Evolution Studios, Driveclub hurt me
Luckily their content on the season pass and bikes is ludicrous.
Edit: Dont even remind me about that horrific launch of the game, and the ps plus s**t.
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Has Sony mismanaged the Gran Turismo franchise? If so, why?
- Thread starter Kralamoonard
- Start date
Evolution Studios, Driveclub hurt me
Luckily their content on the season pass and bikes is ludicrous.
Edit: Dont even remind me about that horrific launch of the game, and the ps plus s**t.
JetSetRadio
Banned
The ridiculously long dev cycles and releasing 6 on PS3 are obvious answers, it's just a fucked up studio. If the car handling wasn't that good, I'd move on.
Then again, I'm getting exactly what I wanted with GT Sport now surprisingly, an online focused GT as I don't care about SP racers anymore and not something like a tacked-on MP mode.
Then again, I'm getting exactly what I wanted with GT Sport now surprisingly, an online focused GT as I don't care about SP racers anymore and not something like a tacked-on MP mode.
You know, they didn't sell 5 million copies in one month and even two.
How do you find the handling in GTS?
From a project management perspective PD have been appallingly managed. Scope creep, seemingly zero oversight...
From a marketing perspective it's been muddled messaging as to what GTS really is (although arguably as soon as they said it'll be an official FIA e-sport it gave a clear indication of where they were going with it), but in terms of 'hype' GT is like GTA & Mario - it's brand carries it 70% of the way, there's been a constant stream of news about it and the last mile will see blanket paid advertising and buckets of PR.
So...sort of so far, but we can't say anything with any finality as it isn't out yet.
Theonik
Member
As far as we know it's broken 5.1m units as of last year but is still selling quite steadily. Will probably land somewhere closer to 6-7 by the end of its life.
I don't see why I'd have to choose one as the two statements are not mutually exclusive. Sales indicate that the loss of the headphone port is not a dealbreaker for a sufficient amount of people even if it annoys some people, those are a vocal minority it seems, same as the 'actually it's a good thing' crowd I reckon but hey ho.
Yes this doesn't work at all. Forzas release schedule isn't the reason Xbox owners can't get more games.
Chuck Norris
Banned
People wouldn't care that the developers aim for perfection if they actually were. The series is unbelievably outdated in so many ways
David Ricardo
Member
Some times there is a lot of lag in sales when a series starts going down. The last really good GT was GT4. Was exactly what we expected and it delivered.
GT5 was great technically but it started to show a lack of focus. It wanted to do everything: real tracks, fictional tracks, rally, karting, Nascar, city courses... but I don't think it excelled at anything. Also, you had a mix of premium cars, standard cars, premium tracks, standard tracks, fixed weather/time of day, dynamic time of day, cars with premium damage, cars with standard damage... It was a mess.
It is clear as day Kazunori doesn't know how to manage such a big studio.
GT6 I played much less, but it seems to be more of the same but with premium premium cars and standard premium cars, driving a moon rover (wtf?) etc.
Now we get GT Sport with, imho, the worst car selection in GT history. Is basically a GT prologue with too many locations and a rep system. If they expect this game to sell anywhere near the same amount as GT1-5 they have another thing coming.
To me GT1-4 was like a car encyclopedia. You got to know a lot of cars you didn't know about, how expensive they were, whether they were FR, FF, 4WD, you discovered maybe a little japanese car from the eighties with little weight and a lot of power, I got to experience a well modeled Nürburgring for the first time... I enjoyed buying a shitty car, and slowly getting better parts, adding a turbo, then choosing what car to buy next depending on the category... I enjoyed the game.
I bought GT1-5 at launch. I even imported GT4 from Japan to play it earlier. Now I really don't care when GT Sport launches. I have 0 trust in Polyphony digital.
Yes they are! Yamauchi is a rant Sonny closed Evolution that made a good game two years ago but keep pumping money in a mad mans vision of taking photos and working three years on HDR... The list of fucked up decisions is so long that I'm not even going to start.
My dream is an anoucment that Yamauchi retires after GT Sport will be out and somebody like Mark Cerny comes in his place to put Gran Turismo on right tracks.
My dream is an anoucment that Yamauchi retires after GT Sport will be out and somebody like Mark Cerny comes in his place to put Gran Turismo on right tracks.
Fell in love with career mode. Completing license tests felt rewarding, as the core gameplay was so compelling. Every cup I unlocked had courses and cars I wanted to collect for my garage. I raced my favourite tracks over and over again. They peaked with GT3 IMO, even if GT4 was effectively more of the same.
Then came the PS3, and Polyphony's technical prowess seemed to have deserted them. Screen tearing, bland textures as an attempt at realism on below-capable hardware, frame dips. Don't get me wrong, GT5 was still good, but I found it incredibly disappointing compared to previous entries. Suddenly it seems like this studio doesn't have the chops to pull off their vision.
GT Sport looks short of options as someone who favours a lengthy single-player career mode. It's obvious the online focus is not for me, and I accept partial responsibility for not moving with the times. However, I feel that people still associate this series with a lot of content, and less well-informed people are bound to be disappointed when they pick up this game and discover it's not a fully-fledged entry.
Then came the PS3, and Polyphony's technical prowess seemed to have deserted them. Screen tearing, bland textures as an attempt at realism on below-capable hardware, frame dips. Don't get me wrong, GT5 was still good, but I found it incredibly disappointing compared to previous entries. Suddenly it seems like this studio doesn't have the chops to pull off their vision.
GT Sport looks short of options as someone who favours a lengthy single-player career mode. It's obvious the online focus is not for me, and I accept partial responsibility for not moving with the times. However, I feel that people still associate this series with a lot of content, and less well-informed people are bound to be disappointed when they pick up this game and discover it's not a fully-fledged entry.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
How are fighting games a dead genre when Injustice, Smash, and Mortal Kombat all sell millions? With Naruto and DBZ arena fighters not far behind?
GT6 sold more than Forza 5&6 combined, so let's remind ourselves that if we're talking sales GT6's failure is only relative to the other games in the series, not to the rest of the racing sim market.
From a sales perspective that's how many forza games it takes to match one GT game
Would have to strongly disagree with this. If there is one thing GT gets right and does miles better than the competition it's its car model details.
get2sammyb
Member
We need to wait and see how Gran Turismo Sport fares over a couple of years first. I suspect the game will "disappoint" commercially at launch, but I think the game's been built with a long tail in mind.
nephilimdj
Member
Not making a GT Academy game is weirdest miss-step for myself
Polish up a few tracks and make every current model Nissan sold in Japan/N.A/EU/Aus/NZ in it (plus make them fund a large chunk), make it a bit more sim'y
Polish up a few tracks and make every current model Nissan sold in Japan/N.A/EU/Aus/NZ in it (plus make them fund a large chunk), make it a bit more sim'y
My feelings on modern GT may change completely if GTS ends up feeling like something special. I do think they give Yamauchi too little business/product-focused oversight, at least in terms of how they present his efforts during development, and the flippancy of his focus in light of things missing or underdeveloped when the games do release (and obviously the release schedule).
Giant Panda
Member
Absolutely they are mismanaged. It shouldn't take them 4 years to make a game like GT Sport.
Duxxy3
Member
It took 2 years for Playground Games to make Forza Horizon 3. I consider it to be the best racing game of all time. Polyphony taking 4 years for half of a GT game is just pathetic.
Thinking about it, I wonder if they pushed the GT6 release to the PS3/2013 in order to hit the 15th anniversary year. I mean they could have delayed it to the PS4 release year if they really wanted to, right?
Rellik
Member
Since when did scores mean anything? This is a business. All that matters to them is sales. Something Forza doesn't come close to GT in despite being multiplatform.
Please show us your qualifications in game creation. You seem knowledgeable.
And it's completely optional. No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to use it. Options aren't a bad thing unless you're an elitist who thinks there is accomplishment in finishing a hard video game.
shnurgleton
Member
maybe. Sony's been letting Forza eat Polyphony's lunch for years now if you are grading by how visible the franchise is and how many titles they put out. I'd like to see more GT, but not if it compromises what the franchise is all about: dead serious, highly polished, elegant tributes to motorsport.
Nonetheless, I'm firmly on the GT side of the racing sim debate - I don't need one of these games more often than Yamauchi can put them out, and GT just feels more elegant and refined to me for some reason. Forza weirdly just doesn't feel as soulful to me, and the rewind feature in the games I've played feels cheap.
The market for racing sims isn't one that really seems to bite every year like with traditional sports titles, so I think the franchise can bear the long release cycle.
Edit:
I played GTSport back at PAX East last year, and I didn't have to wait at all to get a turn at one of the two stations they had running. The game was brilliant and I'm confident it will live up to my mechanical expectations, but it didn't seem to have the hype of almost any of the other games on the floor.
Double edit:
Is this going to be another "Why doesn't Dark Souls have an easy mode?" debate?
Nonetheless, I'm firmly on the GT side of the racing sim debate - I don't need one of these games more often than Yamauchi can put them out, and GT just feels more elegant and refined to me for some reason. Forza weirdly just doesn't feel as soulful to me, and the rewind feature in the games I've played feels cheap.
The market for racing sims isn't one that really seems to bite every year like with traditional sports titles, so I think the franchise can bear the long release cycle.
Edit:
I played GTSport back at PAX East last year, and I didn't have to wait at all to get a turn at one of the two stations they had running. The game was brilliant and I'm confident it will live up to my mechanical expectations, but it didn't seem to have the hype of almost any of the other games on the floor.
Double edit:
Is this going to be another "Why doesn't Dark Souls have an easy mode?" debate?
Agree with everything here.
GTs take forever to come out and competition if fierce in today's market. Back when GT was primarily the only racing title of its kind on console, I think it was more "acceptable" to let them operate at their own pace, but in the modern day, I don't think it's a good thing. Looks even worse when you have Forza that consistently releases a product of a high quality.
Duxxy3
Member
Development should have been shifted to PS4 as soon as Sony had development kits for the PS4. That's on Sony for allowing Polyphony to continue PS3 development.
phantasmic_glaive
Member
I think is more of they have too..
if they want to pump out gt's like that they'll have to find someone else.
Agreed.
But they had one Sony higher-up claiming it would remain a PS3 title and them revealing it at the 15th anniversary celebration at Silverstone that year...I wonder if they were too adamant on hitting that mark. Perhaps they should have stuck with Prologue for PS3 and gone full GT6 for PS4 so they could still talk about how they released something in their anniversary year? I have no idea.
it needed the PS3 release, otherwise it would have sold like shit due to the PS4's non existent install base (at that time) i totally understand why they released on PS3, it was a system with a userbase of about 70 million at the time, but it really should have been ported across shortly after to capitalize on the new consoles launch... i would have actually bought it if it had a PS4 version.
HueyFreeman
Banned
I always find this a weird argument - its sales are not a metric of success for me, the consumer. Theyre a metric of success for the company. The two can be related, but they can also have nothing to do with each other.
OP, for me, GT has continued to drift further and further from what I loved about with increasing focus on the esoteric and losing focus on critical features - SP experience, sound, trackside visual fidelity - in favour of absurdities like scapes and moon racing. As has been said, Kaz left unchecked is unhealthy, and he should have long, long ago taken lessons from his competitors in a number of domains.
And yes absolutely GT6 should have been a PS4 launch window title.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
There was a thread a while ago to predict the review scores for Project Cars 2, FM7 and GTS, with a comparison chart for past reviews for all of their series.
You can see that Gran Turismo series peaked at GT3, then subsequently drop to 80s range since then. Forza on the other hand, has increased for the past 3 titles. PCars1 and now 2 is consistently getting 80s and 90s.
You can see that Gran Turismo series peaked at GT3, then subsequently drop to 80s range since then. Forza on the other hand, has increased for the past 3 titles. PCars1 and now 2 is consistently getting 80s and 90s.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Quotes like this are bafflingly ignorant.
4 years, covering the span of a generational transition. 3 year development cycles these days are the norm. 4 years for a game with a reasonable amount of modes and content, off the back of a generational transition, is perfectly reasonable.
Sure the game isn't previous GT-levels of content, but PD is a relatively small dev team and emulating the scope of their previous games with GTS would take them 7-8+ years.. GTS was NEVER going to have as many cars, tracks as previous games. The new car and livery customization features mean dictate that; since that system multiplies the content creation requirements considerably. There's a reason why Forza with it's deep car customization options has never matched up to GT games in terms of the number of cars.
The only reasonable blemish on GTS is its online focus, i.e. that it's missing a comprehensive SP offline mode like in previous games (which for me and many others like me is the bread-and-butter of GT games).
If we're going to condemn someone for mismanaging the series, then it all falls at Kaz's feet, imho. Sony being the publisher have arguably given them a lot of leeway (as they do with many of their dev studios), but unlike studios like ND, GG, MM, for example, Kaz and PD have abused the freedom they've been afforded and have (starting with GT5) consistently not really delivered a string of titles that adequately capture the demands of the driving game consumer and GT fans in a lot of areas.
We can all point to the series sales and claim the series is a big series, but critical reception is important to the long term health of a franchise, and so it's undeniable that Kaz and PD have consistently under-delivered. We see this reflected in the review scores as well as the consistently declining series sales since GT3 A-spec. (of course the market contraction of racing gamers is a factor here).
shnurgleton
Member
There was a thread a while ago to predict the review scores for Project Cars 2, FM7 and GTS, with a comparison chart for past reviews for all of their series.
You can see that Gran Turismo series peaked at GT3, then subsequently drop to 80s range since then. Forza on the other hand, has increased for the past 3 titles. PCars1 and now 2 is consistently getting 80s and 90s.
I don't think it's fair to compare any of the Horizon games against GT. Strip those games out and still Forza has the edge, but it's much less of a consistent story than you're suggesting.
Duxxy3
Member
Yeah it was at 70 million, but there wasn't any excitement in that system any longer. There was a ton of excitement for the PS4. 2013 had been great for them. The PS4 reveal went very well. E3 was incredible for them. The Last of Us was amazing. And then the PS4 launched. GT6 on the PS4 would have been a great way to cap off 2013.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Forza 7 has 700+ cars on a 2 year dev cycle though?
Pretty disingenuous to talk the history of sales and mention Forza being multiplatform as if this isn't the first time a full fledged Motorsport is being released on PC.
Well... Yes and No.
You don't 'mismanage' a title that still sells as good as GT5 did between the prologue and actual release.
After that, the only way GT6 makes sense ... is that it was delivered by PD late (shocking!). And for a title that was delivered in a supposedly DOA period (after the new gen arrived), it still sold north of 5m units afaik.
For Sony to justify some serious changes at PD (which are obviously overdue), they need to see a legit decline that can only be explained by the studio mishandling the series.
It's a conundrum ... To implement changes with a justification, Sony needs the series to visibly be harmed other than an outside factor (like a new gen releasing), or risk having the studio director (and probably his staff) walk out to reform and possibly publish huge selling racers outside of the Sony brand.
This being said, nobody should hope for GTS to be bad, obviously. A good game is a good game, regardles if the fans were hoping to have an nth variation on a classic GT experience.
My 2cps.
You don't 'mismanage' a title that still sells as good as GT5 did between the prologue and actual release.
After that, the only way GT6 makes sense ... is that it was delivered by PD late (shocking!). And for a title that was delivered in a supposedly DOA period (after the new gen arrived), it still sold north of 5m units afaik.
For Sony to justify some serious changes at PD (which are obviously overdue), they need to see a legit decline that can only be explained by the studio mishandling the series.
It's a conundrum ... To implement changes with a justification, Sony needs the series to visibly be harmed other than an outside factor (like a new gen releasing), or risk having the studio director (and probably his staff) walk out to reform and possibly publish huge selling racers outside of the Sony brand.
This being said, nobody should hope for GTS to be bad, obviously. A good game is a good game, regardles if the fans were hoping to have an nth variation on a classic GT experience.
My 2cps.
GlamFM
Banned
PD are stubborn when it comes to outsourcing busywork.
They just wont do it.
It slows them down considerably and makes games feel unfinished and outdated when they come out.
Seems like they still have not fully caught up to the HD era.
shortsoptional
Member
Gran Turismo 5 was the last one I played because that's the last one that was available to me (Sold PS3 towards my PS4). I WOULD have bought GT6 if it came to PS4 so that was a missed opportunity/sale.
I'm itching for a new GT, but Sport doesn't sound like it's my kind of game. I'm not in to online racing and it seems like single player content is limited though i'll wait for reviews to give me a final decision.
In summation, yes. I think they have handled GT poorly. At least for this generation. I think they could have avoided some of the negativity fairly simply by placing GT6 on PS4. It hasn't been 7 years since the last GT was released, but it feels like that to me because GT6 wasn't brought over.
Now I'm curious how much longer i'll be waiting for GT7 or if that's even coming. Maybe GT Sport is successful enough to keep it going as the dreaded 'games as a service' model. I absolutely adored Driveclub, but we all know the story there. So as of right now, it's looking like Project Cars 2 might be something i'll try down the line if I want my racing fix. That or play Forza when I eventually get a One S.
I'm itching for a new GT, but Sport doesn't sound like it's my kind of game. I'm not in to online racing and it seems like single player content is limited though i'll wait for reviews to give me a final decision.
In summation, yes. I think they have handled GT poorly. At least for this generation. I think they could have avoided some of the negativity fairly simply by placing GT6 on PS4. It hasn't been 7 years since the last GT was released, but it feels like that to me because GT6 wasn't brought over.
Now I'm curious how much longer i'll be waiting for GT7 or if that's even coming. Maybe GT Sport is successful enough to keep it going as the dreaded 'games as a service' model. I absolutely adored Driveclub, but we all know the story there. So as of right now, it's looking like Project Cars 2 might be something i'll try down the line if I want my racing fix. That or play Forza when I eventually get a One S.
it would have also flopped in sales if it was only on that system. i mean about 7% of all PS3 owners bought GT6. how many do you think it would have sold on PS4 with its launch userbase of zero? 10% of all PS4 owners after a year still wouldn't have amounted to the same sales figures. GT6 had the best chance on PS3. it was just unfortunate it sat so close to the PS4 launch and it wasn't a cross gen title.
at the end of the day it has still sold almost 5 million copies on PS3. it's hardly a failure. it's just a failure compared to its previous entries, hell, GT5 prologue sold more than it. but for me GT5 prologue represents what GTS could be. it's the first taste of GT on the latest console...prologue last gen proved there is a legitimate thirst for that.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Question isnt why. It's how.
1) Releasing GT6 on the PS3 despite knowing they were going to have a barebones launch. It should have been a PS4 game designed from the ground up on the PS4.
2) Letting Kaz do whatever he wants. 4 years of flying around the world, driving expensive cars, palling around with superstars and partying and no real single player mode. The guy should've been fired for abusing company expenses. sounds hilarious but its true.
3) Firing the wrong studio. they shut down Evolution studios after mismanaging them to oblivion. look at the GT beta. its been going on forever. DriveClub didnt even get a beta and was obviously a mess at launch.
shortsoptional
Member
I'll put it this way.
I've been playing GT games since the first entry and I forgot it was coming out til I saw this thread.
I've been playing GT games since the first entry and I forgot it was coming out til I saw this thread.
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