Support NeoGAF

[xBlueStonex]

Before Mod Support: Starfield is trash. Cyberpunk the King. Phantom Liberty trashes Todd into dust.

After a couple years of Mod Support: I always supported you. Bethesda always makes good RPGs. Phantom Liberty was overrated trash.

-----------
Got to love how Starfield either praised or it lives rent free in everyone's heads because they harbor so much resentment towards it.

CP2077 is overall a linear narrative handcrafted experience that is just Cyberpunk Doom while Starfield is just Skyrim in Space with Guns. And then starships that have bigger guns.

I'm a huge Bethesda and Starfield fan (look at my post history), but gonna have to disagree with you here. Regardless of mod support, Starfield is leagues behind Cyberpunk in terms of storytelling, characters, dialogue, gameplay, graphics, etc. In some ways, it even feels like a step backward from Skyrim and Fallout 4. The constant loading screens, the 'zoom-in' effect in dialogue that you get locked into, the B-tier writing in the main story. It all feels like Bethesda regressed, and the overall Starfield package is something out of 2013 instead of 2023.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Starfield feels older than Skyrim in my opinion. At least Skyrim felt immersive and offered an interesting world to explore.

 

[Del_X]

Change it sorta. I mean the writing was just mid for half the quests - that’s a skill issue.

The other problem is a lack of bespoke set pieces. Also one is an actual RPG with superfluous crafting and base management and the other is an open world action game with RPG elements.

 

[Sgt.Asher]

Bethesda was outdated when fallout 4 came out. Then they somehow made a space exploration game that made exploring space boring.

 

[Atrus]

Starfield is just lazy design that doesn’t even attempt to meet Bethesda’s own accomplishments a decade ago. If the only excuse people can come up with is “mod support” will fix it then they sure as hell shouldn’t be charging full price just so other people can fix their mistakes.

It’s a lot like The Red Mile in game. A lot of hype, but no filling.

 

[Kacho]

Change it sorta. I mean the writing was just mid for half the quests - that’s a skill issue.

Their writing has always been mid IMO. It took a huge nosedive in Skyrim but Starfield is a new level of bad. There are moments of interesting ideas but by and large it’s mostly toothless junk. Like something inoffensively bland you’d find in a Marvel movie.

I genuinely think better quality writing and characters would do wonders for their games without needing to ape Cyberpunk to win the approval of Eurogamer.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'm a huge Bethesda and Starfield fan (look at my post history), but gonna have to disagree with you here. Regardless of mod support, Starfield is leagues behind Cyberpunk in terms of storytelling, characters, dialogue, gameplay, graphics, etc. In some ways, it even feels like a step backward from Skyrim and Fallout 4. The constant loading screens, the 'zoom-in' effect in dialogue that you get locked into, the B-tier writing in the main story. It all feels like Bethesda regressed, and the overall Starfield package is something out of 2013 instead of 2023.

I'm not seeing much difference in any of Bethesda's other IPs when they first started out. Seems like a strong start for Starfield franchise that can only build from here. Seems like a lot of world building then actual story.

Cyberpunk only primarily takes place in one Metropolis.

What I will concede is that CP has high stakes that make you care about what happens. Starfield IMO doesn't have any really big compelling narrative to keep you care all that much.

 

[Madflavor]

How the mighty have fallen?

Or more, just not advanced?

I really like the game but I guess people expected a lot more form them.

I wouldn't say "a lot" more. Their approach to game design are two generations behind. Even back in 2015, their formula was starting to show it's age. It's 2023 now, there's no excuse anymore. Back in Fallout 4 there were complaints about their game design, but for the most part it was fairly quiet. With Starfield, those complaints are a lot louder, well heard, and have heavily affected their review scores. Their reputation is starting to get hurt by it. They're at a point now where they cannot keep ignoring this. If by 2028 - 2030 we get TES VI, and it's STILL the same old BGS formula with barely any real advancement in NPC interaction, seemless world exploration, and animations, it's going to be looked at as an absolute joke. Starfield is seen as a joke now, but just imagine how BGS are gonna look 5-7 years from now if they don't evolve.

It's not like you have to look hard to find criticisms toward Starfield, memes about how archaic it is, and comparisons to the much superior Cyberpunk 2077. So I'm sure the team over at BGS is well aware of all of this. But it's really going to come down to Todd. The man is still stuck in 2006 - 2011. Is he going to step up and take the BGS formula to the next level? Or is he going to settle for what he knows, and his team will have to begrudgingly follow him? We'll see, but sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[Thyuda]

I'm not seeing much difference in any of Bethesda's other IPs when they first started out. Seems like a strong start for Starfield franchise that can only build from here. Seems like a lot of world building then actual story.

What is this even supposed to mean, IPs when they first started out? Do you mean The Elder Scrolls: Arena? Fallout 1? Honestly, Bethesda hasn't made a different game since Morrowind.

So Bethesdas supposed "magnus opum" is now just a worldbuilder for sequels that come out... in 2032?

 

[Dane]

Isn't cyberpunk storytelling is mostly doing the same thing just different words? That the very quest outside of endgame with really crafted choices and outcomes was The Pickup which was the first one shown to the public in 2018?

 

[Madflavor]

It’s obvious that Bethesda has been resting on their laurels since their success with Skyrim. People loving a game released in 2011 doesn’t mean they will if it’s released in 2023.

The fact that by the end of it all, we'll be waiting close to 20 years for the sequel to Skyrim, is absolutely positively fucking absurd. I was 23 when Skyrim released. The idea that I'm going to be 40 - 42 years old when the next game finally comes out is such bullshit.

 

[Thyuda]

The fact that by the end of it all, we'll be waiting close to 20 years for the sequel to Skyrim, is absolutely positively fucking absurd. I was 23 when Skyrim released. The idea that I'm going to be 40 - 42 years old when the next game finally comes out is such bullshit.

This is what's most mindboggling to me personally, they got aquired by MS over 3 years ago, what the f is MS doing with Bethesda? They are presenting themselves like they always have, there's no accelerated timeline, no change in scope, nothing.

Right now it really does seem like they got Zenimax just for the right to have them exclusively and nothing else.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

They literally took the Fallout 4 formula and ut it in space. I mean the establishments or whatever you call em, they have the same useless purpose. You can go through the whole game without making even one. I just play it for the story but as far as some sort of evolution of gameplay? Stuck 10+ years behind.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

The fact that by the end of it all, we'll be waiting close to 20 years for the sequel to Skyrim, is absolutely positively fucking absurd. I was 23 when Skyrim released. The idea that I'm going to be 40 - 42 years old when the next game finally comes out is such bullshit.

Dont exaggerate dude, its been like 12 years not TWENTY. Lets say another 4 years we get a sequel. I mean not all games have yearly or so releases. Some are left to the side. In those 12 years we got Fallout 4 and now Starfield. Problem is, Starfield IS a sequel to Skyrim in game design and that is why it feels 12 years old alredy with more polish.

 

[systemr123]

Starfield is so good its used as a comparison to every other game it seems. Rent Free

Guess it’s rent free because the apartment is rotten from the inside. Being rent free is not always a good thing.

 

[balls of snow]

Beth reap what they sow for not changing their engine since morrowind days.
Evolve or die.

 

[EverydayBeast]

How Bethesda approaches story telling is different.

 

[kirby007]

haters gonna hate

 

[balls of snow]

I wouldn't say "a lot" more. Their approach to game design are two generations behind. Even back in 2015, their formula was starting to show it's age. It's 2023 now, there's no excuse anymore. Back in Fallout 4 there were complaints about their game design, but for the most part it was fairly quiet. With Starfield, those complaints are a lot louder, well heard, and have heavily affected their review scores. Their reputation is starting to get hurt by it. They're at a point now where they cannot keep ignoring this. If by 2028 - 2030 we get TES VI, and it's STILL the same old BGS formula with barely any real advancement in NPC interaction, seemless world exploration, and animations, it's going to be looked at as an absolute joke. Starfield is seen as a joke now, but just imagine how BGS are gonna look 5-7 years from now if they don't evolve.

It's not like you have to look hard to find criticisms toward Starfield, memes about how archaic it is, and comparisons to the much superior Cyberpunk 2077. So I'm sure the team over at BGS is well aware of all of this. But it's really going to come down to Todd. The man is still stuck in 2006 - 2011. Is he going to step up and take the BGS formula to the next level? Or is he going to settle for what he knows, and his team will have to begrudgingly follow him? We'll see, but sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Its funny because Kojima went and invented an entire new genre at his first unshackled by Konami outing.

 

[Aenima]

Bugthesda games always had crappy stories, thats not a game design or engine fault, its a writters fault. They games was always great for exploration but the stories always felt forgetable. There was some good small side stories from side quests here and there but the main stories was always mediocre.

Did not played Starfield to compare it to Cyberpunk, but even if i like Witcher way more, Cyberpunk stories is one of its streghts and is something that CDPR always deliver. Some side stories from Cyberpunk and Witcher are better than most western RPGs main stories.

 

[Sanepar]

Bethesda writers are trash and they need to drop this engine. Use id tech would be better.

 

[nowhat]

Figures. Eurogamer's articles make actual traditional game journalism seem ancient.

 

[Dacvak]

BG3 has absolutely ruined basically every other narrative-based game for me, or at least RPGs. I genuinely can not remember the last time I came close to engaging with a story in a game the way I do with BG3. Maybe TLoU?

Luckily, story is the thing about games I usually care the least about, so it’s not so bad. But the characters in Starfield are just laughable compared to how incredibly realized and fleshed out the characters in BG3 are. I probably would have thought they were fine prior to playing BG3, though.

It’s honestly wild how good BG3 is at characters, story, and immersion. And, again, I usually don’t give a crap about stories, or even RPGs.

 

[March Climber]

 

[Fredrik]

No time and energy for hate here.

I loved Cyberpunk 3 years ago, was my GOTY, cool to finally see people see what I saw when everybody was busy hating on it instead of playing it.

And I love Starfield now, hope to see people change from hate to love in a couple years again. The writing can be so-so and the design is tame but I’m still having fun and there is no other game I’d rather play right now.

 

[Raven117]

I mean, not quite the same design philosophy....But yeah... Cyberpunk feels "next-gen" while Starfield feels "last-gen."

 

[Raven117]

It's not just the storytelling. Starfield in general is stuck in 2006

Man, not even. Morrowind had a more cohesive game world.

 

[nemiroff]

It is an crucial part of BGS's responsibility for themselves and their audience as a powerhouse to ensure they're thinking ahead and to be up to date with their technology.

The GI tech is fine, the interiors gorgeous, but still not good enough in the whole picture. To not be able to provide a seamless experience/feel a la Cyberpunk is to me almost unforgivable.

Every archaic loading screen is like a metaphorical staccato slap in the face to me.

 

[hyperbertha]

Starfield is so good its used as a comparison to every other game it seems. Rent Free

That's some mighty impressive mental gymnastics there buddy!

 

[lefty1117]

Cyberpunk has a better graphics engine that supports the latest tech. Everything else that differentiates the games are built on that. The writing in both is subjective but the performance of the games and what can be done with the engine can be fairly compared. I don't think "hasn't changed much from previous BGS games" is really a worthy complaint; that's the style of BSG games. You either like it or not. But I do think asking questions about why the tech isn't more modern, no nvidia support, why no dynamic cinematic camera angles during conversations, loading into single rooms etc - those feel like more substantive points.

 

[GetInTheRobot]

The revisionist history to shit on starfield is more funny than anything. The story was fairly mid in CP2077 and Starfield was fairly lauded for its quest. Now CP is the bastion of story telling while Starfield is an utter failure? I know it gets clicks but its feeding into the lowest common denominator for the clicks. Soon we'll see "Cyberpunk shows starifeld how public transit really is done" when they patch it in after 4 years. The starfield industrial complex is leading to some wacky opinion pieces.

 

[CatLady]

Aren't Eurogamer the ones that were super-bitter they didn't get an advance copy of Starfield? Nice article.

 

[Rendered Tangent]

I'm going to keep playing Starfield till at least the 10th, and depending on how well Forza runs I may keep going back, but once Spiderman 2 drops I'm gone.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Only 5 votes for didn’t play Starfield out of 154 votes.

 

[Lucie Goosey]

They could both learn a thing from Baldur’s Gate 3 but I understand.

We all could lol

 

[PisswasserYellow]

Yes, they need to change. I put about 30 hours into it, and I had some fun, but I started a fresh run of Cyberpunk after the update and wow does it make Starfield look like shit. I was fully expecting Fallout in space, and that's pretty much what it is, but I can't point to anything off the top of my head that is really an improvement from those games that were made years ago. I could go on, but I really hope they make some major changes for the next Elder Scrolls game, because I do not want more fucking loading screens and characters who are a bunch of goody two shoes assholes.

 

[Sleepwalker]

The story and characters in cyberpunk makes Starfield seems like some 12yo kid wrote it.

 

[Arsic]

I found most of the side content in starfield satisfying for main factions.

Main story was neat but nothing ground breaking.

Phantom liberty story was just aces. Brilliant.

If Bethesda change anything it should be to just hire better writers for dialogue, and more satisfying storylines to tell.

 

[DanielG165]

Eh, I dunno, I personally can get along with both just fine whenever I play them, which is regularly. Both games have really good dialogue moments that thoroughly impress me, from the voice acting and facial expressions, inflections, etc. I’ve had plenty of moments with Sarah where I truly felt like this was a real person I was talking to, or the DJ in Neon City, or Andreja, Barrett, and even Vasco. I’ve also had this same feeling with Julie, Panam, Mama Wells, and Jackie, to name a few.

There hasn’t been a moment where I’ve switched between these two games and thought to myself “man, I really wish I was playing Cyberpunk right now”, or vice versa. I love and enjoy both for what they are. When I’m playing Starfield, it always hooks me in to the point where I don’t want to stop playing, and the same happens when I play Cyberpunk, especially with 2.0. The storytelling in both is solid to me, and can also be awkward depending on the specific context or how I approached a character. They’re completely different games, despite being giant RPGs.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

My Friend Peppa Pig has beef with Starfield.

 

[Madflavor]

Dont exaggerate dude, its been like 12 years not TWENTY. Lets say another 4 years we get a sequel. I mean not all games have yearly or so releases. Some are left to the side. In those 12 years we got Fallout 4 and now Starfield. Problem is, Starfield IS a sequel to Skyrim in game design and that is why it feels 12 years old alredy with more polish.

I said "close" to 20 years. So if TESVI comes out in 2028 - 2030, that's a 5-7 year wait. Add that to the 12 years we've been waiting, that's 17-19, completely in line with me saying close to 20 years. Also what does Fallout and Starfield have to do with The Elder Scrolls? They're different franchises, and not everyone likes those settings.

 

[artsi]

Before Mod Support: Starfield is trash. Cyberpunk the King. Phantom Liberty trashes Todd into dust.

After a couple years of Mod Support: I always supported you. Bethesda always makes good RPGs. Phantom Liberty was overrated trash.

-----------
Got to love how Starfield either praised or it lives rent free in everyone's heads because they harbor so much resentment towards it.

CP2077 is overall a linear narrative handcrafted experience that is just Cyberpunk Doom while Starfield is just Skyrim in Space with Guns. And then starships that have bigger guns.

The latest Bethesda game that got significant legs with mod support was Skyrim from 12 years ago.

Fallout 4 never got very good no matter how many nude big boobs thicc ass mods were released for it.

Starfield is not Skyrim.

 

[mejin]

Starfield isn't even the best game from Bethesda.

The game first got fucked by BG3 comparisons and now by Cyberpunk. Bethesda can't catch a break.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Starfield is not Skyrim.

Starfield also has not been out for 12 years.

 

[artsi]

Starfield also has not been out for 12 years.

Skyrim didn't need 12 years, it was an instant legend and a meme machine with it's dragonborn songs, arrow-in-the-knee's and it was actually a great game.

Starfield has none of that charisma in 2023, it's just the newest game from the makers of Skyrim.

 

[spons]

Starfield was fun but not earth shattering. That is, it was no Skyrim.

I voted "No" because Bethesda should just do their own thing. It makes their games interesting in a good way.
Jumping around towns mashing the A button at some random dude to start a staring contest, it has its charms.

 

[Jormatar]

BGS has always sucked in storytelling.

 

[ByWatterson]

Yes, it needs to evolve but on the other hand, I don't want that to happen at the expense of what makes their games great.
CP tries too hard to be "cool", the slang is so cringe it feels like it was written by a 15 year old emo girl and just that was a big turn off after an hour of the expansion. I don't know how I've put 130h in CP2077 honestly.

It's not for the preem chrome.

It's because you live for the eddys, choom.

 

[mitch1971]

While I've enjoyed the fallout series from Bethesda, they are still the Mattel of RPG makers.

 

[recursive]

I haven't played Cyberpunk, but I like Bethesda games just as they are.

After many hours I feel that Starfield is a lightyear wide but millimeters deep. It is a big step back from Skyrim. For some reason the CPU usage in this game is super high but the AI is weak as fuck. No NPC timetables, low number of NPCs walking through town, NPCs staring at walls for extended times total breaking immersion, etc. I am having a satisfactory time but it is definitely a 7/10 game. There is nothing innovative here and if anything regressive.

I am curious if you see this game as on par with previous Bethesda games.