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I'm trying to understand the perspective of the "Disrespecting our flag" crowd

I have not been respected by my country but I am living here and I understand that disrespecting the flag is not the correct action to take.

Of all the ways I see people treating the flag frivolously - using it for commercial purposes, as a backdrop to a campaign commercial, flying from the back of a pickup truck, printed on a pair of underwear, printed on beer cans - an athlete solemnly taking a knee during the national anthem would have to be near the absolute bottom of the list if I were someone deeply concerned about disrespecting the flag.
 

molnizzle

Member

For the most part, yes. Obviously I'm sure the KKK members who talk shit at alt-right rallies are motivated by racism. Most folks aren't, though. People grew up hearing stories about how their grandparents fought and died defeating the Nazis in WWII.

Not having a dogmatic weird hard-on for a piece of cloth is not 'out of touch'. I have lost family to war and that did nothing but encourage my resolve to oppose war, not build my patriot boner for something that represents death to other families across the globe. If anything those who needlessly obsess with others "respecting our flag" are in need of a reality check.

It mostly stems from the post-WWII generation. People in Trump's age range. Their parents actually did fight and die "for our freedom." Those people then passed their patriotism onto their kids and on the cycle continued.
 
People need to stop caring about flags and anthems and worry more about people.

The whole thing has nothing to do with disrespecting flags and anthems, it's because black folks don't know their place. The flag and anthem being disrespected is a complete smoke screen to what's really going on.

Notice how if they riot, it's bad, and if it's a peaceful protest, it's bad? Yeah? That's not a conincidence.
 

Nepenthe

Member
If the only thing you associate the American flag and national anthem with are their positive ideals, you know, ignoring all the history where we've failed collectively as a country to live up to said ideals, then of course you'd be upset if you saw someone desecrating either in some way. Same as if I saw someone desecrating a rainbow flag.

It's easy to understand why people think this way. It's just intellectually lacking.
 
Cold war indoctrination, flag worship, muh patriotism, any form of peaceful protest by uppity black people is unruly and disrespectful, etc.
Honestly, that righteous indignation could be feigned here while having little comment about people flying the secessionist flag...I mean they literally did not want to be Americans anymore. But no issues there. Good people, etc.

Nazi flag wavers? Some good people in there too, man.

Calling attention to injustice? Unacceptable!
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
For the most part, yes. Obviously I'm sure the KKK members who talk shit at alt-right rallies are motivated my racism. Most folks aren't, though. People grew up hearing stories about how their grandparents fought and died defeating the Nazis in WWII.

It mostly stems from the post-WWII generation. People in Trump's age range. Their parents actually did fight and die "for our freedom." Those people then passed their patriotism onto their kids and on the cycle continued.

Your not going to convince anyone that treating people protesting as second class citizens has anything to do with any legitimate point they have to say.

It doesn't matter what avenue a person with a legitimate grievance might use to protest, old white people would get angry if they were being taken away from their regularly scheduled programming
 
I have not been respected by my country but I am living here and I understand that disrespecting the flag is not the correct action to take.
Respect is something that has to be earned. It's not inherent. If your country does not respect you, why should you respond with respect?
 
Man. Some of y'all are really out of touch.

Certain people are upset because they lost grandparents, parents, siblings, and children in wars fought under that flag. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with BLM or minorities. Hell, a very large portion of the active military isn't white. They also see it as disrespect.

I'm a veteran and I'm not bothered by it since I see it as a simple expression of free speech, but I also came back from Afghanistan alive and with all my limbs. People who weren't so lucky (or who love/d someone who wasn't so lucky) might have a different perspective.

Last month the president of the united states struggled to speak negatively about Nazis and not a single person who gave Kap shit last year stood up to say how offensive it was to World War 2 vets.

Shit, people in some parts of the country still worship the confederacy.
 
Respect is something that has to be earned. It's not inherent. If your country does not respect you, why you should respond with respect?
Because like I mentioned in my initial post: I believe it represents something greater. We are struggling to become a unified nation, and our actions should demonstrate that we believe in something greater. Unfortunately these type of "protests" are further tearing us apart as a country.
 

Acorn

Member
It's what happens when everyone stokes the patriotism b.s for commercial or political gain for 100+ years. Patriotism has also been twisted into meaningless symbols instead of anything with substance.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
You guys instill this blind patriotism in kids from kindergarten age. And then you wonder why people are upset when they buck the conventions?

Fix the root of the issue. Patriotism, especially blind patriotism, is a recipe for disaster.
 

Slo

Member
You guys instill this blind patriotism in kids from kindergarten age. And then you wonder why people are upset when they buck the conventions?

Fix the root of the issue. Patriotism, especially blind patriotism, is a recipe for disaster.

I'll agree with that.
 

Ovid

Member
You guys instill this blind patriotism in kids from kindergarten age. And then you wonder why people are upset when they buck the conventions?

Fix the root of the issue. Patriotism, especially blind patriotism, is a recipe for disaster.
It's what happens when everyone stokes the patriotism b.s for commercial or political gain for 100+ years. Patriotism has also been twisted into meaningless symbols instead of anything with substance.

Pretty much this right here.
 

royalan

Member
People need to stop caring about flags and anthems and worry more about people.

The whole thing has nothing to do with disrespecting flags and anthems, it's because black folks don't know their place. The flag and anthem being disrespected is a complete smoke screen to what's really going on.

Notice how if they riot, it's bad, and if it's a peaceful protest, it's bad? Yeah? That's not a conincidence.

Exactly. OP is thinking too hard, because this isn't about the flag, or the anthem, or kneeling. It's about a black man not knowing his place.
 

molnizzle

Member
You guys instill this blind patriotism in kids from kindergarten age. And then you wonder why people are upset when they buck the conventions?

Fix the root of the issue. Patriotism, especially blind patriotism, is a recipe for disaster.

Pretty much. We grow up reciting the pledge of allegiance every single morning. “One nation under God.” No surprise people internalize that shit through adulthood.

Hell, my third grade teacher even made us sing “God bless America” every morning as well. The pledge wasn’t enough.
 
Last month the president of the united states struggled to speak negatively about Nazis and not a single person who gave Kap shit last year stood up to say how offensive it was to World War 2 vets.

Shit, people in some parts of the country still worship the confederacy.
This right here.

Don't believe anyone telling you it's about respecting the flag while having little comment about actual flag-waving Nazis and Confederates walking our streets.

The cake is a fucking lie. Don't eat the cake.
 

GamerJM

Banned
A lot of people are (wrongfully) taught from a young age to respect the flag. In school we're required to say the Pledge of Allegiance and descent isn't allowed. In Boy Scouts we were supposed to treat flags with an extreme amount of respect, even letting it touch the ground wasn't permitted. When you stop and think about this, there isn't actually really any justification behind it other than blind patriotism, but a lot of people don't realize that because they've been told the importance of it all their life.

Edit: I only skimmed the OP, I didn't realize this was referring to the protest going on right now. In this specific protest most of it is obviously rooted in racism.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
For the most part, yes. Obviously I'm sure the KKK members who talk shit at alt-right rallies are motivated by racism. Most folks aren't, though. People grew up hearing stories about how their grandparents fought and died defeating the Nazis in WWII.



It mostly stems from the post-WWII generation. People in Trump's age range. Their parents actually did fight and die "for our freedom." Those people then passed their patriotism onto their kids and on the cycle continued.

Remember this- while their parents, and grandparents, fought and died defeating Nazis, my fucking grandfather couldn't walk into a restaurant and sit down at the counter and eat his fucking lunch in Arkansas where he lived. We're pretending like the American flag is some pure symbol of goodness? Fuck that. It doesn't cut it for me. It's about racism. It's about wanting black Americans to know their place, to sit down and shut up and accept that society grinds their boot in our face.
 
Because like I mentioned in my initial post: I believe it represents something greater. We are struggling to become a unified
That’s what these protests are about: that greater something. Kneeling or sitting during the anthem is essentially saying, hey, you know those greater ideals we’re supposed to aspire to? That these symbols are supposed to represent? Well, the country doesn’t reflect them at the moment and I can’t condone that
 
Because like I mentioned in my initial post: I believe it represents something greater.
But it really doesn’t. I mean, ultimately we are just another country. And as a country, we are only as good as we treat our citizens. I believe patriotism in any form is really misguided, but certainly moreso in America where we don’t even attempt to take care of the basic needs of our least privileged citizens.

People don’t choose to be born here, and the ones who come here of their own accord largely don’t do it because of what America represents. They do it for a more tangible reason, whether it’s political freedom, economic prosperity, or something else.

Even if you are truly proud to be a citizen of a country, the flag and the national anthem are just objects. They are just ceremonial implements that ultimately have no real intrinsic value and are therefore not intrinsically worthy of respect.

But as I said earlier in this thread, it becomes an issue because mostly people don’t even consider these things. They just think patriotism is something they should have because they’ve always been told they should. I am certainly guilty of thinking that way for a long time. It wasn’t until the past few years that I looked back on reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in my school years and thought, “Hmm, that’s kind of fucked up now that I think about it.” And the patriotism surrounding sporting events, especially when they don’t take place between international teams, is really strange.
 

Wilsongt

Member
White people didn't fight and die in wars for black people to take a knee during the national anthem is essentially all I am getting out of it.

Unless there are people who take the initiative to wipe the bbq sauce from their chicken wings off their hands and faces and put down the beer long enough to stand up for every national anthem sung on Sundays, they are just showing how obviously racist they are.
 
Because like I mentioned in my initial post: I believe it represents something greater. We are struggling to become a unified nation, and our actions should demonstrate that we believe in something greater. Unfortunately these type of "protests" are further tearing us apart as a country.

Then we're going to have to tear further apart as a country before we can become unified. The reaction to Colin Kaepernick and all others protesting systemic racism and police brutality is to shut up and sit down (except when the national anthem is playing). But what hope is there of ever pressing the issue if people don't take their right to protest seriously? Is the goal to just keep sweeping the issues under the rug from generation to generation?

White supremacy has to be defeated. It can't be reasoned with and it will never cede power out of generosity or well-crafted argument alone. Protesting is but one avenue to forcefully press the issue. And to protest is to, by nature, disrupt something. You can't effectively protest in complete silence and away from view.

I get that some people might have stronger feelings about symbols like the flag than I do, but don't let that get in the way of fighting for a better, more just country than the one we have now.

our actions should demonstrate that we believe in something greater.

Isn't that exactly what Kaepernick is doing? People stand for the national anthem out of habit, routine, and to not make any statement altogether - to blend in, basically. Isn't silently protesting for the cause of racial justice demonstrating a belief in something greater?
 
Remember this- while their parents, and grandparents, fought and died defeating Nazis, my fucking grandfather couldn't walk into a restaurant and sit down at the counter and eat his fucking lunch in Arkansas where he lived. We're pretending like the American flag is some pure symbol of goodness? Fuck that. It doesn't cut it for me. It's about racism. It's about wanting black Americans to know their place, to sit down and shut up and accept that society grinds their boot in our face.
Truth is smelling salts for the soul.
 
It mostly stems from the post-WWII generation. People in Trump's age range. Their parents actually did fight and die "for our freedom." Those people then passed their patriotism onto their kids and on the cycle continued.

My grandfather fought in the Pacific Theater including Okinawa. He was never of the opinion he fought for our freedom, and didn't bring back a need to instill a sense of pride for our country. He instead brought the traumas and hell of it all. Baby boomers who react negatively to opposing injustices internally and opposing war externally to our boundaries are doing the exact opposite of honoring the generation they hold esteem for.
 

royalan

Member
Pretty much. We grow up reciting the pledge of allegiance every single morning. “One nation under God.” No surprise people internalize that shit through adulthood.

Hell, my third grade teacher even made us sing “God bless America” every morning as well. The pledge wasn’t enough.

But this isn't unique to the US. A lot of countries have some sort of national pledge or song you learn in school.

You guys are giving too much credit to the pledge. As if kids aren't just mindlessly rattling that shit off and then going back to playing pogs under the table...or whatever it is kids do these days.

The problem isn't the pledge. The problem is that we've tied the pledge, and all traditional elements of Americana, to being white, male, Christian, warmongering, and conservative. And anything that challenges THAT is a problem.

That's why the Dixie Chicks got shit on for being "unpatriotic." They weren't black, but they were women. Uppity women.
 

x5pence

Neo Member
It's a fallback excuse to hide their racism. You can't call them racist because they're talking about fallen soldiers. It's no different than the "illegal is illegal" crowd on immigration, as if they don't equally despise legal immigrants.
 

Cat Party

Member
People who perceive that they will suffer if the status quo changes will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo.
 
I posted this in the other thread, but it deserves to be posted again. A great Twitter thread on "disrespecting the flag."

Screenshotted version so you don't have to click anything:

AngPeuS.jpg
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
But this isn't unique to the US. A lot of countries have some sort of national pledge or song you learn in school.

You guys are giving too much credit to the pledge. As if kids aren't just mindlessly rattling that shit off and then going back to playing pogs under the table...or whatever it is kids do these days.

The problem isn't the pledge. The problem is that we've tied the pledge, and all traditional elements of Americana, to being white, male, Christian, warmongering, and conservative. And anything that challenges THAT is a problem.

That's why the Dixie Chicks got shit on for being "unpatriotic." They weren't black, but they were women. Uppity women.

Really? Which ones?
 
There's no one-size-fits-all explanation for the rationale behind not wanting to people to kneel during the national anthem. If I were to try and give the most basic explanation, it would be that in the US, we are VERY into communal demonstrations of our patriotism (though I like to just call it nationalism). We grow up singing the national anthem in our schools, some of us are taught to never poorly treat a flag, we put the flag on the outside of our homes, our restaurants, our gas stations, we sing the national anthem at any given sporting event — even something as small as a YMCA swim meet. So when you get to something as public as a National Football League game, there are bound to be some people shocked that someone would step out of line. People see it as more than just a simple explanation of free speech; it's elevated to the level of a public disturbance.

From there, you can fit people into about 5 groups with varying levels of stupidity and defense:

- There's the people that see the flag as the ultimate symbol of police, military, firefighter service and see disrespect to the flag as the ultimate personal attack against those people. This group loves to ignore the context of the actual message and instead inexplicably sees their misguided world view as universal. Probably the same type of person that would make this argument is the same type of person that would insist that science has answered the question of whether or not the fetus is a human without really thinking critically about why they've come to that conclusion and why others might differ. Their use of people that have given their lives for the country as a shield even though they themselves have probably not done fuck all is really disgusting when you think about it, but the problem is, they don't think about it.

- There's the people that don't want to be reminded when they're enjoying a fun game of CTE-ball about the problems unique to other people. This person is probably most likely to be convinced that there is merit to a person disrespecting the flag, but at the same time, this is the most troubling position for me personally. Nothing is going to get done if this person insists on hiding in their comfortable shell of the US is pretty great.

- There's the people that want minorities to know their place. This is more of a subset of the above, as I have a hard time guessing this group wants understands the plight of the black American, but it also has some additional malice. They know that their comforts are more important than the plight of others and will put a temp. stop to free speech to keep it that way. This group is logically inconsistent, malicious, and the kind of people you definitely don't want to be friends with.

- There's the crazies, who will say that an attack on the flag is an attack on free speech or an incitement of violence, whatever that means. They haven't thought critically about shit.

- And there's the ignorant people, who don't know what the fuck is going on but they default to my original explanation that someone is stepping out of line in a public display of patriotism and that is bad for reasons.

Reasoning with any of these people is really tough. I've tried. People just see the flag as the coolest thing ever and formulate their own narrative on what the person was attacking and how and why. The most success I've had is to convince the person that they're not leaving the "attacker" with very many options, and that in itself is in contrast to the spirit of free speech. If disrespecting the flag gets people talking and no one directly was hurt, how is that a bad thing? You could've chosen to ignore this, but you decided not to and now you know more about their message and you can reasonably go on with your life EVEN if you're military.
 
Screenshotted version so you don't have to click anything:

Pretty much all of this seems like its treating the flag incredibly frivolously, and most of this isn't even for a cause, but rather for cheap commercial interests.

And yet we never hear from the "don't disrespect the flag" crowd about this.
 
It pisses them off because the flag, to them, represents the "ideal America", the America that does no wrong, is always in the right, is always the protector to the underdogs and the fighters against corruption and evil. When someone protests the flag, it is a reminder than maybe these folks' perception of reality is fucked up. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they were wrong all along. Maybe their parents were wrong for force feeding them bullshit sandwiches as kids. People don't like to be confronted by the truth, nor like to be told they are wrong. "How dare you say I'm wrong, I've believed this all my life. Surely my parents can't be wrong, they are my parents and they taught me this themselves!!!" Years of ignorance and lies makes the truth hurt when it slaps them in the face.

America isn't ideal, and it isn't perfect. We CAN work together to try to make it as good as it could be, but for some strange reason there's a number of asshats that just don't wanna do that, and they AIN'T the ones disrespecting the flag.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
"protest respectfully" is basically a process argument, not a policy argument, and process arguments are typically insincere and motivated reasoning to shield an intended policy argument. of course this is not true in one hundred percent of cases, but in general if someone is arguing about process or rules or how the system works rather than what they actually want, just assume they've chosen their opinion on the process to support the outcome they want.
 
Pretty much all of this seems like its treating the flag incredibly frivolously, and most of this isn't even for a cause, but rather for cheap commercial interests.

And yet we never hear from the "don't disrespect the flag" crowd about this.
To be fair there are actually people who care about that stuff. Dan Ryckert got serious shit from some folks for wearing his American flag pants at a fake video game wrestling event. Still, the flag is just a flag and it doesn’t inherently deserve any respect.
 

Misha

Banned
From my interactions with my dad it seems that the surface issue he has is that these people are showing that they dislike our country and that's a problem. A lack of willingness to try to seek the opinion of the people dissatisfied with the government makes it impossible to see as anything more than a generic complaint against everything that you like about the government.
The flag represents both the good and bad and just as displaying it doesn't mean you're okay with all the "bad" things, protesting it doesn't make you upset with all the "good" things.

Of course in my dad's case the close-mindedness is probably rooted in some degree of racism based on other conversations I've had with him.
 
Kneeling for the anthem is still paying respect to it, so these people saying its disrespectful can go fuck themselves.
Also, these people are not patriots, they are White nationalists/White supremacists first and patriots second.
They have sided with White supremacy over patriotism over and over and over and over again the last 150 years.
Ask them why they feel kneeling is disrespecting the flag, but Confederate emblems, flags, and monuments are okay in their book.
Duplicitous pieces of garbage, all of them.
 
Nothing to really understand, they're hypocritical idiots all about American jingoism who believe that the various freedoms in America are only reserved for selective groups.
 
DKdGbV5VoAAsH9h.jpg


There is a strong culture in this country that associates the flag with sacrifice and honor. I remember when my veteran dad was told by the homeowners association to take the flag down from his garage and I was afraid he would literally kill someone.

Have some empathy. After all, it's only what we're asking from them, too.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
...is this really a question that you're asking?

I didn't say every country had a "pledge of allegiance." But country oaths are not unusual.

Yes it's a real question. You act like there are myriad countries out there that have practices that are similar to the stuff happening in the USA. Because I very much doubt that.
Unless you meant dictator-run shitholes like North Korea and the like. Plenty of patriotism there.
 

zeemumu

Member
It's not really that hard to see their line of reasoning. People get really patriotic, see someone not doing what they're expected to do during the anthem, take it as a form of disrespect towards the country's ideals instead of realizing that it's actually because people are upset that the country's being run like garbage and probably doesn't warrant whatever respect it garnered in the first place to most, and that a lot of the freedoms offered weren't available for everyone from the beginning.


Or something like that.
 

Zubz

Banned
After an argument with my mom & fiancé, I feel a lot of it is just propaganda reinforcing the idea that not "respect[ing] the flag" is disrespecting veterans, & that disrespecting veterans is one of the most egregious offenses imaginable.

It's an idea that's been reinforced so heavily for them that anyone doing or thinking anything different is unforgivable. It's not necessarily always racism. Sometimes it's just something they're trained to think & feel, but never question.
 

royalan

Member
Yes it's a real question. You act like there are myriad countries out there that have practices that are similar to the stuff happening in the USA. Because I very much doubt that.
Unless you meant dictator-run shitholes like North Korea and the like. Plenty of patriotism there.

What do you think national anthems are?

Of course there are patriotic customs unique to the US, but I think you're exaggerating the effect they have in this situation. As people have pointed out in this thread, this isn't ABOUT patriotism. This is about white supremacy. "Patriotism" is the smoke screen...as it always is.

I mean, I grew up saying the pledge to, most adults in this country did. Only seems to be one group that's consistently "brainwashed" by it though.

After an argument with my mom & fiancé, I feel a lot of it is just propaganda reinforcing the idea that not "respect[ing] the flag" is disrespecting veterans, & that disrespecting veterans is one of the most egregious offenses imaginable.

It's an idea that's been reinforced so heavily for them that anyone doing or thinking anything different is unforgivable. It's not necessarily always racism. Sometimes it's just something they're trained to think & feel, but never question.

...and yet most of these people up in arms about not insulting our veterans voted for a man who ROUTINELY insulted veterans and is now actively trying to screw them over.

This is idea sounds pretty, but it ALWAYS falls apart under the tiniest probing. Donald Trump shouldn't be won a single primary, much less be in the White House right now, if the people who voted for him actually gave a shit about our vets.
 
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