (properly inched) TV's to have in the vicinity of 250 TVL.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Is your Samsung widescreen? I had one of those, the overscan on the sides was really bad and it couldn't be fixed even in the service menu.
I have yet to see a 4:3 flat CRT that I've liked, I must have had really bad luck with them.
lostinblue
Banned
Yup, huge piece of shit, that.
I wish I knew more about TV's then, as I was responsible for that purchase.
The thing has no detail whatsoever even while it seems to be some kind of sharpning filter being applied to the image (when you turn it off, for the second it remains on, the image turns into what I can only guess it's the real feed, even blurrier).
I've seen a few satisfactory ones. 2004/2004 Sony CRT's, mostly.
They're 100 Hz though, a few years ago and since it had to be a all rounder (one could only have one screen) 100 Hz could be a blessing for regular TV and the like (eye strain sparers), but now we have TV's specifically for retro gaming so I think we can live with 60 Hz providing we don't play 24/7.
I'm not a flat tube lover of any sort, but I've honestly seen "good enough"; sadly those good enough sets do not include *that* Samsung.
In a world I can track down anything I'd only want two flat CRT's TV's, a XBR960 and a BVM BVMA32E1 (or similar).
Bummer.
Good thing they were hopefully cheap.
I had one. A beautiful 27" flat Wega (the ideal one with component) I used for gaming from 2001 till 2004 for my Cube but the thing died and would not start. I'll never go near a Wega again. Really soured me.
vicoakland
Member
Own a Sony Wega KV27FS13. Use this to game on PS2 and PS3. (gasp!)
Using component, this is the best CRT I have owned (which includes curved screen models.) For shmups, arcade games and fighters it's great. For most PS2 games it's beyond perfect, ie. some games look jaw-dropping. (War of the Monsters and Maximo, to name two.)
This model has a useful manual setting to switch to a non-distorting panoramic mode (Jak 2, for example, looks great like this.) It also offers a choice with regards to setting Velocity Modulation (Off, Low, High.) There is a small overscan, but it's never bothered me much, and most games where it matters have ways to calibrate the screen.
One advantage regarding PS1 games is that PS2 consoles can output PS1 games through component (while the original PS1 console cannot.) For some PS1 games the improvement is simply incredible. Bloody Roar 2, Rival Schools, Tobal, Legend of Mana, Xenogears, Ridge Racer 4, R-Type Delta, Threads of Fate, etc. --look awesome. You can also really see how a game like Vagrant Story pushed the limits of the available technology.
Unfortunately, while 99% of PS2-era games look amazing on this CRT, however, a few later-era PS2 anthology games incorporate filters that tend to blur things. This has nothing to do with the TV, of course, but it's worth mentioning since playing these games on a CRT won't fix the filtering no matter how you set the television. The worst example of this is Samurai Shodown Anthology where games 1-5 in the series all are filtered but SamSho 6 is sharp; unfortunately, Sonic Mega Collection suffers from this, too. The fliter isn't so off putting that I haven't played the heck out of both anthologies, but it's a shame to have blur when other retro anthologies like Mega Man X Collection, Fatal Fury Battle Archives 2 and Metal Slug are excellent and sharp.
The PS3 games I've played look great. I can't say if they'd look better on a newer television, because I don't have a comparison, but I am surprisingly happy with the image and gameplay. The Last of Us, Valkyria Chronicles, Arkham Asylum, Limbo, Dragon's Dogma and Super Street Fighter 4 look awesome. Games like Heavenly Sword and DmC...a bit less so. It feels like they'd need a bigger TV or a higher resololution display for some of their effects. Probably the biggest downside is PS3 games with very small text, but that hasn't really been a problem so far with anything I've played.
As a side note about PS3 backwards compatability with PS1 games, R-Type Delta plays perfectly on the PS3, but it is clearly emulated. To be clear, it looks and plays pretty darn great on the levels that I've made it through, but some of the effects that the game deploys (the amazing underground waterfall, for example, or some of the explosions) display properly on the CRT outputted on the PS2 but just don't hold up played on the PS3.
As for Velocity Modulation, while I leave it set to OFF most of the time (and always with PS3) there are some PS1 and PS2 games that look a bit better with Low or even High VM. The text will clearly take a hit through sharpening, but some of the game details improve in helpful ways (I'm thinking of shmups in particular). Some might say this is heresy, but since this model gives you control you can set it how you want.
If you have the space for it and like retro games, get a CRT mostly because it's fun to collect as the technology changes (kind of analogous to vinyl, or tube amps) and the games look great. (For anyone curious about a (very) detailed view, check out this video for an up close look.)
Using component, this is the best CRT I have owned (which includes curved screen models.) For shmups, arcade games and fighters it's great. For most PS2 games it's beyond perfect, ie. some games look jaw-dropping. (War of the Monsters and Maximo, to name two.)
This model has a useful manual setting to switch to a non-distorting panoramic mode (Jak 2, for example, looks great like this.) It also offers a choice with regards to setting Velocity Modulation (Off, Low, High.) There is a small overscan, but it's never bothered me much, and most games where it matters have ways to calibrate the screen.
One advantage regarding PS1 games is that PS2 consoles can output PS1 games through component (while the original PS1 console cannot.) For some PS1 games the improvement is simply incredible. Bloody Roar 2, Rival Schools, Tobal, Legend of Mana, Xenogears, Ridge Racer 4, R-Type Delta, Threads of Fate, etc. --look awesome. You can also really see how a game like Vagrant Story pushed the limits of the available technology.
Unfortunately, while 99% of PS2-era games look amazing on this CRT, however, a few later-era PS2 anthology games incorporate filters that tend to blur things. This has nothing to do with the TV, of course, but it's worth mentioning since playing these games on a CRT won't fix the filtering no matter how you set the television. The worst example of this is Samurai Shodown Anthology where games 1-5 in the series all are filtered but SamSho 6 is sharp; unfortunately, Sonic Mega Collection suffers from this, too. The fliter isn't so off putting that I haven't played the heck out of both anthologies, but it's a shame to have blur when other retro anthologies like Mega Man X Collection, Fatal Fury Battle Archives 2 and Metal Slug are excellent and sharp.
The PS3 games I've played look great. I can't say if they'd look better on a newer television, because I don't have a comparison, but I am surprisingly happy with the image and gameplay. The Last of Us, Valkyria Chronicles, Arkham Asylum, Limbo, Dragon's Dogma and Super Street Fighter 4 look awesome. Games like Heavenly Sword and DmC...a bit less so. It feels like they'd need a bigger TV or a higher resololution display for some of their effects. Probably the biggest downside is PS3 games with very small text, but that hasn't really been a problem so far with anything I've played.
As a side note about PS3 backwards compatability with PS1 games, R-Type Delta plays perfectly on the PS3, but it is clearly emulated. To be clear, it looks and plays pretty darn great on the levels that I've made it through, but some of the effects that the game deploys (the amazing underground waterfall, for example, or some of the explosions) display properly on the CRT outputted on the PS2 but just don't hold up played on the PS3.
As for Velocity Modulation, while I leave it set to OFF most of the time (and always with PS3) there are some PS1 and PS2 games that look a bit better with Low or even High VM. The text will clearly take a hit through sharpening, but some of the game details improve in helpful ways (I'm thinking of shmups in particular). Some might say this is heresy, but since this model gives you control you can set it how you want.
If you have the space for it and like retro games, get a CRT mostly because it's fun to collect as the technology changes (kind of analogous to vinyl, or tube amps) and the games look great. (For anyone curious about a (very) detailed view, check out this video for an up close look.)
This is the one I found on craigslist after my arcade monitor died. I got it for $25. I was going to put it on the cabinet, but it weighs almost twice as much as the Panasonic that I ended up using. I am going to keep it in a spare bedroom. Indeed, for the most part, the picture is really good. The only problem is some curvature in the image at the bottom left corner. I'll end up using it for my NES and SNES.
CorporateClown
Member
Hey everyone,
I've recently come into a Sony kv-20fs100 that I was going to use for snes and genesis games. However, I have a friend who's offering me a 20" Citizen tv for free. Before I told him no I wanted to check and make sure sticking with the sony is the right move. Thoughts?
I've recently come into a Sony kv-20fs100 that I was going to use for snes and genesis games. However, I have a friend who's offering me a 20" Citizen tv for free. Before I told him no I wanted to check and make sure sticking with the sony is the right move. Thoughts?
sixteen-bit
Member
go with the sony
Yeah thats better than a Citizen.
Not exactly the best Trinitron, no component inputs. But it's got an s-video input at least.
I saw something cool today TV-wise. A bunch of 32" CRTs with dual VGA inputs as well as all the standard inputs. Labled as Monovision. Looked like a normal TV and not a computer monitor. They were being used as props in a dummy city/houses/tunnels I was working in. Were not plugged in or anything but they were really interesting!
Those are computer monitors even though they look like TVs. They don't accept 15khz input though (240p/480i). So pointless for retro consoles. Well would be good for Dreamcast maybe (since it has native VGA support).
Really this would be ok for a Mame machine. But only for the newer arcade games.
What are the symptoms? I wanna know for when one of my PVMs starts to croak after 18 years! :O
It looks almost like the blues and reds are starting to separate? Apparently this is a common issue that can be repaired or something. I don't know a lot about it. Maybe I'm imagining it even. I love this TV though so I hope that it lasts me a while longer.
Sanctuary
Member
And heavy as fuck. The television I had until 2009 was a 35'' Trinitron. Looked great though.
I have thrown my back out on 3 separate occasions when lifting mine, hahaha! It's also hard to find an entertainment center that can support them!
By then OLEDs will be on the market thankfully.
Just curious, what does that mean for retro gaming?
That's where this comes in!
Does this have an HDMI out or something? Personally I really wary of hardware like this. It usually doesn't play everything and tends to distort colors and sound.
It has HDMI and composite. It's going to be released in Q2 2014 so you can check it out after everyone has reviewed the console then if it lives up to the hype.
I want so badly for it to turn out good, and I really hope it does, but I don't have a lot of faith.
baphomet
Member
Same.
In fact, im sure once its in some actual enthusiasts hands we're going to hear a bunch of bad things. For me, it may be a good thing just to have in the living room to play on my main tv. But it will never replace the actual consoles.
I felt the same about the NeoGeoX Gold and it turned out pretty much how I expected. Glad I held off it though.
8bitForLife
Member
Apparently it well play everything perfectly because they posted videos if the many problem games on clone systems. Also it seems to be running emulators using carts on actual ports. So I'm kind of excited for it. If it turns out good maybe they'll add turbo grafx, n64 or even cdrom system support.
lostinblue
Banned
That system is ARM-based and runs everything through emulators.
It's interesting et all, but it's not the real thing.
And I want the real thing.
THIS, is a good article.
That machine is not gonna emulate any machine 100%, therefore it might be as usable as most emulators out there, but it's still be hit and miss a lot of the times.
Issue is not so much 3D games being emulated as those can usually benefit (PSone 3D coordinates precision clusterfuck aside), but older games who were very low-end oriented (they went to the point of exploiting architecture bugs and hack it through and through)... Take Mother 3, for instance, timing is really hard on it because emulation is never timing based unless it's very low end emulation at that. Hence most combos fail whilst running on a emulator.
It's not such a deal breaker 'cause you can finish the game anyway, but it's small quirks, here and there... Everywhere.
It's probably gonna be the best "all-in-one" thing out and about, and the best clone too, seeing it can receive updates; but it's not a very logical machine. I mean, if you have space for all those SNES games you're telling me you can't possibly stuff the console too? It's more of a practical machine that people will keep around, being inexpensive and mostly working, but replacing actual retro consoles? hell fucking no.
It's saving grace is HDMI and save states, since a lot of people are struggling with plugging their old stuff to new TV's, and save states can come in handy, sure. I still think the future for aficionados lies more around the lines of the XRGB-mini/framemeister. Image post processing applied on top, like a AV Receiver, albeit for games.
Just remembered another thing that never works right on emulators... which is flicker transparency, 240p 60 Hz effects in general; because they're emulating your console... Not your old TV.
The Mini was a bad step in the AV receiver direction, seeing as much as it costs it doesn't look any more premium or professionally oriented than it's older sibblings, and it removed ports that now require adapters, they'd have their butt on fire if someone got into that market now and had 5 RGB ports or something like that.
I think sooner or later a custom built ARM part will be able to compete with the right software by throwing the GPU at it, so I hope someone tackles it eventually. I'm guessing that could get to be really cheap.
It's interesting et all, but it's not the real thing.
And I want the real thing.
THIS, is a good article.
That machine is not gonna emulate any machine 100%, therefore it might be as usable as most emulators out there, but it's still be hit and miss a lot of the times.
Issue is not so much 3D games being emulated as those can usually benefit (PSone 3D coordinates precision clusterfuck aside), but older games who were very low-end oriented (they went to the point of exploiting architecture bugs and hack it through and through)... Take Mother 3, for instance, timing is really hard on it because emulation is never timing based unless it's very low end emulation at that. Hence most combos fail whilst running on a emulator.
It's not such a deal breaker 'cause you can finish the game anyway, but it's small quirks, here and there... Everywhere.
It's probably gonna be the best "all-in-one" thing out and about, and the best clone too, seeing it can receive updates; but it's not a very logical machine. I mean, if you have space for all those SNES games you're telling me you can't possibly stuff the console too? It's more of a practical machine that people will keep around, being inexpensive and mostly working, but replacing actual retro consoles? hell fucking no.
It's saving grace is HDMI and save states, since a lot of people are struggling with plugging their old stuff to new TV's, and save states can come in handy, sure. I still think the future for aficionados lies more around the lines of the XRGB-mini/framemeister. Image post processing applied on top, like a AV Receiver, albeit for games.
Just remembered another thing that never works right on emulators... which is flicker transparency, 240p 60 Hz effects in general; because they're emulating your console... Not your old TV.
The Mini was a bad step in the AV receiver direction, seeing as much as it costs it doesn't look any more premium or professionally oriented than it's older sibblings, and it removed ports that now require adapters, they'd have their butt on fire if someone got into that market now and had 5 RGB ports or something like that.
I think sooner or later a custom built ARM part will be able to compete with the right software by throwing the GPU at it, so I hope someone tackles it eventually. I'm guessing that could get to be really cheap.
baphomet
Member
It definitely doesnt run everything perfectly. As has been said, its an emulator. The only reason the carts are there is so it can dump the rom to emulate.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Not a chance. I'm sure it'll be good, though.
The delay has been good for the Retron, now has a debug menu where custom FW can be loaded and also now supports rom patches via SD card slot, so games that never saw an English language release can now be patched with fan made translations.
All this suggests to me that we will easily be able to load roms from SD card and also add support for other system, ie PC-Engine!!!
lostinblue
Banned
Yup.
Flat had initial issues with focusing on the corners too.
That was solved on later Sony sets, like 34XBR960 and BVM A32
Still, the fact they're flat, often 16:9 as well as 100 Hz and over makes it so that they're less genuine for retro gaming than their curved counterparts, it's certainly not the same thing.
7DollarHagane
Banned
At this point I'd take anything that has component input, doesn't have geometry or color issues, does 240p/240i, and isn't over 50 pounds.
I actually think retro games look fantastic on smaller CRTs. I have a 13 inch flat Trinitron with component input and ps1/2 games look absolutely fantastic on it. If there are any geometry issues they aren't as noticeable as on my 27inch Trinitron.
I actually think retro games look fantastic on smaller CRTs. I have a 13 inch flat Trinitron with component input and ps1/2 games look absolutely fantastic on it. If there are any geometry issues they aren't as noticeable as on my 27inch Trinitron.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Also as for the return I don't even understand why people buy those. If you have a computer that was made after 2006 it can do a LOT more emulation at better quality than the retron, which is just a little PC being sold with emulators on it and cart slots.