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Media Create Sales 2/25 - 3/2

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
AnimeTheme said:
MS is far more easily accessible than a R4 though. Some people may even already have a MS before buying PSP. Besides, MS is almost a must-have accessory for PSP (especially for those who use it as a PMP), while you can only use R4 on NDS.

R4s are available at a large number of stores across Asia and an increasing number in the US. They're available everywhere online. Googling "How do I get free DS games?" will give you a link to a Youtube video that explains the process on page one.

The average PSP user does not have a 4 gig memory stick and will have to buy one in order to pirate. Cost-wise, the two are equal. Effort-wise, I think you greatly overestimate the effort required to get an R4 and greatly overestimate how likely it is that people have access to "a guy" to do their CFW/Pandora.

It's hard to directly compare the piracy situation between PSP and NDS, as there are just too many differences and incomparable factors between them, but in short, I still think people have higher tendency to pirate on PSP than on NDS.

This may be the case, but again--why is it that people accept that PSP piracy is a total explanation for widespread software failure, but refusal to even apply the same standard to another system with at least comparable ease of piracy is pitiful.
 

Laguna

Banned
Grecco said:
PSP/DS third party sofware discussion number 355000 right?

Arent you guys sick of discussing the same thing again? Almost like sysiphus and the mountain

Some people feal the need to blandish the sales. If it where the other way around (Sony games selling more than 3rd Parties like Nintendo does) I´m sure the same people would argue the other way around. Fanboys...
 

Durante

Member
Kiriku said:
There's also another possibility, that the PSP appeals more to demographics that are into piracy and know how it works.
While I don't believe that all or even most of the software sales problems on PSP are piracy related, I think that is a significant factor. People who buy Brain Training or NSMB are just a lot less likely (in my mind) to pirate than those buying (or not) CCFF7 or MGSPO.
 
Laguna said:
Some people feal the need to blandish the sales. If it where the other way around (Sony games selling more than 3rd Parties like Nintendo does) I´m sure the same people would argue the other way around. Fanboys...

It's not just the Sony fanboys; you really need two very insecure partys to let this kind of discussion appear over and over again.
 

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
Hay Guys, let's talk about piracy.

For the thousandth time.

Unless Dark Alex will divulge download numbers for Custom Firmware or the R4 company will release sales numbers, it will be hard to gauge piracy and how it truly affect both consoles.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Hcoregamer00 said:
Unless Dark Alex will divulge download numbers for Custom Firmware or the R4 company will release sales numbers, it will be hard to gauge piracy and how it truly affect both consoles.

Which is my whole point.

This conversation started when someone said "PSP SALES PIRACY BOMBA OMG!" and I was forced to point out that attributing PSP software failure to piracy is disingenuous and unprovable.
 

Kiriku

SWEDISH PERFECTION
Stumpokapow said:
1. So you think there's a demographic that the DS doesn't hit? Even though it is the best selling system ever (give or take on the GB/GBC sales split) and has probably one of the most diverse libraries ever?

2. If piracy is so arcane that only a specific demographic knows how to do it, why is it that the sort of titles that would generally appeal more to that demographic are still doing fine on the PSP while the rest of those titles suffer?

1. I kind of agree that it ties into your first possibility mentioned earlier. But the PSP does have features that goes beyond gaming, perhaps that's a deciding factor for pirates which partly ties into your third possibility as well. I don't know myself exactly what the typical pirate wants on a PSP. I'm just throwing some suggestions around.
Would be interesting to see a study of pirates: if there's a specific age group, certain games they find more appealing than others and so on and if it's possible to come to any conclusion based on that.

2. Well, we don't know for sure that some titles suffer more than others from piracy (%-wise). What are titles supposed to sell on PSP anyway? And as I said before, I don't know exactly which titles pirates are going to download or not. Maybe the games that actually DO take off on the PSP reaches an audience that goes beyond the regular pirates? Just speculating. :p
 

donny2112

Member
iidesuyo said:
Best selling Third Party game Dragon Quest Joker at ~1,5m

MHP2 is at 1,6m

...MHP2 has really sold more than any DS Third Party game?? O_O

Hey everyone! Let's now compare numbers 2 to infinity. What's that? The DS wins at every other position except #1? Imagine that!

Stormbringer said:
Haha, yeah, sorry about that.

No worries. It's just the nature of these threads that not every post is remembered by everyone, and what's posted on the current page tends to win out over what was posted in last week's thread or the previous page.

SovanJedi said:

:)

AnimeTheme said:
Self-answering time lol

Good use of the SQL. :)

Here are the numbers from my database using just the Top 30 in 2008, but through this most recent week. I can't readily explain the large differences. I know that I use a Top 30 for the first week of the year, and JoshuaJSlone only has a Top 20. Other than that we potentially should have the same data.

NDS - 2,186,297 (1,041,061) (22 games)
PSP - 588,699 (557,707) (6 games)

Edit:
Now I see the main difference with your SQL. You started at 2008-1-1, but the first week of the year started on 2007-12-31. Use that date in your SQL, and it should clear up the problem. Then the only difference will be 21-30 in the first week of the year and this most recent week.

Edit2:
You figured it out already, anyways. :)
 

kswiston

Member
Kiriku said:
Would be interesting to see a study of pirates: if there's a specific age group, certain games they find more appealing than others and so on and if it's possible to come to any conclusion based on that.

The demographics of game piraters will probably match up pretty closely to the demographics of gamers in general. That has been the case with people who pirate music and movies in past studies.

EDIT: By that, I mean the age group that purchases the most games is likely the same age group that pirates the most games.
 
donny2112 said:
Good use of the SQL. :)

Here are the numbers from my database using just the Top 30 in 2008, but through this most recent week. I can't readily explain the large differences. I know that I use a Top 30 for the first week of the year, and JoshuaJSlone only has a Top 20. Other than that we potentially should have the same data.

NDS - 2,186,297 (1,041,061) (22 games)
PSP - 588,699 (557,707) (6 games)

A huge portion of the difference comes from the "first" week alone. My comparison (Jan 1 as the starting date for the SQL) seemed to exclude the first week (which included one or a few day of sales in 2007... and one may arguably say it still had the holiday effects from last year), and that week alone added 671,789 for NDS.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
There's also another possibility, that the PSP appeals more to demographics that are into piracy and know how it works.
Theives have personal tastes that effect what they target.

(This is in the US) My job requires that I track inventory of at a store of a major retailer. Last year, we had PSP hardware placed on a endcap (the end of the aisle that faces the main aisles). The systems were sealed inside a heavy-duty plastic case on a security peghook. Over the course of 3 days, we had 5 systems stolen (3 Core, 2 Daxter) ... at which point we said, "No More!" and place the systems pack in the locked display case.

A few weeks later, it was the DS' (BA2 Bundle) turn to be placed on the endcap. The systems were also hung on security peghooks but by little plastic tags that were perforated were the tag meets the cardboard package. Easiest target I've ever seen. The entire month passed and not one DS was stolen. The DS were an easier target and far more popular than the PSP, but weren't what they wanted.
 

Opiate

Member
JJConrad said:
Theives have personal tastes that effect what they target.

(This is in the US) My job requires that I track inventory of at a store of a major retailer. Last year, we had PSP hardware placed on a endcap (the end of the aisle that faces the main aisles). The systems were sealed inside a heavy-duty plastic case on a security peghook. Over the course of 3 days, we had 5 systems stolen (3 Core, 2 Daxter) ... at which point we said, "No More!" and place the systems pack in the locked display case.

A few weeks later, it was the DS' (BA2 Bundle) turn to be placed on the endcap. The systems were also hung on security peghooks but by little plastic tags that were perforated were the tag meets the cardboard package. Easiest target I've ever seen. The entire month passed and not one DS was stolen. The DS were an easier target and far more popular than the PSP, but weren't what they wanted.

So what you're saying is that only criminals like the PSP?

JJConrad said:
No, I'm saying that PSP is a far greater risk for us than the DS, despite the DS being more popular. If there was an even distribution of activity that would not be the case.

Just for reference, JJ, I was just kidding.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
JJConrad said:
Theives have personal tastes that effect what they target.

... Most retail shrink goes on a secondary / pawn market, so it makes sense that the PSP would be a bigger target. Very little retail shrink is kept by the thief. The only notable case where people keep the products are teenagers for the most part.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Opiate said:
So what you're saying is that only criminals like the PSP?
No, I'm saying that PSP is a far greater risk for us than the DS, despite the DS being more popular. If there was an even distribution of activity that would not be the case.
Just for reference, JJ, I was just kidding.
No, problem. I gave me a chance to summarize my point.

But be careful. 'Members of your rank' aren't easily recognized for their style of posting. There are far too many people who would make a post like yours and be dead serious about it. Don't get yourself assoiciated with that group.

... Most retail shrink goes on a secondary / pawn market, so it makes sense that the PSP would be a bigger target. Very little retail shrink is kept by the thief. The only notable case where people keep the products are teenagers for the most part.
That makes no sense in this case. The PSP Core and BA2 DS are only $20 difference and the demand for the DS is far greater. There is no reason for the PSP to be a greater target.
 

Opiate

Member
There appears to be someone who is arguing that DS software sales are "very good" instead of "stratospheric," while PSP software sales are "not that bad" instead of "bad." That is a maddening sort of thing to argue against.

It's frustrating when a person chooses to further and further reduce their argument, rather than simply admit they were wrong. This process continues on and on until the person -- who may have originally been arguing that PSP/DS software sales are comparable, for example -- reduces their argument to a near meaningless, insignificant point -- for instance, see the above paragraph.
 
At least this "discussion" lead to the banning of iidesuyo.

Kurosaki Ichigo said:
Someone better get used to translate this from sinobi because I doubt I'll be here in time any week the next 4 months or so :lol

First day numbers
PS3 Ryu ga Gotoku Kenzan! - 113.000
WII Metroid Prime Corruption - 20.000
WII Minna no Joushiki Ryoku TV - 5.000 (very low sell through (<10%))
PS2/PS3 Guitar Hero III - 3.000 (sold out at many shops)
WII Family Jockey - 2.500
OK numbers for RGGK, although kind of surprising that it didn't beat DMC4's sales. I would've guessed beforehand that it would be far more appealing. Oh well, I hope it sells well during the week.

MP numbers are rather good I'd say, allthough it'll drop fast after 1 or 2 weeks. The quiz game is off to a very slow start, I thought it would do a lot better than BBA even though it'll sell in the long run of course.

picsou said:
resistance say hi :lol
That one can be attributed to the launch (and lack of compelling software). Otherwise we would've seen more FPS perform that way on PS3. CoD4, RSV, GR, CoD3 are all way below 100k. There's a niche audience for those kind of games but not more.

RpgN said:
It's true that games on the NDS can sell amazing, but that doesn't mean psp games are selling horrible. With the ds we are used to monster sales which makes us see others as a big failure. Psp games are selling decent lately, even though there are not many games released on it the last few months. So to the nintendo fanboys claiming the psp games are selling horrible, please stop downgrading the sales. Psp games can sell well too with a little effort. The ds is a monster and nobody can reach it, but the psp is very successful as well.
I wouldn't call it very successful but if publishers wouldn't make some money on the software they wouldn't release any. I think you can make an OK profit with high tier software, that's why we don't see a lot of releases.
 

Jokeropia

Member
:lol at iidesuyo

It's been a while since we had a stupid-argument-poster like that.
AnimeTheme said:
Every 3rd party must be some kind of retarded fanboy when 1st party sales mean shit to them.
The sales for third party A aren't any more interesting to third party B than the sales of first party games.
AnimeTheme said:
A huge portion of the difference comes from the "first" week alone. My comparison (Jan 1 as the starting date for the SQL) seemed to exclude the first week (which included one or a few day of sales in 2007... and one may arguably say it still had the holiday effects from last year), and that week alone added 671,789 for NDS.
The holiday period doesn't end at December 31 in Japan. The first week of January is actually a much more important holiday week and a significantly bigger week for video game sales than the week before.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
JJConrad said:
That makes no sense in this case. The PSP Core and BA2 DS are only $20 difference and the demand for the DS is far greater. There is no reason for the PSP to be a greater target.

What makes no sense is the claim that portable gaming machines magically don't follow the same rules all other retail shrink does. Even food shrink leads to stolen cheese being sold on a secondary market to retailers who are just happy to get a deal.

Now, as to why the pawn / secondary market better sustains the PSP? Who knows. But thieves steal to sell. Your conclusion might be true in that the kind of people who buy stolen or pawned PSPs are the piracy type and that's what's sustaining PSP theft...

But it's silly to say "Pirates are thieves and more thieves stole the PSP so piracy is a bigger issue on the PSP".
 

Blackhead

Redarse
Stumpokapow said:
And let's ask again--in all other consoles ever, piracy impacts best-selling titles as much or more than casual titles because pirates tend to be more tech-savvy and game-y and downloads tend to be based on games that are wanted. Why is it that the PSP has awesome AAA sales and very very very very poor median sales? Why is piracy the complete inverse on the PSP that it is on other systems?

Awesome posts to get this thread back on track. However, I disagree with this particular point. The average gamer, those least likely to pirate, pick up the big titles in droves. But for the niche titles, those ones hard to find in stores, are more likely to be pirated, especially by the hardcore who do know how to pirate. The AAA titles are usually the ones that are preordered for, waited in line for, have the most hype. Other titles may just be bumped of 'must buy' list to the 'rent/pirate' list.

Check some Media Create trades from 2 months back, you'll see similar opinions better argued that I can.

... on the other hand, doesn't Japan have forums like GAF? See the Shiren thread for what is essentially peer pressure to purchase a game that would be typically a niche title. The No More Heroes 'Get Out the Purchase' drive was in a similar vein and it actually worked. In such an environment I could understand your argument that if piracy were a big factor one would see AAA sales flipped with niche titles
 
Jokeropia said:
The sales for third party A aren't any more interesting to third party B than the sales of first party games.

That depends on what platform they are on, but seriously, I think 3rd parties care a lot more about the 3rd party sales than 1st party sales on a Nintendo (something they can't really directly compete with) platform.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Stumpokapow said:
What makes no sense is the claim that portable gaming machines magically don't follow the same rules all other retail shrink does. Even food shrink leads to stolen cheese being sold on a secondary market to retailers who are just happy to get a deal.

Now, as to why the pawn / secondary market better sustains the PSP? Who knows. But thieves steal to sell. Your conclusion might be true in that the kind of people who buy stolen or pawned PSPs are the piracy type and that's what's sustaining PSP theft...

But it's silly to say "Pirates are thieves and more thieves stole the PSP so piracy is a bigger issue on the PSP".
WTF are you smoking?
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
JJConrad said:
WTF are you smoking?

I'm not smoking anything, but thanks for being rude. Let me try to recap what I've said to you:

Retail shrink overwhelmingly gets sold in a secondary or pawn market. If your store experienced more PSP shrink than DS shrink, then the only conclusion you can draw is that the PSP has a higher value in secondary/pawn markets or that there's a bigger demand for secondary/pawned PSPs than DSs. Teenagers are pretty much the one exception to this rule.

This applies across all sectors of retail, including things you might think it would not apply to. Supermarkets regularly experience food shrink, for example. One might assume that food is not resold, but it often is through informal person-person sales. The biggest example in the food industry is the theft of meat and cheese that are then resold to businesses like pizza stores.

Your original post basically boiled down to "More PSPs are stolen [at your store], and pirates are thieves.", inviting readers to draw a conclusion about PSP piracy. This is not a conclusion that can be drawn, because the thief that steals the product is not the likely user of the product they steal.

What you COULD conclude is that more PSPs being stolen means that more people are willing to buy pawned PSPs or person-person sold PSPs in your town or area. This could suggest that people want PSPs but only for a lower price; it could suggest that pirates are scammer scum. It could suggest nothing at all.
 

RpgN

Junior Member
Pureauthor said:
Interesting comment...

You're forgetting one thing, the psp isn't only used for games unlike the nds. Hence why hardware is very high compared to the software.

The psp can't be compared with other consoles/handhelds, because the situation is too different. Not only does the psp have different functions, it's also sony's first handheld. The psp can be seen as a successful device the first to rival nintendo with handhelds.

And that's what I'm trying to say in a different way. The games released on the psp are too few with a little effort put into them, yet they sold decent. Nowadays you don't see games released like FFCC. It would be very interesting to see how these kind of games would fare. Because I'm feeling somehow that the consumers are really wanting some great games, yet only bones are thrown at them.

Phife Dawg, maybe I exaggerated with the psp being very successful, but it's not really horrible as some making it out to be.
 

Askia47

Member
Stumpokapow said:
R4s are available at a large number of stores across Asia and an increasing number in the US. They're available everywhere online. Googling "How do I get free DS games?" will give you a link to a Youtube video that explains the process on page one.

The average PSP user does not have a 4 gig memory stick and will have to buy one in order to pirate. Cost-wise, the two are equal. Effort-wise, I think you greatly overestimate the effort required to get an R4 and greatly overestimate how likely it is that people have access to "a guy" to do their CFW/Pandora.



This may be the case, but again--why is it that people accept that PSP piracy is a total explanation for widespread software failure, but refusal to even apply the same standard to another system with at least comparable ease of piracy is pitiful.

I read what you wrote on the past few pages and Its bothered me a bit. Consider the demographic as well for the PSP and DS and the ease of hacking them. While you pointed out that the DS has R4 units that are becoming more readily available, I don't think there as well known. Theres a chance alot of kids have a DS and their parents buy the games for them, not knowing much about the R4. The PSP can be hacked easier especially since the Slim only came out in September and probably has a more tech savvy demographic. Every psp before the slim can be hacked with ease and a memory stick can be obtained with ease. A R4 may be the same but I thinks a little more out if the way for consumers. Now the PSP hardware numbers going up and low software numbers could indicate it could have other uses. But the PSP imo seems kinda awkward for music and movies, other devices and do the same functions with easier software and more capable controls. Still people could be buying it for the ability to go online anywhere.

Honestly i think if anything its a mix of piracy and the use of other functions of the psp, that are keeping sales below DS ones.
 

lyre

Member
RpgN said:
You're forgetting one thing, the psp isn't only used for games unlike the nds. Hence why hardware is very high compared to the software.

The psp can't be compared with other consoles/handhelds, because the situation is too different. Not only does the psp have different functions, it's also sony's first handheld. The psp can be seen as a successful device the first to rival nintendo with handhelds.
That never stopped the PS2 from steamrolling the competition.
 

Lightning

Banned
Askia47 said:
Honestly i think if anything its a mix of piracy and the use of other functions of the psp, that are keeping sales below DS ones.
If piracy was what was hurting PSP software, why is Monster Hunter unaffected? Why was Crisis Core FFVII unaffected?

I think what's hurting PSP is the lack of popular games and it simply isn't getting as many games as the DS. Nintendo supported the DS quite well, Sony I don't feel have given the PSP adequate support. Sony have left it all to Capcom, Square Enix, Namco and Konami...

There is no excuse for the Gran Turismo PSP game to have not been released ages ago...
 

Askia47

Member
Lightning said:
If piracy was what was hurting PSP software, why is Monster Hunter unaffected? Why was Crisis Core FFVII unaffected?

I think what's hurting PSP is the lack of popular games and it simply isn't getting as many games as the DS. Nintendo supported the DS quite well, Sony I don't feel have given the PSP adequate support. Sony have left it all to Capcom, Square Enix, Namco and Konami...

There is no excuse for the Gran Turismo PSP game to have not been released ages ago...

True, but then thats alot of unpopular games. Only a few psp games gave reached the same momentum as NDS games have gotten. Also remember psp hardware still sells briskly. People have to playing some games on it.
 

RpgN

Junior Member
Lightning said:
If piracy was what was hurting PSP software, why is Monster Hunter unaffected? Why was Crisis Core FFVII unaffected?

I think what's hurting PSP is the lack of popular games and it simply isn't getting as many games as the DS. Nintendo supported the DS quite well, Sony I don't feel have given the PSP adequate support. Sony have left it all to Capcom, Square Enix, Namco and Konami...

There is no excuse for the Gran Turismo PSP game to have not been released ages ago...

ding ding ding! We have a winner! No, I'm serious. That's what I was trying to say.

Lyre, what does the ps2 have to do with the psp? Yes, the ps2 could have been used for movies and music, but that wasn't ps2's main selling point and it's not portable.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
RpgN said:
ding ding ding! We have a winner! No, I'm serious. That's what I was trying to say.

Lyre, what does the ps2 have to do with the psp? Yes, the ps2 could have been used for movies and music, but that wasn't ps2's main selling point and it's not portable.

So it sells as a media device. I'm sure third parties are thrilled that their games dont sell cause at least you can store movies on your PSP
 

lyre

Member
The PS2, like the PSP, was also a highly looked forward to Sony hardware which not only plays games but also has media functions. And the PS2's capabilities as a DVD player was a selling point for the machine (hello Matrix DVD?!) especially during it's initial gaming drought.

And being portable or not is irrelevant in this discussion. The PS2 is a multi-media device compared to it's competition, the Cube just like the PSP is a multi-media device compared to it's competition, the DS.

There is really no excuses that the PSP is faltering so badly compared to its predecessors, especially when they were unquestionably runaway successes.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Lightning said:
If piracy was what was hurting PSP software, why is Monster Hunter unaffected? Why was Crisis Core FFVII unaffected?

Isn't that like saying:

If piracy was what was hurting PC software, why is [Insert any Blizzard title here] unaffected? Why was [Insert any good-selling PC title here, such as Guild Wars or Stardock titles] unaffected?

Doesn't hold up well when you translate it to a field we know is being hurt by piracy. Maybe certain titles just have more appeal, and can sell in desperate times? Piracy wasn't what killed the N64, so I don't think it is the only thing hardware makers have to worry about.
 

Grecco

Member
Lightning said:
If piracy was what was hurting PSP software, why is Monster Hunter unaffected? Why was Crisis Core FFVII unaffected?
..

Im pretty damn sure Crisis Core was affected.
 

izakq

Member
lyre said:
And being portable or not is irrelevant in this discussion. The PS2 is a multi-media device compared to it's competition, the Cube just like the PSP is a multi-media device compared to it's competition, the DS.

I'm probably wrong here, but I kind of always felt that the main difference between the PS2 and the PSP was how they were introduced. With the PS2, it was a gaming machine first that had all these extra features (DVD playback). While with the PSP, initially, it was being touted as the next Walkman, a multi-media machine first, where instead of gaming being the forfront as it was with the PS2, is was secondary.
 

Saitou

Banned
FOR FUCK'S SAKE PEOPLE


I SWEAR TO FUCKING ALLAH
STOP FUCKING ARGUING ABOUT PSP AND DS SALES AND PIRACY AND COMPARING THIRD PARTY SALES

I WILL BLOW MY FUCKING HEAD OFF WITH A SHOTGUN I SWEAR TO VISHNU

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Stumpokapow said:
I'm not smoking anything, but thanks for being rude. Let me try to recap what I've said to you:

Retail shrink overwhelmingly gets sold in a secondary or pawn market. If your store experienced more PSP shrink than DS shrink, then the only conclusion you can draw is that the PSP has a higher value in secondary/pawn markets or that there's a bigger demand for secondary/pawned PSPs than DSs. Teenagers are pretty much the one exception to this rule.

This applies across all sectors of retail, including things you might think it would not apply to. Supermarkets regularly experience food shrink, for example. One might assume that food is not resold, but it often is through informal person-person sales. The biggest example in the food industry is the theft of meat and cheese that are then resold to businesses like pizza stores.

Your original post basically boiled down to "More PSPs are stolen [at your store], and pirates are thieves.", inviting readers to draw a conclusion about PSP piracy. This is not a conclusion that can be drawn, because the thief that steals the product is not the likely user of the product they steal.

What you COULD conclude is that more PSPs being stolen means that more people are willing to buy pawned PSPs or person-person sold PSPs in your town or area. This could suggest that people want PSPs but only for a lower price; it could suggest that pirates are scammer scum. It could suggest nothing at all.
Whatever you say buddy.

I think I know a little bit more on this subject than you do. You're silly little argument was completely unneeded. You put words into my mouth, contradict yourself and then conceded the only point I was looking to make. You're best comeback would have been to discredit everything I posted as anecdotal. Instead, you set off to be the smartest-man-in-the-thread, but failed to consider if there was any information you might be lacking. When emphasizing that teenagers are an exemption to your rule, did you ever once stop and consider who the subjects on tape and the subjects who I have arrested in these cases might have been?

Again, my only point was to demonstrate that there is uneven distribution between the systems. That is not to say that people who steal also pirate, but that concept of uneven distribution can be applied to pirating as well.
 

Christine

Member
How much does it matter? That is, how useful would it be to know what proportion of the observed discrepancy between DS and PSP software is due to piracy rather than factors xyz?
 

lyre

Member
izakq said:
I'm probably wrong here, but I kind of always felt that the main difference between the PS2 and the PSP was how they were introduced. With the PS2, it was a gaming machine first that had all these extra features (DVD playback). While with the PSP, initially, it was being touted as the next Walkman, a multi-media machine first, where instead of gaming being the forfront as it was with the PS2, is was secondary.
That is may probably be the case. Though that still doesn't explain why software is so abysmal (in comparison to the competition), afterall, it carries the popular Playstation name, which is something that has a strong connection with games. Stupid Sony perhaps?

However, since I'm not an expert in sales-age, I should probably bow out of this discussion.

Saitou said:
FOR FUCK'S SAKE PEOPLE


I SWEAR TO FUCKING ALLAH
STOP FUCKING ARGUING ABOUT PSP AND DS SALES AND PIRACY AND COMPARING THIRD PARTY SALES

I WILL BLOW MY FUCKING HEAD OFF WITH A SHOTGUN I SWEAR TO VISHNU

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
/me hands you a loaded multi-armed rifle

Buddha and Jesus Christ would be proud.
 

justchris

Member
Not to take either side in this, but I can actually see a way that piracy would have a greater affect on PSP than on DS.

Because the PSP has functions other than as a gaming device, it's possible a lot of people choose to purchase it specifically for pirating games, as well as other content. It presents a lot of ease of use, since you can have your games, your music and your movies all on the same device. So you have a contingent of people who might be buying the PSP specifically with piracy, on all levels, in mind. Then you might have people who buy it for the media functions, and then, because it's so easy to pirate games, they go ahead and download a few games onto a memory card as well. (This is sort of a backfire of what Sony originally intended, convince people to buy it as a media player, and since they have the device, they might as well buy games for it, too...but, since it's so easy to pirate, why should I buy these games?)

Whereas with the DS, it has such a broad demographic, the people who actually purchase a DS with the intention to pirate games is only a small portion of that demographic. Then you have an additional portion that will come across the means to pirate and run with it.

Of course, this doesn't explain Stumpokapow's central point, which is why this would affect lower tier games on the PSP less than it's affecting higher tier games. The thing is, we don't know that it isn't. It's entirely possible that MHP2 would have sold 3+ million by now if not for piracy.

On the other hand, one of the things about easy piracy is that people who otherwise wouldn't be interested in something (for instance, people who bought psp as a device other than for games) might be willing to try that something if they can do so for free. So it's entirely possible there are a lot of PSP owners who aren't gamers, and generally don't care for games, who pirate PSP games just because it is so easy. This is less likely to be the case with the DS simply because it doesn't really do anything but play games.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
JJConrad said:
I think I know a little bit more on this subject than you do. You're silly little argument was completely unneeded. You put words into my mouth, contradict yourself and then conceded the only point I was looking to make.

I have no idea if you know more or less than me about retail shrink. Most of my experience in the area has been studying urban poverty and looking at theft from that angle, and absolutely every study of the subject I've read (although admittedly most of them have been city-level studies rather than international ones) has suggested that retail shrink, across all sectors of retail, largely goes to the secondary market.

Do you have some evidence to suggest otherwise? I'd be happy to read it because it relates to a minor research interest of mine.

I also did not concede the point I thought you were making. I simply conceded that while your premises did not lead to your conclusion directly, they did lead to a situation that could lead to your conclusion.

You're best comeback would have been to discredit everything I posted as anecdotal. Instead, you set off to be the smartest-man-in-the-thread, but failed to consider if there was any information you might be lacking.

I didn't set out to be the "smartest-man-in-the-thread". You're really insulting right now and in your previous post to me. I simply suggested that the conclusion that I inferred you were presenting was unsupported by your evidence. I didn't get rude with you or ask what you were smoking when you posted it.

I didn't accuse your evidence of being anecdotal because I operated on the assumption that the "more PSPs stolen than DSs stolen" argument you mentioned was true, and felt that even making that assumption, other arguments about piracy were not merited.

When emphasizing that teenagers are an exemption to your rule, did you ever once stop and consider who the subjects on tape and the subjects who I have arrested in these cases might have been?

I sure did consider it, but I didn't consider it to be relevant since teens are amongst a minority in terms of shoplifting across all sectors of retail except clothing. Whether the individuals that stole those particular items were teenagers or not, I made no assumption.

Again, my only point was to demonstrate that there is uneven distribution between the systems. That is not to say that people who steal also pirate, but that concept of uneven distribution can be applied to pirating as well.

This is not the point I assumed you were making. I assumed the point was to draw a comparison between thieves and pirates and use your experience with thieves to conclude something about pirates... since the conversation was about piracy rather than loss prevention.
 

Lightning

Banned
Minsc said:
Isn't that like saying:

If piracy was what was hurting PC software, why is [Insert any Blizzard title here] unaffected? Why was [Insert any good-selling PC title here, such as Guild Wars or Stardock titles] unaffected?

Doesn't hold up well when you translate it to a field we know is being hurt by piracy. Maybe certain titles just have more appeal, and can sell in desperate times? Piracy wasn't what killed the N64, so I don't think it is the only thing hardware makers have to worry about.
Don't Blizzard games require online fees each month? That would greatly affect sales if you cannot play online. Pirating would be a waste of time.

That wasn't really my point anyway. My point is that the biggest released PSP titles have sold. The PSP just hasn't received the DQ spin off games, a Pokemon type game, a super mario type game etc... that would really push systems sales. You see, Nintendo released all their big guns on the DS and really pushed it, Sony did not do the same for the PSP and therefore the DS has sold overall a lot better in both software and hardware.


Grecco said:
Im pretty damn sure Crisis Core was affected.
What makes you think this? It sold exceptionally well for a spin-off game.
 

Saitou

Banned
Cheesemeister said:
Discussing factors that impact sales and comparing sales figures between platforms seems pretty salient in a sales thread.
Not like this.


/me hands you a loaded multi-armed rifle

Buddha and Jesus Christ would be proud.
gallery_29_2_61814.gif
 

Linkup

Member
PS2/PS3 Guitar Hero III - 3.000 (sold out at many shops)

I'm assuming it's a straight port of the US version, same songs and all. Jrock songs would be awesome or dlc for them. The Japanese obviously want more regardless.
 

CorwinB

Member
RpgN said:
You're forgetting one thing, the psp isn't only used for games unlike the nds. Hence why hardware is very high compared to the software.

Strange, I thought many of the monstruous DS SW sales didn't count because they were "non-games" ?

The psp can't be compared with other consoles/handhelds, because the situation is too different.

I'm sure this is very comforting to the 3rd party devs who invested a lot at first in their PSP offering only to see them met with disappointing sales, which ended in quite a few PSP->PS2 ports.

Not only does the psp have different functions, it's also sony's first handheld. The psp can be seen as a successful device the first to rival nintendo with handhelds.

Yep, nobody (and especially not Sony themselves) expected the PSP to do well. Everyone back then was convinced that the DS would end first, with the PSP far behind. God, I hate *retroactive* lowered expectations.

Phife Dawg, maybe I exaggerated with the psp being very successful, but it's not really horrible as some making it out to be.

Sorry, but no. Apart from a few very high profiles releases, the PSP SW situation is absolutely abysmal both in US and JP (the two territories for which we have serious numbers).
 

Jokeropia

Member
AnimeTheme said:
That depends on what platform they are on, but seriously, I think 3rd parties care a lot more about the 3rd party sales than 1st party sales on a Nintendo (something they can't really directly compete with) platform.
Let me rephrase the statement: The sales of third party A doesn't make third party B any happier than the sales of first party games. Maybe it's more useful for comparison purposes as it's hard to beat the by far most successful publisher in the world on their own home turf.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Stumpokapow said:
I have no idea if you know more or less than me about retail shrink. Most of my experience in the area has been studying urban poverty and looking at theft from that angle, and absolutely every study of the subject I've read (although admittedly most of them have been city-level studies rather than international ones) has suggested that retail shrink, across all sectors of retail, largely goes to the secondary market.

Do you have some evidence to suggest otherwise? I'd be happy to read it because it relates to a minor research interest of mine.

I also did not concede the point I thought you were making. I simply conceded that while your premises did not lead to your conclusion directly, they did lead to a situation that could lead to your conclusion.



I didn't set out to be the "smartest-man-in-the-thread". You're really insulting right now and in your previous post to me. I simply suggested that the conclusion that I inferred you were presenting was unsupported by your evidence. I didn't get rude with you or ask what you were smoking when you posted it.

I didn't accuse your evidence of being anecdotal because I operated on the assumption that the "more PSPs stolen than DSs stolen" argument you mentioned was true, and felt that even making that assumption, other arguments about piracy were not merited.



I sure did consider it, but I didn't consider it to be relevant since teens are amongst a minority in terms of shoplifting across all sectors of retail except clothing. Whether the individuals that stole those particular items were teenagers or not, I made no assumption.



This is not the point I assumed you were making. I assumed the point was to draw a comparison between thieves and pirates and use your experience with thieves to conclude something about pirates... since the conversation was about piracy rather than loss prevention.
I wasn't trying to be rude. The "WTF are you smoking," was brought about because when I asked why it makes sense that the PSP would be a greater target over the DS you go off about secondary markets as if I've never heard of them. You still haven't explained why the PSP would be more desirable to the secondary markets. You also had instances in your replies that I found to rather rude (whether on purpose or not) but it doesn't really bother me.

The biggest mistake (it looks like) that you made from your studies is that it failed to categorizes the type of thieves that exist and the reason they do so. The vast majority of all types of shortages do go into the black market, but that this because organized boosters operate on a very large scale. You factor them out and the reason for theft starts becoming more personal. Even then, professional shoplifters (those you steal to resell, but are not involved in any organization or ring) are smart enough to look for the easy score (soft target, easy turn around) over any particular item. Below that, you have your teenagers and those who almost always steal for personal use (themselves or friends). Their numbers are probably about the same as the other categories, but the amount, value and reoccurance of what they take is far less.

This is why there should have been no distinction between the DS and PSP in the example I gave. It was too small to be organized, they tend to steal in bulk. To a pro, the DS was the better hit. They're usually not dumb enough to take the risk on the PSP. But a stupid kid who just wanted a PSP to watch Family Guy would. You also might have noticed that Brain Age isn't exactly the type of game my homies would want to steal.
 
JJConrad, I don't think the minutiae of this back and forth you're having with Stumpokapow are really relevant in comparison to the basic issue that your core argument (more people physically steal PSPs implies that more people violate copyright to illegally copy and play PSP games) is, like, totally specious.

Minsc said:
Isn't that like saying:

If piracy was what was hurting PC software, why is [Insert any Blizzard title here] unaffected? Why was [Insert any good-selling PC title here, such as Guild Wars or Stardock titles] unaffected?

In general, I think it is like that; I tend to reject the argument that piracy is responsible for bad PC game sales as well, in favor of something more like what Stumpokapow is laying out for PSP (a bunch of different factors that combine into a "perfect storm.") But it's also worth noting that two of the three titles you mention have a network component that in and of itself eliminates a huge swath of potential piracy.

Askia47 said:
I read what you wrote on the past few pages and Its bothered me a bit. Consider the demographic as well for the PSP and DS and the ease of hacking them. While you pointed out that the DS has R4 units that are becoming more readily available, I don't think there as well known.

Stumpokapow went over this in detail above. The R4 is advertised and well-known in Japan; there's definitely no meaningful gap in terms of awareness of it vs. PSP CFW.

If your argument is instead that the DS is primarily owned by children/old people/whatever and therefore relatively immune to piracy, I... really don't think that argument holds up with the specific software titles that have succeeded on the DS platform.
 

lyre

Member
CorwinB said:
Yep, nobody (and especially not Sony themselves) expected the PSP to do well. Everyone back then was convinced that the DS would end first, with the PSP far behind. God, I hate *retroactive* lowered expectations.
lyre said:
:lol lol. Gaming Ghetto(c) get steamrolled AGAIN!:lol
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