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'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
This. A thousand times.

Black/white dichotomy never had anything to do with racism. White as a *color* represents good and hope. Black as a *color* represents evil and despair. Depicting a vilains with brown skins have nothing to do with racism: this is basically iconography, nothing more.

God, what's next: stop buying black clothes when you're fat???

And we as a culture don't wear anything that can be represented by colour also? We don't wear icons ourselves? It has to be skin based? You want to reduce skin colour and race to just icons?

Do you guys read what you write?
 

CryptiK

Member
This seems pretty exclusive to Japan and the rest of Asia these days. I always thought Lana and Cia were based on yin and yang.
 
okay, but then fairskinned princess, dark desert thief gannon, midna the exotic princess from darkland or whatever...like none of that pattern troubles you a bit?

Well Midna is blue...so I'm not sure she's revelant to the discussion really and fair skinned princess is simply Nintendo keeping Zelda looking 99% the same. Ganondorf and the Gerudos have drastically improved since WW. Not to mention even as far back as in OOT, Ganondorf was a standout as a Gerudo. You literally work with Nabooru, one of the most respected Gerudo, to undermine him. Not to mention you're only imprisoned and attacked for being a male, not because they're evil or anything. In WW he's the one who's attempting to destroy Hyrule. It's never implied this was the wish of all Gerudo. In BOTW they aren't simply desert thieves anymore, so I don't see a problem with the trend they've taken

Isn't the pic i posted a character that is unmistakably recognizable as Zelda?

Why do you keep asking me? Do you think I have a private hotline with Miyamoto and Aonuma? Like I'm the key to Zelda being able to look different? I'm telling you how Nintendo apparently sees it. Whether you agree or not is entirely up to you
 

nOoblet16

Member
The dark coloured villains atleast in fantasy settings is due to the association that light = good and dark = bad. Now that association has existed since forever in every culture, even before the concept of race as we know it today existed.

Making brown middle eastern people the villains though is bad.
 

Fliesen

Member
Well Midna is blue...so I'm not sure she's revelant to the discussion really and fair skinned princess is simply Nintendo keeping Zelda looking 99% the same. Ganondorf and the Gerudos have drastically improved since WW. In BOTW they aren't simply desert thieves anymore, so I don't see a problem with the trend they've taken



Why do you keep asking me? Do you think I have a private hotline with Miyamoto and Aonuma? Like I'm the key to Zelda being able to look different? I'm telling you how Nintendo apparently sees it. Whether you agree or not is entirely up to you

You're very willing to give your personal opinion on how the portrayal of Gerudos having improved, why are you so coy about telling me whether or not "tanned" Zelda is or is not closer to the 'general' appearance of Zelda than, say, BotW Zelda.
Because that's what your argument rests on: "Nintendo wants Zelda to always look somewhat the same".

And when someone shows me images of "tanned" WW Zelda and BotW zelda and tells me to point my finger at which of them is unmistakably "princess Zelda", i'd be much more confident pointing at the former than the latter.
 

kagamin

Member
Now that I think about it...
98de03f32f62897d91feed7a52c18bc4269612bb_hq.gif
 
You're very willing to give your personal opinion on how the portrayal of Gerudos having improved, why are you so coy about telling me whether or not "tanned" Zelda is or is not closer to the 'general' appearance of Zelda than, say, BotW Zelda.

Because I don't give a shit! Whether she's tanned, blond hair, brown haired, she generally looks the same to me. I'd be okay if she was another race even.

I don't know why you don't understand the very simple point I'm making that just because I think she looks close enough, doesn't mean the Zelda devs do. It's like you're trying to be annoying and call me out for a decision I have no part in making
 
okay, but then fairskinned princess, dark desert thief gannon, midna the exotic princess from darkland or whatever...like none of that pattern troubles you a bit?

...no? The only of of those that is worthy of discussion is tetra being white washed when she becomes a princess zelda. Maybe in context of alttp could you find question in Ganondorf being a desert thief but (when his race is never addressed). In oot the other members of ganondorf's race basically say he's a bad egg among their kind and they aide in your attempt to defeat him. In fact another member of the same race ends up joining the multi cultural coalition of sages who help to defeat him. I think we should give Nintendo credit for making the main antagonist of one of their biggest franchises a minority instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole to try and prove a pattern. There are far better examples of what you're trying to argue IrishNinja.
 

Fliesen

Member
Because I don't give a shit! Whether she's tanned, blond hair, brown haired, she generally looks the same to me. I'd be okay if she was another race even.

I don't know why you don't understand the very simple point I'm making that just because I think she looks close enough, doesn't mean the Zelda devs do. It's like you're trying to be annoying and call me out for a decision I have no part in making

I don't know why you'd get so defensive all of a sudden. I'm not calling you out, i wanted to hear your opinion. ... uhm, sorry?
A page ago, you were very eager to take part in the discussion, saying how Zelda always had a certain look, certain fixed elements to her design, and when being asked how one portrayal - even with the darker shade of her (white) skin not bleached away - would be closer to Zelda's "design language" than multiple others, you're like "I don't care, i don't know, it's their product, what's the point in discussing this".

None of us is Aonuma. Does that mean none of us should be discussing somewhat troublesome portrayals of characters?
 
I don't know why you'd get so defensive all of a sudden. I'm not calling you out, i wanted to hear your opinion. ... uhm, sorry?
A page ago, you were very eager to take part in the discussion, saying how Zelda always had a certain look, certain fixed elements to her design, and when being asked how one portrayal - even with the darker shade of her (white) skin not bleached away - would be closer to Zelda's "design language" than multiple others, you're like "I don't care, i don't know, it's their product, what's the point in discussing this".

None of us is Aonuma. Does that mean none of us should be discussing somewhat troublesome portrayals of characters?

I'm not getting defensive. You're just making nonsensical arguments, and either blatantly ignoring what I'm saying or incapable of understanding the extraordinarily simple point I'm making. Whether you or I believe tan skin still falls under Zelda's typical design language, Nintendo doesn't. There's nothing troublesome about maintaining an established character's appearance, assuming there wasn't anything problematic about it (and there isn't anything inherently problematic about a white skinned, blond haired princess).
 
But why change the skin color? Yeah, make Evil Ryu and Violent Ken wear black clothes, have red, demonic eyes, give them a crazy, psychotic expression, maybe give them an evil aura, and that type of thing. But why change their skin color on top of that when they go evil? Is that really necessary, when there are so many other ways to do so? That's what that is getting at--why change their skin color when they go evil, when it's the same exact character and there are so many other ways of showing that fall to evil.

Fair point. They could have just changed the clothes and accessories. Like keep the guy the same but just demonise him (red eyes, flaming hair etc), I understand.

I haven't played the game, but if the evil version comes from a different place, why couldn't they have a different skin colour. People have different skin colours around the world. If Ken comes from a hell realm it must sure be warm there, maybe he has darker skin.
 

Azoor

Member
How is reading the actual definitions, right from a dictionary, "subjective"?

Because when people say Black they don't necessarily mean the dictionary definition of black which means evil, nor that they assigned black people that label because of that. That's what I meant.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Fair point. They could have just changed the clothes and accessories. Like keep the guy the same but just demonise him (red eyes, flaming hair etc), I understand.

I haven't played the game, but if the evil version comes from a different place, why couldn't they have a different skin colour. People have different skin colours around the world. If Ken comes from a hell realm it must sure be warm there, maybe he has darker skin.

they're sprite recolors
 
No matter how much people want to complain about issues like this, ultimately, it's up to developers to do as they please, and they have every right to design a game how they see fit. Whether it is about not enough female heroines in games, or about female characters in games being oversexualized, or not enough gay characters in games, it still comes down to the fact that a dev is free to do what they want. The real solution is to get into the game development industry and become the change you want to happen. I never understand some of the outrage or annoyance some people feel in regard to these things of they're not willing to go further than simply make a complain thread on an Internet forum. Its not enough. You know what I mean? If im off base please correct me. Not trying to start fires or anything.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
No matter how much people want to complain about issues like this, ultimately, it's up to developers to do as they please, and they have every right to design a game how they see fit. Whether it is about not enough female heroines in games, or about female characters in games being oversexualized, or not enough gay characters in games, it still comes down to the fact that a dev is free to do what they want. The real solution is to get into the game development industry and become the change you want to happen. I never understand some of the outrage or annoyance some people feel in regard to these things of they're not willing to go further than simply make a complain thread on an Internet forum. Its not enough. You know what I mean? If im off base please correct me. Not trying to start fires or anything.

I don't know why people default to this argument all the time. Why act as if there is no such thing as criticism from the audience, both from the general audience and professional critics? There are plenty of film/book/art/whatever critics that aren't professional creators themselves but are very well respected for their opinions. Why do we pretend that audience criticism doesn't matter? Do you think creators don't consider the feedback themselves? If you think that all creators work in their isolated worldview i can tell that you have never done anything creative professionally in your life.

I make my career as a designer and i can tell you that i would be a much poorer designer if i don't consider criticism not only from my peers, but also my employers and audience. I don't close my ears and go "lalalala" because i care about what i do and want to improve.

We are all informed by our surroundings. If i want to release my work to my surroundings i damn well better listen to them.
 
I don't know why people default to this argument all the time. Why act as if there is no such thing as criticism from the audience, both from the general audience and professional critics? There are plenty of film/book/art/whatever critics that aren't professional creators themselves but are very well respected for their opinions. Why do we a like audience criticism doesn't matter? Do you think creators don't consider the feedback themselves? If you think that all creators work in their isolated worldview i can tell that you have never done anything creative professionally in your life.

I make my career as a designer and i can tell you that i would be a much poorer designer if i don't consider criticism not only from my peers, but also my employers and audience. I don't close my ears and go "lalalala" because i care about what i do and want to improve.

We are all informed by our surroundings. If i want to release my work to my surroundings i damn well better listen to them.
Thats fair but in the end you still want to create something that you're passionate about, something that is your vision and not someone elses. i suspect that in the end that is what you will do with the end result. To the OP, if he/she wants less dark skinned villains then go make it happen. Criticism is good but a blanket statement that sounds more like whining than valid criticism doesn't seem like a good method to persuade developers/ designers.
 

JackelZXA

Member
Considering the target is mainly japanese games, I don't think the original tweet or this thread will really reach anyone who has any impact on what's being complained about. A bunch of westerners agreeing on something or arguing about it doesn't go in any direction at all other than back at themselves. Very little of this sort of thing goes overseas.
 

Nottle

Member
I think I'm on the Xavier's side but with a few points of contention. It is pretty messed up to assume dark skin makes someone bad. Take RE5. The lighter skin Sheva is good and pretty much all of the enemies have darker more African looks. Though I can't also ignore that the game also has an African BSAA team who are good guys. Josh Stone and a couple other generic soldiers who happen to be pretty dark skinned.

The Mulan example is pretty clear.

Now part of me thinks that I am also ok with this trope at times. It leads to some badass looking character designs. I like Ganon as that dark shade of green. I think personally I recognize a trope as just a visual cue and not reality.

I would like to see more dark skinned protagonists. Not everyone has to be "healthy peach" colored.

Also I want to bring attention to inverse tropes: albinos are evil and Deathly Pallor. Many works of fiction portray extremely white skin as unnatural and evil. So many jrpgs feature extremely light skinned villains. White skin is used to remind the viewer of death and sickness.
 

Budi

Member
It really is complicated from how I see it. The intention and reasoning for these darker skinned villains aren't atleast usually because POC would be considered evil (I would hope). There are other factors like the mentioned night vs day, religious texts. And it's not just dark skin that is used for villains, it also traditionally shows in black clothing. Like Sephiroth, Palpatine, Maleficent, heck even Cobra Kai in Karate Kid. Color black is associated with darkness, decay, corruption and death. In many cultures it's a custom to wear black at funerals.

Now can these darker skinned villains be associated with people of color, well easily as we can see in this thread. And it comes even more problematic when kids who don't have or understand the full context and reasoning behind it. It can enforce harmful stereotypes and shape the world view of people even subconsciously. I don't have a solution to fixing it, other than stop doing it. But is that the right solution either if the problem stems from misconception. In the current climate, it could be almost necessary. It wouldn't remove the problems and difficulties people face because of their skin color. But in long term it could help to alleviate it.
 
Considering the target is mainly japanese games, I don't think the original tweet or this thread will really reach anyone who has any impact on what's being complained about. A bunch of westerners agreeing on something or arguing about it doesn't go in any direction at all other than back at themselves. Very little of this sort of thing goes overseas.
That doesn't make the discussion pointless, though.
Or it's as pointless as any discussion on GAF about the Japanese industry.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I mean yeah, i want to create things i love, but i ain't perfect. I'd be lying if i said i understood every viewpoint from my audience, and if learn about a new facet i, and the creators that i reject, will make it part of our consideration when we make future works. It's not like we even have to kowtow entirely to it, but at least we are better informed on it and judge if we should change or remain the same.

Our reality is constantly changing, and unless you're going for a specific thing remaining static isn't what most people do.
 

JackelZXA

Member
Compared to the rest of the lions, yes.

55lNRtN.jpg

I'd say scar is debatable. His pale scar and pale mouth area...in some ways it can be kind of like a pale skinned man wearing dark robes (the mane being like a cloak, and the red areas of his face being closer to the forehead than the other half of the face)


That doesn't make the discussion pointless, though.
Or it's as pointless as any discussion on GAF about the Japanese industry.

Yeah but I mean....I guess they are kind of pointless aren't they? Not as a negative but just from an objective standpoint. You could say discussions on indie games or western games have more of an impact because the creators are more likely to see those, but complaints about nintendo games just....I don't see anywhere for those to go other than, as I said, back at us. As long as things don't become nasty then there's no harm no foul.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
A good enough reason to get rid of the dumb light vs dark trope.

This. A thousand times.

Black/white dichotomy never had anything to do with racism. White as a *color* represents good and hope. Black as a *color* represents evil and despair. Depicting a vilains with brown skins have nothing to do with racism: this is basically iconography, nothing more.

God, what's next: stop buying black clothes when you're fat???

Why the hell does white have to represent good and black represent bad? where did that start? Why do we have to stick to it?

It's a ridiculously stupid convention that has a bunch of shitty connotation. there's literally no reason to stick to it beyond "its it's just how it is" which is pretty creatively vapid.
 

JackelZXA

Member
A good enough reason to get rid of the dumb light vs dark trope.



Why the hell does white have to represent good and black represent bad? where did that start? Why do we have to stick to it?

It's a ridiculously stupid convention that has a bunch of shitty connotation. there's literally no reason to stick to it beyond "its it's just how it is" which is pretty creatively vapid.

Thinking about it, I'd probably say a very likely starting point would be comparing day to night. Day is light and you can generally see everything so you feel safe, and night is dark and full of terrors. (Using light to see through the dark being a common thing)

Some of the ways these words got attributed to other things could be seen as pretty bogus though.
 

Grinchy

Banned
I wonder if the people who complain about this will have kids one day. Imagine those kids coming to them saying they want a night light because they're scared of the dark, so the parents ground them for being racist.
 

Skyzard

Banned
I wonder if the people who complain about this will have kids one day. Imagine those kids coming to them saying they want a night light because they're scared of the dark, so the parents ground them for being racist.

This is about skin tones, not a lack of visibility.

Dark = evil is dumb as fuck, including the concept of light vs dark.


--I actually returned Final Fantasy III because of how much it leaned on that. It's a different thing from skin colour but still feels linked to me.
 
Yeah I agree with the title, it's more than a little out of date. In North America anyway I remember seeing something on TV where the whole black = evil stereotype came from old westerns and didn't really exist before that. Black hat = bad, white hat = good. I'm not quite sure why other parts of the world associate that with skin tone. That's a bit weird. I think in things like fighting games it's just an easy way to distinguish between two different but similar characters. M. Bison is very white after all, and he's the most evil person in Street Fighter. It seems like an idea based on a relic of the past that people don't really think about anymore, "that's just how it is". Maybe they should, but I don't think in this day and age there are actually any sinister undertones to it.

That being said, changing things up would be for the better. As the impression that dark skin = evil still remains regardless. At face value, that is not a good thing.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Thinking about it, I'd probably say a very likely starting point would be comparing day to night. Day is light and you can generally see everything so you feel safe, and night is dark and full of terrors. (Using light to see through the dark being a common thing)

Some of the ways these words got attributed to other things could be seen as pretty bogus though.

I think that's the obvious, yes. But that's the point, it's /so/ obvious, and done, and there's literally no reason to use it as basis for your fiction any more beyond "that's how it is".

I wonder if the people who complain about this will have kids one day. Imagine those kids coming to them saying they want a night light because they're scared of the dark, so the parents ground them for being racist.

What a ridiculous comment.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I wonder if the people who complain about this will have kids one day. Imagine those kids coming to them saying they want a night light because they're scared of the dark, so the parents ground them for being racist.

"Oh honey, it's alright to be scared, because his skin is dark."

Do you realise how silly this equivalency is?
 

Yado

Member
Thats fair but in the end you still want to create something that you're passionate about, something that is your vision and not someone elses. i suspect that in the end that is what you will do with the end result. To the OP, if he/she wants less dark skinned villains then go make it happen. Criticism is good but a blanket statement that sounds more like whining than valid criticism doesn't seem like a good method to persuade developers/ designers.

Do you tell people to go make their own game when you see threads about 30 fps, DLC, graphical fidelity etc? Those are reliant on the developer's vision too right? There are very few threads on Neogaf that will have an impact on the way developers make their games, this is no different. What else is this forum for if not discussion?
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Thats fair but in the end you still want to create something that you're passionate about, something that is your vision and not someone elses. i suspect that in the end that is what you will do with the end result. To the OP, if he/she wants less dark skinned villains then go make it happen. Criticism is good but a blanket statement that sounds more like whining than valid criticism doesn't seem like a good method to persuade developers/ designers.
You understand what forums are for, right?
 
I could be very wrong, and I've been google searching a lot of movies and games I could think of to make sure I wasn't off, but... dark = evil, white = pure is a very common trope, however dark skin = evil, white skin = pure doesn't really seem to be more of (or even as much of) a trope as white skin = evil. I've gone through most popular games released in the last couple years as well as most famous movies and there really wasn't much that could back that claim up.

Mind you, I'm not saying that if that were the case, that it'd be OK. It's just I couldn't seem to notice that pattern at all? Racial issues are a massive issue indeed, but in this case I can't see it, I guess.
This issue the OP brings up isn't there. Can representation be better?. 100% not even a question, it needs to be better.
But is there some narrative where dark skin = African American = evil? No, there isn't.
And before anyone brings that stupid fucking doll test back up, have a child you know do the doll test. I guarantee it'll be different. It comes down to parenting as well. If your child believes the doll of the opposite race is 'evil', you're an awful parent.
 
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