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Love Boat 2 [Mafia] |OT| Electric Boogalove

F

Fireblend

Banned
Ty4on said:
But he had like 6 posts when you'd made that one
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And with those 6 posts I had Vere against the ropes. #2good4u
franconp said:
I don't see the point to know what is everyone talking in theirs chats. It's not like someone is holding info keeping it secret in their own chats.
Click to expand...
It is a very meta discussion that I didn't anticipate would get so much traction, at this point I might drop it though I still want to get Sophia's take. I know the game is full of really good players that will not withhold useful info from town. I'm more worried about scum hiding behind the sick reads and "developing thoughts" that only exist in their non-existing lover chats, and the not-so veteran players that will use it as a filter in a game where I appreciate the lack of filters.
 
S

Sophia

Member
Fireblend said:
This being my first love boat game, I'm actually at a bit of a loss about what sort of use one can give to a lovers chat in this game and I'd like to ask you for advice. Let's ignore PR and night action coordination, plus anything that you think would endanger your role's secrecy. What are you writing down on that chat that is better suited for there than here? Maybe it's a matter of different playstyles, but unless you're planning some crazy coordinated gambit, I can't think of anything I'd rather post on a thread only Exodu5 (who's a relatively inactive poster) has access to, when I already have most of the info I would ever need from someone I'm sharing a chat with like their alignment and role, specially at this stage in the game. As someone with no motives other than town's, what's so hot about writing down my thoughts on other players anywhere else than here?

When you say "I really hope these two are (...) making use of of their lovers chat.", what do you mean by that? What do you think an Exodus-Fireblend chat should look like right now?

If anyone else wants to answer that question, I'm all ears btw.
Click to expand...

Ideally, I'd hope you'd be chatting and bouncing stuff off each other. Your partner is unique in that you know their alignment, which means you can trust any reads they give you. To give you an example without names: Me and Crimson are discussing a pair of players right now, one of whom we don't feel too good about and would probably be a scum read on their own, but the other I'm not quite feeling as scum yet. We're also bouncing reads off each other so we're not posting our dumbest thoughts in the thread and making ourselves look too silly. Likewise, we can also use it to take notes, so that when the other wakes up they don't have to do as much catching up (And you can be sure I'll link him this post and discussion!)

When the time comes, we'll no doubt coordinate who our final votes will be on too.

Even if you're ordinary, you can get a lot of use out of your chat. I did so in Love Boat 1 as an ordinary with Ty4on. Given that you two admitted you were going to be out for a bit, you could use your lovers chat to take notes of things when you quickly glance the thread over, perhaps? And as I mentioned above, scum in Love Boat 1 didn't have a private chat. That may or may not be the case here, but there is precedent for it, so you should be at least slightly skeptical of anyone not making extensive use of it.

Maybe it's a matter of different playing styles, but at least that's my thought on it.
 
K

kingkitty

Member
kingkitty said:
On page 7, Ty4on defending some of his shitposts by giving "translation" to various buttposts is maybe a little weird and defensive. Hey, people shitpost. Everyone does it and everyone loves it. But I don't know if I've seen someone defend their buttposts the way Typhoon did.

Also I think Verelios went at Sorian for seemingly going to bat for Sophcrimsonfiafist. But I gotta wonder that if Sorian was on the same scum squad as those pair, he'd be this obvious in terms of defending scummates.
Click to expand...

before I sleep I guess for now I'll switch my vote to

vote: Ty4on

For the minor reason already stated, let him be thrown into a volcano...along with his teammate I guess. Vote could change in the future, etc etc. There's still a lot of pairs I haven't really felt much towards, whether it's because it's a lot of people, or they're on vacation or on trains, or whatever.

On the topic of private chat, obviously anything important or even semi worthwhile nonshitpost analysis should be shared publicly in some way. Unless it's part of a great, epic gambit, which then keep it secret.
 
F

flatearthpandas

Member
kitsunelaine said:
there are other things you could share privately >.o
Click to expand...
People are watching!
Fireblend said:
And with those 6 posts I had Vere against the ropes. #2good4u

It is a very meta discussion that I didn't anticipate would get so much traction, at this point I might drop it though I still want to get Sophia's take. I know the game is full of really good players that will not withhold useful info from town. I'm more worried about scum hiding behind the sick reads and "developing thoughts" that only exist in their non-existing lover chats, and the not-so veteran players that will use it as a filter in a game where I appreciate the lack of filters.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. Kind of goes against what you said earlier actually.
Fireblend said:
I'm sure scum can appreciate everyone's thoughts being scattered in ~16 different threads with different degrees of visibility, and having the ones people consider "risky" be in the ones with the least visibility, rather than having all of them in the main one where everyone can see them.
Click to expand...
I think it all boils down the same. Everyone needs to participate in the main chat, never saying anything except that you're talking with your lover exclusively or waiting to chat with your lover is not good.

...

Karkador.

Starsketch
But also saying nothing is no good. What say you, star?
 
K

kingkitty

Member
CrimsonFist said:
Don't think Kitty ever responded to my disagreement with his argument against me.
Click to expand...

Well it boiled down to me thinking it's weird you didn't think Ty4on was making a joke despite participating in your own joke post on that same page. And you saying you weren't sure he was making a joke. And in retort I would say "I think it's weird you weren't sure, just as it'd be weird someone wouldn't be sure you rng vote against Trigger was a joke or not". And then I guess we'd continue to disagree, but I'd continue to think it was something worthwhile (along with what I said about Sophia) to vote on in the early moments of Day 1.

Cat nap time.
 
F

Fireblend

Banned
Sophia said:
Ideally, I'd...
(...)
Maybe it's a matter of different playing styles, but at least that's my thought on it.
Click to expand...
Thanks. No revelations in there, but I think it does come down to playstyle and the fact that you're both active. Maybe once Exodu5 has more time to play I'll see the use of having a private chat for "idea bouncing" rather than just PR/Night Action/Vote coordination which is purely mechanic-driven. Also I didn't know LB1 didn't have a chat for scum, thanks (even if that makes me even more suspicious of people casually mentioning their chat use :p)
flatearthpandas said:
Hmmm. Kind of goes against what you said earlier actually.
Click to expand...
I see how you could say that, but it's not really that contradicting IMO, I'm just wary of how pro-town the secret chats are. I don't want people being more conservative here with their reads because they're using the chat as a filter, or self-conscious that a bad "play" may doom not only themselves but their partner, or overly critical of their partner because they could doom them instead. Obviously veteran players would be less likely to suffer from those scenarios.

Anyway, this discussion has run its course. I wanted to see if people also found odd that Sophia has repeatedly mentioned using their chat extensively but that is obviously not the case and now this is less about my perception of some players and more about mechanics which is not good.

...

I don't have anything to follow this up with though. Only a quick comment that I just now realized how small of a game this is with effectively only 15 roles in it. Darryl-nin feel very absent, from looking at the roster.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
Verelios said:
Probably best to direct the question to Darryl.
Click to expand...

WhereAreMahDragonz said:
Darryl where is my side chick
Click to expand...

I have no clue where Nin is. I think he is just out for a day or two and will catch up.

Sorian said:
Town chats are two people and scum chat is likely 6-8 people. That sequencing of events was very clearly set by only two people being in contact so unless those two are just sitting in scum chat by themselves right now then it's clear what's what.

Also, samurai, at least, feels like someone who is looking for validation in play so far. Their partner being new too means they can't really get the validation there since neither knows what is good and what is bad. Other players backing them up would be giving that validation behind the scenes which I'm not seeing here.
Click to expand...

Sorian said:
Actually, this is the town tell:





They were literally just talking about this in their private chat.
Click to expand...

These posts have stood out to me the most. I don't think the confident tone Sorian is using here feels appropriate for a townie. I think a paranoid townie would be much more hesitant at vouching for others and wouldn't use language like 'very clearly'.

Vote: Sorian
 
S

Sophia

Member
Darryl said:
These posts have stood out to me the most. I don't think the confident tone Sorian is using here feels appropriate for a townie. I think a paranoid townie would be much more hesitant at vouching for others and wouldn't use language like 'very clearly'.

Vote: Sorian
Click to expand...

How do you feel about the two posts that Sorian called a town tell then? Like, do you think it's actually a town tell?
 
S

StarSketch

Banned
flatearthpandas said:
People are watching!

Hmmm. Kind of goes against what you said earlier actually.

I think it all boils down the same. Everyone needs to participate in the main chat, never saying anything except that you're talking with your lover exclusively or waiting to chat with your lover is not good.

...

Karkador.

Starsketch
But also saying nothing is no good. What say you, star?
Click to expand...

Well, my partner is MIA, so I can't really say we've been using our couple chat.

But yeah, as usual everything I want to say has been said by someone else.

People need to post in the main chat, since you know. This is Mafia, and half of it is people reading one another, and you can't get read if you don't post where people can see (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm a hypocrite.)
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Ourobolus said:
I don't know why people are reading that much into my Sophia vote. I voted an entire 48 minutes after the game started. Now I know I have some sick reads, but even that's a bit premature.

That said, since then they still seem a little off to me.

TsuXna is completely absent and Flush is...well Flush seems ok to me so far. Not ringing any bells for me just yet.

Trigger is also absent, but Ty also seems ok so far.

Sorian loves to bring up my Sophia vote.

Right now I'm seriously considering if all four anime players are on the scum side.
Click to expand...

When was the last time I brought up your Sophia vote?

Way to alter history, A+ work.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Fireblend said:
I know Sophia and Crimson have alluded to using their chat extensively, Ouro just did and Ty4on also jokingly referred to Crimsophia's chat as probably "the only one with pregame chat on it", so I'd like them to talk about said use in a bit more in-depth way.

Example:
Click to expand...

The extent of mine and Fat's chat is gifs and me dropping random notes for review later.

We keep missing each other since game start for the most part.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Darryl said:
I have no clue where Nin is. I think he is just out for a day or two and will catch up.





These posts have stood out to me the most. I don't think the confident tone Sorian is using here feels appropriate for a townie. I think a paranoid townie would be much more hesitant at vouching for others and wouldn't use language like 'very clearly'.

Vote: Sorian
Click to expand...

"Paranoid" isn't a descriptor I'd ever use for myself in mafia.

Not going to toss away free reads for nothing.

Sophia asked the question anyway, do you not follow the logic of what I'm pointing out?
 
S

Sophia

Member
StarSketch said:
Well, my partner is MIA, so I can't really say we've been using our couple chat.

But yeah, as usual everything I want to say has been said by someone else.

People need to post in the main chat, since you know. This is Mafia, and half of it is people reading one another, and you can't get read if you don't post where people can see (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm a hypocrite.)
Click to expand...

Can't read one another if you only have three posts total too. :p
 
D

Darryl

Banned
Sophia said:
How do you feel about the two posts that Sorian called a town tell then? Like, do you think it's actually a town tell?
Click to expand...

Well I'm approaching the posts from a different angle because I was reading the thread in reverse and I saw Sorian's posts before I saw the posts themselves. Like I was unnerved by those Sorian posts because they felt like posts scum would make in reply to something from a townie, like to appear proactive, knowledgeable, or to earn cred by vouching. So I thought they felt townie from the beginning.

I think they'd feel townie to me if I saw them first I just don't think I can imagine myself staunchly vouching for it or even following the line of thought Sorian did.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Darryl said:
Well I'm approaching the posts from a different angle because I was reading the thread in reverse and I saw Sorian's posts before I saw the posts themselves. Like I was unnerved by those Sorian posts because they felt like posts scum would make in reply to something from a townie, like to appear proactive, knowledgeable, or to earn cred by vouching. So I thought they felt townie from the beginning.

I think they'd feel townie to me if I saw them first I just don't think I can imagine myself staunchly vouching for it or even following the line of thought Sorian did.
Click to expand...

How far back in reverse do you still have to go? How do you feel about me checking out with my early Crimson town read too?
 
S

Sophia

Member
Darryl said:
Well I'm approaching the posts from a different angle because I was reading the thread in reverse and I saw Sorian's posts before I saw the posts themselves. Like I was unnerved by those Sorian posts because they felt like posts scum would make in reply to something from a townie, like to appear proactive, knowledgeable, or to earn cred by vouching. So I thought they felt townie from the beginning.

I think they'd feel townie to me if I saw them first I just don't think I can imagine myself staunchly vouching for it or even following the line of thought Sorian did.
Click to expand...

It almost sounds like it's an emotional gut read to you. Hm... not sure I see it myself.
 
N

Natiko

Banned
Sophia said:
It almost sounds like it's an emotional gut read to you. Hm... not sure I see it myself.
Click to expand...
Personally while I never feel equipped to lean one way or the other on Sorian this early - I do feel equipped to say Sorian making statements like that doesn't read as out of the norm for him. Doesn't mean I view Sorian as anything but null currently though.
 
S

Sophia

Member
Natiko said:
Personally while I never feel equipped to lean one way or the other on Sorian this early - I do feel equipped to say Sorian making statements like that doesn't read as out of the norm for him. Doesn't mean I view Sorian as anything but null currently though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the statement seemed pretty standard too, which is why I was curious for Darryl's take on stuff because I didn't see too much when I first saw it.

StarSketch said:
True true...

Though I was saying reading people other than my partner since, you know we share alignment.
Click to expand...

Well, you're here. Penny for your thoughts on everything? :p
 
S

Sophia

Member
Natiko said:
anything*

Let's not get too crazy now Sophia, that'd be like asking for a game's worth of contributions with the rate Star posts lol
Click to expand...

I believe in her. She can do it!

kamenrideryessque3.gif
 
S

Sorian

Banned
I'm not intending to move my vote at the moment anyway since I'm just peeking in in between patients but catching up, I don't see a lot of new threads from where I was pulling. Kitsune and FEP are still posting without saying anything. Ouro is taking pot shots from 10 miles away and even brought me in on a non sense argument (though Kitty is at least pokin bears). Kark and Xbro still keep me unimpressed on what I was expecting to be more activity. And the Vere/Dragonz boat is still more of the same, want to toss Dragonz under but Vere has good posting habits.

To comment on Star, I can't be bothered with it since she'll hit all of 15 posts by day end anyway. Don't even know offhand who her partner is either and not switching the tab on mobile to check.
 
Y

YesNOnoNOYes

Member
DAY 1 CURRENT VOTE TALLY:

kitsunelaine & flatearthpandas (2)
Sorian 444
Ty4on 448

TsuXna & Royal_Flush (2)
Natiko 475
Nomadic Sparks 488

Fat4all & Sorian (2)
CrimsonFist 175
Darryl 659

CrimsonFist & Sophia (1)
Ourobolus 115
WhereAreMahDragonz 132 156
kingkitty 265 653

Muffin1611 & Samuraischnecke (1)
Dr. Worm 537

Trigger & Ty4on (1)
CrimsonFist 71 175
kingkitty 653

Ourobolus & kingkitty (1)
WhereAreMahDragonz 156
flatearthpandas 174 176
Sorian 194 444
flatearthpandas 619 654

StarSketch & SexyFish (1)
flatearthpandas 655

Verelios & WhereAreMahDragonz (1)
flatearthpandas 176 387
kitsunelaine 385

TheExodu5 & Fireblend (0): Dr. Worm 94 136, Ty4on 355 448

franconp & Dr. Worm (0): Dr. Worm 136 537, Muffin1611 178 413

Xbro & Karkador (0): flatearthpandas 387 619

No active vote for Day 1: Fat4all, Fireblend, franconp, Karkador, Muffin1611 (has previously voted), nin1000, Orb, Royal_Flush, Samuraischnecke, SexyFish, Sophia, StarSketch, TheExodu5, TheWorthyEdge, Trigger, TsuXna, Verelios, Xbro

Day 1 Postcount: CrimsonFist 25, Darryl 5, Dr. Worm 26, Fat4all 21, Fireblend 19, flatearthpandas 14, franconp 34, Karkador 9, kingkitty 10, kitsunelaine 32, Muffin1611 31, Natiko 33, nin1000 2, Nomadic Sparks 26, Orb 10, Ourobolus 42, Royal_Flush 7, Samuraischnecke 14, SexyFish 1, Sophia 42, Sorian 44, StarSketch 4, TheExodu5 2, TheWorthyEdge 7, Trigger 1, TsuXna 0, Ty4on 69, Verelios 20, WhereAreMahDragonz 50, Xbro 2


Day 1 ends:
bla_1501959600.png

Automated vote tally here

16 votes for majority
 
R

Royal_Flush

Member
When did using the term "potshot" become a thing here, btw? I had to google it when I first read it.

Natiko said:
That's not what I'm saying though. Sophia literally said "why should they respond to you when you've done the same". My point was that I had also called you and fep out but the same accusation could not be made to me. I was trying to argue against Sophia essentially giving you all a free pass. I don't think you should, and I'm not saying nomad should either. Obviously you can't see until after the game but I'm not in our private chat orchestrating his posts or votes. I don't expect him to be my third arm.
Click to expand...
Then I don't get your point at all. a) I didn't see Sophia giving us a free pass at all, just not focusing on us specifically and b) The key difference between nothing-posts and no posts is that nothing-posters for sure could have contributed if they wanted but chose not to; no-posters could just have been busy.

WhereAreMahDragonz said:
I get that, but it's like...I'm not going to tell you what's going on in our chat, and I don't think you would either if it was reversed, so why bring it up?

We all have a chat, with a lover, and it's private. I don't have to disclose anything about that if I don't want to, and even then I'd check with Vere first.

Just seems like kind of a weird focal point when we all know these things.
Click to expand...
That's probably the weirdest stance I've seen in this game so far. What harm does it do if you disclose your non-PR related discussions?


____

Maybe I'll find time for a more extensive look this evening. If not than on Saturday (very lucky day end time imo)
 
W

WhereAreMahDragonz

Banned
Royal_Flush said:
When did using the term "potshot" become a thing here, btw? I had to google it when I first read it.


Then I don't get your point at all. a) I didn't see Sophia giving us a free pass at all, just not focusing on us specifically and b) The key difference between nothing-posts and no posts is that nothing-posters for sure could have contributed if they wanted but chose not to; no-posters could just have been busy.


That's probably the weirdest stance I've seen in this game so far. What harm does it do if you disclose your non-PR related discussions?


____

Maybe I'll find time for a more extensive look this evening. If not than on Saturday (very lucky day end time imo)
Click to expand...

If I feel like it's worth sharing, I'll share it.

I trust Vere; he's my partner, shares my role and alignment, and we have the same goal. I don't trust any of you right now. That's the difference.
 
C

CrimsonFist

Member
Reading through everything, biggest standout would be Ouro's town read on Fire and Exodu5. Fire's posting picked up around that time although a lot moreso after that read, but I've been leaning slightly towards scum on Exodu5 for a while.

Don't think I've seen anything from Kitsune still outside of defending from Dragonz.

Trigger and Sexyfish both mia, Sexy is new and I don't think that's too atypical of Trigger, but showing up, saying that they're reading the thread and then disappearing again isn't great. Star mentioned that Sexyfish isn't posting in their private chat either, is the same true of Trigger Ty4on?
 
T

Ty4on

Member
CrimsonFist said:
Reading through everything, biggest standout would be Ouro's town read on Fire and Exodu5. Fire's posting picked up around that time although a lot moreso after that read, but I've been leaning slightly towards scum on Exodu5 for a while.

Don't think I've seen anything from Kitsune still outside of defending from Dragonz.

Trigger and Sexyfish both mia, Sexy is new and I don't think that's too atypical of Trigger, but showing up, saying that they're reading the thread and then disappearing again isn't great. Star mentioned that Sexyfish isn't posting in their private chat either, is the same true of Trigger Ty4on?
Click to expand...
We may get some Trigger posts...

What do you make of Ouro's read of Fire tho? I'm struck that I don't really understand it so I wanna go back and see if I can find the reason he might've thought that way. He didn't state it was a strong read, but it was in his top two.
 
T

Ty4on

Member
If you have anything indepth Crimson I'd love to read it too.
Really subject matter doesn't matter that much, but something you're invested in and don't mind sharing.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
SexyFish isn't new though?

Not brand new at least.

I need something new to happen

VOTE: Orb

This vote is actually for TWE more than anything (but I know how to read rules). He is creeping to that 10 post count but has stayed relatively free of all talk. I feel like his comments have had no weight because I skimmed right past them and I don't remember anyone really engaging him.

I was thinking about nin since the real OTP is nin/TWE but at least Darryl is doing work, I can't say I've noticed Orb much either but that makes more sense since I don't know him yet.
 
C

CrimsonFist

Member
Ty4on said:
We may get some Trigger posts...

What do you make of Ouro's read of Fire tho? I'm struck that I don't really understand it so I wanna go back and see if I can find the reason he might've thought that way. He didn't state it was a strong read, but it was in his top two.
Click to expand...

It's hard to take as an alignment tell, so I could chalk it up to a gut read, fire made one substantial post just before Ouro posted that read list which could have influenced it, but that post is just commenting on the same Kitsune/Dragonz discussion, and whilst it's not a bad post, it wouldn't have been enough to influence my reads when Fire had been a non presence up to that point.
 
C

CrimsonFist

Member
Basically I see no real justification for it at that point.

Although I feel like a lot of Ouro's behaviour has been a bit odd, need to reread his posts though.
 
T

Ty4on

Member
CrimsonFist said:
It's hard to take as an alignment tell, so I could chalk it up to a gut read, fire made one substantial post just before Ouro posted that read list which could have influenced it, but that post is just commenting on the same Kitsune/Dragonz discussion, and whilst it's not a bad post, it wouldn't have been enough to influence my reads when Fire had been a non presence up to that point.
Click to expand...
Hmm
I don't really agree. Scum struggle to make reads so they are sometimes mostly made up. Ouro doesn't seem to have much backing his Fire read yet put him as top two town for whatever reason.

Fire's large-ish post was not that long before Ouro's and iirc wasnt very alignment indicative. It's weird to make a read that quickly, it's usually colored by earlier interactions.
 
O

Ourobolus

Banned
Ty4on said:
Hmm
I don't really agree. Scum struggle to make reads so they are sometimes mostly made up. Ouro doesn't seem to have much backing his Fire read yet put him as top two town for whatever reason.

Fire's large-ish post was not that long before Ouro's and iirc wasnt very alignment indicative. It's weird to make a read that quickly, it's usually colored by earlier interactions.
Click to expand...
As you said it's not like he had a lot of posts to go through
 
T

Trigger

Member
I've got some opinions having read more of the thread. A few reads and opinions from just looking over the thread and going through some people's posts.

So with Darryl I'm getting a slight town read here. I don't find myself disagreeing with any of Darryl's posts. He's contributing some different opinions, but I can't say I fully agree with his take on Sorian's posts being too confident. Fat4All is a null read not necessarily for a lack of content, but because nothing has pushed my gut one way or the other. He's posting and asking questions. Leaning towards Fireblend being town as well. He was coaching Orb an being more proactive in post #610. I could see scum using this to look more townie, but strategically isn't better to just let newer players be indecisive if you're scum? The argument about lovers chat feels like genuine concern for people not sharing enough of their opinions. It's also the kind of stance that would draw unwanted attention for Mafia. Exodus is tied to Fireblend so they'll share my town read.

I'm getting townie vibes from the whole WAMD v Kits argument. It's a great centerpiece for people to comment on. If either of them get lynched we could get some alignment reads based off people's reactions. It could be a scum gambit to make either party look more town. It seems like people are less suspicious in general of them.

Other people have a lot more posts to sort through so it'll take more time for me to give an honest opinion of them.
 
C

CrimsonFist

Member
Ty4on said:
Hmm
I don't really agree. Scum struggle to make reads so they are sometimes mostly made up. Ouro doesn't seem to have much backing his Fire read yet put him as top two town for whatever reason.

Fire's large-ish post was not that long before Ouro's and iirc wasnt very alignment indicative. It's weird to make a read that quickly, it's usually colored by earlier interactions.
Click to expand...

I would have thought that scum would try to make sure that their reads can at least be justified though. Fire and Exo seems like a very odd pair to put as one of your top two since there's no real justification for it.
 
F

Fireblend

Banned
I obviously know Exodu5 isn't scum, but what makes you lean scum on him, Crimson? Feels like an easy target considering his inactivity, though I'll grant you that his post about you setting up a trap or whatever felt odd. I'm not even sure what he was talking about.

About Ouro's read of me, it didn't raise any alarms at the time and I usually am very paranoid of people openly town-reading me and agreeing with me. If I was hard-pressed to find something suspicious, I'd say maybe his justification of being biased due to our interactions in Brexit doesn't sound fully convincing.
Ourobolus said:
I dunno, it just stood out to me? Maybe I'm being blinded by my perception of Fire in Brexit
Click to expand...
instead of, you know, actually justifying their read. I thought my post previous to his read was solid tho :(

What did you Crimson/everyone think of my discussion regarding lovers chats with Ouro later?
 
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