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[Eotheod]

I love the schadenfreude playing out in all these games that launch in such a horrible state, developers continue to fix them despite getting dogged hard then suddenly their game is being used as the epitome of true gaming. Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky will go down as two games that launched in such a horrendous state, yet fast forward a few years and they are held as the standard for RPG/space sim games.

Hats off to all developers really, games are fucking hard to make and it's even harder seeing your product get shredded by all. To continue working on and nurturing the game to a quality standard is not easy, and in a perfect world wouldn't be necessary but they do it. I'd say the games industry is one of few industries that has this kind of publicly viewable process, and one as well that is heavily impacted by that public opinion.

As much as I hate people who harp on about game processes or complaints that they literally have no idea why it is they may have been caused or that this shit doesn't work like their fantastical opinions claim it should, it is almost a required hazing for developers.

 

[LordBlodgett]

Bethesda needs to up their storytelling game, and take risks when it comes to characters and their motivations. They also need to open up even greater choice about the kind of character you can be, and not be afraid to offend with some realism.

I do not want their worlds to become like Cyberpunk though. The idea behind Bethesda RPGs is you can be whoever you want, that is absolutely not the case with Cyberpunk, where you just get to decide the order which you do quests in, but actually have insanely little choice in what you do during those quests. Cyberpunk is mostly on rails, and you are playing someone else's story. I don't hate that though, I mean I was decently happy with the time I put into Cyberpunk, and extremely happy with the time put into Witcher 3. I really hope that Bethesda continues to increase choice and broadens the play styles rather than moving towards a Cyberpunk style story RPG.

 

[solidus12]

Found this on Twitter, and I thought I had to share it with fellow gaffers

 

[T-0800]

Right now it really does seem like they got Zenimax just for the right to have them exclusively and nothing else.

 

[MikeM]

I spent about 15 hours in Starfield. Dropped it and went to Cyberpunk with the 2.0 update.

Yeah- Cyberpunk kills it in story telling. The characters and their body language makes them feel far more alive and believable. Starfield’s characters are just stiff and soulless.

 

[Woggleman]

Cyberpunk is similar to RDR2 in the sense that you care more about some one off side character than you do about the protagonists of some games.

 

[Romulus]

I played a few side missions waiting for a VR mod but I'm not even sure it's worth it now. The game just doesn't pull me in at all. Even Fallout 4 was better and it was one of the worst Bethesda titles.

 

[Madflavor]

In regards to timing, being squished between BG3 and Phantom Liberty was the worst thing for Starfield.

 

[IAmNotFromDelaware]

For a game that most folks here seem to dislike, there sure are an absurd amount of posts about it.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

So far I've only spent 35 hours in Starfield (I'm still playing BG3 ^^) so maybe my opinion on Starfield will change. What's sure is that my opinion on CP wont change, this game is my biggest disappointment ever.

How were we all so thoroughly fooled into thinking it was going to be great after that big presentation at the MS conference in June

 

[TheTony316]

Man, not even. Morrowind had a more cohesive game world.

Good times. Back when Bethesda was actually ahead of the curve.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Yeah it's pretty obvious they are stuck in the past and haven't kept up with their contemporaries in this aspect of the game. Hopefully the next Elder Scrolls will be better.

I have little to no hope. After Fallout 4 already relied heavily on sandbox gameplay and little on actual human writing and Starfield just upped the game, I don’t see them going back in the next TES. I’ll probably even have less original writing… But who knows… Maybe AI will be fat enough by then to write interesting quests on the fly.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Before Mod Support: Starfield is trash. Cyberpunk the King. Phantom Liberty trashes Todd into dust.

After a couple years of Mod Support: I always supported you. Bethesda always makes good RPGs. Phantom Liberty was overrated trash.

-----------
Got to love how Starfield either praised or it lives rent free in everyone's heads because they harbor so much resentment towards it.

CP2077 is overall a linear narrative handcrafted experience that is just Cyberpunk Doom while Starfield is just Skyrim in Space with Guns. And then starships that have bigger guns.

But will Starfield receive the same mid support as did Skyrim? IIRC neither Fallout 3 nor 4 received a mod support as Skyrim and Morrowind. What makes you think Starfield will?

 

[L*][*N*K]

it honestly feels like just yesterday everyone was shitting in Cyberpunk, how the mighty have risen.

 

[damidu]

In regards to timing, being squished between BG3 and Phantom Liberty was the worst thing for Starfield.

id say poetic justice.
might be a good thing in the end as well, if it works some sort of a wake up call for bethesda. though im not too hopeful.

 

[killatopak]

These problems always existed in Bethesda games but only now people are noticing.

We notice because it's the odd one of the bunch.

Back then Bethesda was on a car while everyone was walking. Now everybody has a car but Bethesda is still using a 2011 Toyota Corolla while everybody else is on Lambo Ferrari shit.

 

[VitoNotVito]

Starfield isn't as bad as some people are trying to say. More importantly it isn't anywhere as good as everyone was hyping (and hoping) it to be.
I think the word "ancient" used by Eurogamer describes it perfectly.

 

[acm2000]

Cyberpunk is probably my favourite FPS of the last 2 generations.

Starfield is probably my favourite RPG of the last 2 generations.

Couldn't care less about other opinions only my own, if I'm enjoying myself then I'm winning, this is after all what gaming is about.

 

[timothet]

Cyberpunk is similar to RDR2 in the sense that you care more about some one off side character than you do about the protagonists of some games.

True. Like, dude... CDPR made me care about fucking vending machine.

 

[arkhamguy123]

So does mass effect 1 from 2007

Honestly starfield makes starfield’s story telling seem bad. Just so boring. The star of the show are their “wow they thought to put that out here?” Little vignette stories you discover.

And they fucked that up because theres enough to count on 2 hands and have fingers left over. The spaceseed thing, the scary alien ship, uhhh the resort in progress with the murder conspiracy aaaaand what else? That’s almost it.

 

[TrebleShot]

Lesson here is to buy direct through steam so you can get a discount, I now have this trash clogging up my library.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I love the schadenfreude playing out in all these games that launch in such a horrible state, developers continue to fix them despite getting dogged hard then suddenly their game is being used as the epitome of true gaming. Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky will go down as two games that launched in such a horrendous state, yet fast forward a few years and they are held as the standard for RPG/space sim games.

Hats off to all developers really, games are fucking hard to make and it's even harder seeing your product get shredded by all. To continue working on and nurturing the game to a quality standard is not easy, and in a perfect world wouldn't be necessary but they do it. I'd say the games industry is one of few industries that has this kind of publicly viewable process, and one as well that is heavily impacted by that public opinion.

As much as I hate people who harp on about game processes or complaints that they literally have no idea why it is they may have been caused or that this shit doesn't work like their fantastical opinions claim it should, it is almost a required hazing for developers.

The script hasn't changed its still the same as it was on day one.

You cannot patch story and characters unfortunately you have to get it right immediately. Bethesda cannot fix Starfield.

 

[DragonNCM]

These problems always existed in Bethesda games but only now people are noticing.

Last generations you could blame HDD & old tech, now is clear it is ancient engine problem.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

I'm not seeing much difference in any of Bethesda's other IPs when they first started out. Seems like a strong start for Starfield franchise that can only build from here. Seems like a lot of world building then actual story.

Did you actually play Starfield? There was no world building that I could see in the 12-15 hours I wasted on it. I started skipping dialogues because it was just wish washy bullshit that droned on for too long.

 

[FunkMiller]

They‘ve got it the wrong way around.

Cyberpunk is the old school style of gaming making.

Starfield is representative of the new puritan, terrified of giving offence, bland, homogenised way of designing a game, tailored for an immature, inexperienced, emotionally unstable, weak minded audience.

 

[gaming_again]

They‘ve got it the wrong way around.

Cyberpunk is the old school style of gaming making.

Starfield is representative of the new puritan, terrified of giving offence, bland, homogenised way of designing a game, tailored for an immature, inexperienced, emotionally unstable, weak minded audience.

The last decade or so have made me realise how important the audience is to art.

 

[Gavon West]

Have the been reading Gaf lmao?

I feel bad for Bethesda...kind of. People have been shitting on Starfield.

But we know why that is though. This thread is hilarious.

 

[JimmyRustler]

So does mass effect 1 from 2007

Honestly starfield makes starfield’s story telling seem bad. Just so boring. The star of the show are their “wow they thought to put that out here?” Little vignette stories you discover.

And they fucked that up because theres enough to count on 2 hands and have fingers left over. The spaceseed thing, the scary alien ship, uhhh the resort in progress with the murder conspiracy aaaaand what else? That’s almost it.

I think Bethesda is for some reason trying to get away from writing quests and just trying to give the player a world where the events write themselves.

Perhaps we will get there one day but currently we are far away from that.

 

[RGB'D]

Have the been reading Gaf lmao?

I feel bad for Bethesda...kind of. People have been shitting on Starfield.

Gaf was always going to shit on Starfield once MS bought Xbox...

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I think Bethesda is for some reason trying to get away from writing quests and just trying to give the player a world where the events write themselves.

I don’t think I’m ready for 500 quests to kill the rats in the cellar.

 

[Negotiator101]

Eurogamer has sput out an article, saying that Starfield storytelling is very bad compared to Cyberpunk

What's your opinion?

The late review code has really hit EG hard huh Rent free as they say

 

[Thirty7ven]

For a game that most folks here seem to dislike, there sure are an absurd amount of posts about it.

Love how some people want non stop talk about their most hyped game ever all the way to release and then when it becomes a bust they want the world to forget.

Say thanks to the astroturfers, media shills, pro bono shills, they got the attention they wanted, just not the type of attention they wanted.

It’s getting more muted by the day though, the suffering will be over soon.

 

[Negotiator101]

I'm a huge Bethesda and Starfield fan (look at my post history), but gonna have to disagree with you here. Regardless of mod support, Starfield is leagues behind Cyberpunk in terms of storytelling, characters, dialogue, gameplay, graphics, etc. In some ways, it even feels like a step backward from Skyrim and Fallout 4. The constant loading screens, the 'zoom-in' effect in dialogue that you get locked into, the B-tier writing in the main story. It all feels like Bethesda regressed, and the overall Starfield package is something out of 2013 instead of 2023.

Mate the gunplay in Starfield is better than Cyberpunk and as far as writing is concerned Rockstar have been destroying everybody since Vice City so not sure what the 2013 remark means?

This is poor fanboy journalism from Eurogamer (wtf happened to this site?). I suppose both games get free advertising though. Honestly the comparison between the two is for what exactly?

 

[Negotiator101]

Love how some people want non stop talk about their most hyped game ever all the way to release and then when it becomes a bust they want the world to forget.

Say thanks to the astroturfers, media shills, pro bono shills, they got the attention they wanted, just not the type of attention they wanted.

It’s getting more muted by the day though, the suffering will be over soon.

A bust? Are you for real with that nonsense? you do know what that means right? If you do then you're making yourself look very silly.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Did you actually play Starfield? There was no world building that I could see in the 12-15 hours I wasted on it. I started skipping dialogues because it was just wish washy bullshit that droned on for too long.

I've visited most of the planets and quite a few of the human settlements that aren't just outposts as well as every derelict ship in the game and I can say there definitely is Universe building after the destruction of Earth.

Not to mention the differences of a planet with no oxygen vs. planets with Oxygen and how it determines if there is an abundance of alien life or not.

It's all in the little details. It's not just in the Bethesda styled NPC dialogue. If anything it seems you chase destinations instead of enjoying the journey for what it is.

JimmyRustler I am confident given the theme is outer space that many will be excited to make mods for weapons, ship building, character models, designing their own planets and cities, and attempt to make their own quests or remake Starfield into a Star Trek or Star Wars themed Universe. I feel the creativity with the setting gives mod support a lot of potential where that potential with Fallout series is rather limited.

For all I know Starfield might get mod support and it might not even take off but I'm hoping that it will. Just imagine filling every planet with cities and quests to explore. The potential is endless.

 

[samoilaaa]

It's not even just the storytelling. It's literally almost everything. Starfield plays, sounds and looks (for the most part) like something released in the early 2010s.

but it has pronouns , thats a modern feature

 

[BigLee74]

This game (Starfield) has received largely unwarranted ribbings for a game that is undoubtedly as good as it is.

Writing isnt as good as X, graphics aren’t as good as Y, RPG isn’t as good as Z. Poll, poll, poll.

And the usual crowd (we all know who they are and how they lean - and many of whom have not even properly played the game) have been clinging on to the review/poll threads, proudly and loudly shouting out all poorly scored reviews, high fiving each other & mocking its fans, and making sure nobody misses if it drops a point on metacritic or Steam.

Is that what being a gaming enthusiast is all about? Really?

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Starfield has more in common with Legend of Zelda games that CDPR games, in terms of storytelling.

System driven game vs story driven game.

Why do you play Starfield? To advance my character, build my ship, explore more planets, to do some quests, to supply that base with resources it needs.... etc

Why do you play Cyberpunk? To
advance story to see how it all plays out, to do character quests to see where they are coming from... etc

 

[Dazraell]

In regards to timing, being squished between BG3 and Phantom Liberty was the worst thing for Starfield.

Unironically, Bethesda stumbled on similar problems when they released Fallout 4 after The Witcher 3. There was a lot of similar discussions back then where people criticized Bethesda's approach to design and storytelling and how dated it felt in comparison. It's been 8 years since then and now the story repeats

 

[Topher]

This game (Starfield) has received largely unwarranted ribbings for a game that is undoubtedly as good as it is.

Writing isnt as good as X, graphics aren’t as good as Y, RPG isn’t as good as Z. Poll, poll, poll.

And the usual crowd (we all know who they are and how they lean - and many of whom have not even properly played the game) have been clinging on to the review/poll threads, proudly and loudly shouting out all poorly scored reviews, high fiving each other & mocking its fans, and making sure nobody misses if it drops a point on metacritic or Steam.

Is that what being a gaming enthusiast is all about? Really?

I'll never understand actively cheering for a game to fail or for it to not be as good as expected. Seems to be inevitable with first party games.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I haven't played Starfield, but I've seen a lot of footage and there isn't a single area that I would say is at a better than average condition compared to modern competitors.

The scale is ambitious, but that's all I feel it has going for it, but that scale has made it look disjointed and less immersive.

 

[Braag]

True. Like, dude... CDPR made me care about fucking vending machine.

Hey! Brendan isn't just a vending machine. He's a choom that listens and cures depression.

 

[Negotiator101]

This game (Starfield) has received largely unwarranted ribbings for a game that is undoubtedly as good as it is.

Writing isnt as good as X, graphics aren’t as good as Y, RPG isn’t as good as Z. Poll, poll, poll.

And the usual crowd (we all know who they are and how they lean - and many of whom have not even properly played the game) have been clinging on to the review/poll threads, proudly and loudly shouting out all poorly scored reviews, high fiving each other & mocking its fans, and making sure nobody misses if it drops a point on metacritic or Steam.

Is that what being a gaming enthusiast is all about? Really?

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Unironically, Bethesda stumbled on similar problems when they released Fallout 4 after The Witcher 3. There was a lot of similar discussions back then where people criticized Bethesda's approach to design and storytelling and how dated it felt in comparison. It's been 8 years since then and now the story repeats

Yeah it seems to be forgotten now but there was a lot of criticism over Fallout 4's story.

 

[Lunarorbit]

I've only played 5 hours of starfield and haven't tried cyberpunk but the criticism is very well deserved.

 

[SHA]

Sociopath has nothing to do with modernity in storytelling, you could tell the people you're working with aren't your real friends.

 

[Soleil rouge]

Took a break from Starfield and playing Cyberpunk now...won't be able to return to Starfield. It pales in comparison in almost every single aspect.

I just returned to Starfield today due to having to wait for Cyberpunk mod updates...and it was roooouuugh. Starfield feels at least a decade old in every respect.

It's crazy to me that a AAA studio with unlimited funds could end up with such amateur writing and voice talent.

 

[ungalo]

Starfield needs to be compared to games like New Vegas, not Cyberpunk. Don't care about storytelling from a staging/animation point of view in a Bethesda game, just do better writing, better quest design, and it will already be much better. They just need to be a better version of themselves, because truly gamers don't even know what they want, they also shit on Cyberpunk for the lack of freedom, RPG design elements etc.

 

[Windom Earle]

Gaf was always going to shit on Starfield once MS bought Xbox...

Sure some fanboys will do that but I remember people were not kind to Fallout 4 either. Starfield deservedly gets more criticism now and I don't think the exclusivity plays a huge part in it. Bethesda is a meme, Todd is a meme and them being stuck in the past is the reality. As cruel as it sounds, shitting on Bethesda is fun and they deserve it.

 

[Balducci30]

I was with him till he said cyberpunk scenes wouldn’t be out of place in a Tarantino movie - stupid statement