-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Mass Effect Andromeda's poor handling of LGBT
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
Is it as bad as the initial reports, e.g.
a fling with an off-ship NPC and a truncated romance with the engineer?
Also transferring my post from bottom of the last page to here.
It's worth pointing out that Bioware actively tries to engage with their LGBT fanbase. They give talks at GaymerX regularly and have been open and vocal about their commitment to LGBT representation in their games. That's part of the reason this is such a painful backslide.
A friend of mine who was horribly disappointed by the lack of M/M romance in the original trilogy is really dejected over this. He's met people from Bioware, he loves their games and writing, and when we played through the trilogy a year or two back he kinda accepted, "okay, I'll play as FemShep, and I'm sure down the line they'll get better at this." Hearing his options have been limited to a pair of NPCs - one of whom seems fairly minor - has really put him off the game. Said it felt a bit like a slap in the face.
Subway Diet
Member
What happened BioWare?
Seriously. First the EA Access trial impressions, then the reviews and now this? Going to wait on this to come down in price, I think.
Oh shit! Turned on my PS4 to cancel the pre-order, only to have it start the automatic pre-load. I think that means I can't get a refund now?
Seriously. First the EA Access trial impressions, then the reviews and now this? Going to wait on this to come down in price, I think.
Oh shit! Turned on my PS4 to cancel the pre-order, only to have it start the automatic pre-load. I think that means I can't get a refund now?
Darkstorne
Member
Seriously guys? First of all, it's a frickin' trophy. Second, this is a role playing game, why not roleplay as a bi or straight character in one of those three playthroughs (I happily went gay for Dorian in DA:I)? Third and most importantly by far, this is a developer who bends over backwards to create romance options for the LGBT community and have been doing a phenomenal job of it for years now.
Do you really want Bioware to view characters as statistics, creating them to check off an equal number of boxes catering to different player's sexual orientations, race, religious beliefs, etc? Or would you rather they focus on creating a diverse cast of characters that, although still encompassing these ideals, are mainly created with their unique character in mind? My biggest problem with DA2 was that the majority of characters felt like their sexual identity was defined by my sexual identity. They weren't their own character, they were whatever I wanted them to be, and that cheapened the end result. I wasn't getting to know them, I was molding them. I really feel like they hit the right balance with Inquisition and Andromeda, with most characters having their own preferences and not just mirror-matching whatever the player's feelings were all for the sake of inclusion at the expense of immersion.
The point isn't the achievement. (In fact that should really be de-emphasized in the OP.) The problem is that the writing in Andromeda in both quantity and more importantly quality is a letdown for gay/bi male characters, and the only trans character we've seen so far is questionably written. This in turn leads to (perhaps reasonable) skepticism over the rationale for the large number of lesbian romances.
I agree that romances shouldn't be a spreadsheet/checklist/counting game, and I agree that having a party of "playersexuals" undermines the idea of sexual orientation as a character trait. I think if ME:A featured even a single gay male squad romance that had as much content and focus as, say, Cora's romance, people would feel a lot better. But that's just not what there is.
You can appreciate Bioware's past work in this field while still being puzzled and concerned when they start backsliding.
Darkstorne
Member
Fair enough, but the sub-par writing is affecting everything in this game. It is absolutely horrendous. We all know about the "religious" conversation, but I was face-palming most of all at the conversation with Suvi about her science paper that got turned into a sit-com quality joke about science being boring, in a game that pretends your ideal role in Andromeda is a peacekeeping scientific mission.
I'm not surprised the bad writing also extends to romance, but let's not pretend LGBT players are suffering in particular. It's still pretty much the only AAA studio that makes an effort here.
It is that bad.
Honestly speaking this is even worse than those games/TV shows/movies decades ago which actively ignores the existence of LGBT community. M/M relationships exists in ME:A just for the sake of having it, in which the characters are introduced with little to none development and involvement in story; what's worse is the abundance of F/F romantic scenes, which by comparison with the black screens we have in M/M romantic scenes could only be explained as a fan service Bioware made for the stereotypical straight male gamer profile they have in mind. It is indeed a insult to us all: marginalizing the gay males, objectifying the lesbians and diminishing the straight gamers.
I might be reading too much into it, but Bioware does need to know this is not how you show how inclusive you are as a studio. You may follow the narrative and design the characters accordingly (as in the Witcher 3); or you may give fair treatment to all the possibilities (as in the Sims 2, 3 and 4). Don't play favorites, then throw in a few cobbled NPCs to balance things out.
It's true that ME:A's having rough writing all around, and I'll concede the point that there's something to be said for focusing on companies that never even touch LGBT themes rather than Bioware.
But conversely, their work in this area makes the shortcomings sting that much more. As I said above, Bioware has a vocal track record in this field, and so LGBT players can feel like Bioware games are one of the few spaces where they have a shot to be represented just as well as straight players. Andromeda regresses in this regard not just relative to DA:I, but also in the fact that even for Andromeda it's looking like the M/M relationships and trans representation is rough, to the point that it's starting to lead people to ask if it was even a real priority. (See above.) Maybe that's unfair, but people are hurting right now.
Getting the worst of a bad lot after feeling like things were starting to get better isn't a good feeling.
Darkstorne
Member
Yeah I can definitely understand the sentiment. It's just important to recognize that this isn't exclusive to the LGBT writing, it's awful writing across the board. It's definitely okay to be upset about, so long as this doesn't evolve into "Bioware ignored LGBT communities and we're suffering the most in this game". The LGBT writing absolutely sucks. As does pretty much all of Andromeda's writing. LGBT characters are a symptom of the bigger problem.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
I'll leave it to others to determine whether it's deadnaming or not, but I will say it's sloppy writing. It doesn't seem like the writers could figure out any other way to jam in there that "OH YEAH IM TRANS BTW" without making it part of the character's reason for being on the ship.
Here are my thoughts on the matter:
The trophy is garbage if it forces some people to play the game in a way they don't want to but not others. It should either be achievable by being exclusively gay or straight or required to do both in all cases.
Gay male Ryder having less (maybe even no?) fleshed out characters to romance is a huge oversight.
I was not familiar with the concept of deadnaming until this thread. Now that I know what it is I can understand why it is a problem. That being said though, it strikes me more as a poorly written attempt at being inclusive which unfortunately misses the mark and comes across as offensive.
All of that being said though, while I recognize these are issues which should be addressed I think that the mere fact BioWare attempts to handle them deserves some recognition. Maybe some would rather have these things just not be in the game but to me it looks like they made an effort. They should've done better but I think that with a lot of this stuff they probably didn't consider it as they were making it.
You're still playing a game with a player character who can be a homosexual male and have that choice represented in the story. You still encounter a transgender character who maybe is a bit quick to share intimate details of her pre-transition life. It's not perfect, and it isn't 'good enough' but I do think that BioWare has at least made an effort here even if they bungled up some aspects of it. Hopefully they improve upon this in patches, DLC, or future sequels.
The trophy is garbage if it forces some people to play the game in a way they don't want to but not others. It should either be achievable by being exclusively gay or straight or required to do both in all cases.
Gay male Ryder having less (maybe even no?) fleshed out characters to romance is a huge oversight.
I was not familiar with the concept of deadnaming until this thread. Now that I know what it is I can understand why it is a problem. That being said though, it strikes me more as a poorly written attempt at being inclusive which unfortunately misses the mark and comes across as offensive.
All of that being said though, while I recognize these are issues which should be addressed I think that the mere fact BioWare attempts to handle them deserves some recognition. Maybe some would rather have these things just not be in the game but to me it looks like they made an effort. They should've done better but I think that with a lot of this stuff they probably didn't consider it as they were making it.
You're still playing a game with a player character who can be a homosexual male and have that choice represented in the story. You still encounter a transgender character who maybe is a bit quick to share intimate details of her pre-transition life. It's not perfect, and it isn't 'good enough' but I do think that BioWare has at least made an effort here even if they bungled up some aspects of it. Hopefully they improve upon this in patches, DLC, or future sequels.
That would be more acceptable if this wasn't Bioware. This is a significant step backwards for them from their last 3 games (DA:I, ME3, DA2). This is a company that engages with the LGBT community a lot, makes a big thing about its diversity, and is usually one of the champions for LGBT people in gaming.
Yet suddenly their latest game takes some massive backwards steps compared to previous games, and to be frank looks like it was made for the straight male audience only and everything else is an afterthought quickly dumped into the game because it has to be there. You don't get credit for trying when your efforts are flat out worse than a game you made 6 years ago.
Yet suddenly their latest game takes some massive backwards steps compared to previous games, and to be frank looks like it was made for the straight male audience only and everything else is an afterthought quickly dumped into the game because it has to be there. You don't get credit for trying when your efforts are flat out worse than a game you made 6 years ago.
Well, not to split hairs here but this is BioWare Montreal. I believe this is their first game. Still, you're right that the brand has been better about this stuff in the past so they deserve criticism for it. Let's just keep perspective though yeah?
Honestly after playing the game tonight and experiencing the multiplayer, I could not give two flying fucks about Bioware's attempts to be a "progressive" game developer. Just develop a fucking working game with no animation glitches, a decent story like the original Star Wars: KotOR, and a fucking working multiplayer mode for Jesus fuck's sake. This shit is infuriating.
It matters a lot to some people, and it's not like they spent all their budget on gay romances and that's why the animation sucks. ME3 was the first time I got to play as a gay male lead in a big AAA game in my 30+ years of gaming, and that was a huge thing for me (even at my age!). Representaion matters, and it's really sad and depressing to see one of our champions in the gaming industry seemingly turn their back on that (and their own history).
Darkstorne
Member
COMPLETELY disagree and I'm really worried that threads focusing on specific problems with the writing quality like this out of context of all the other writing problems are only going to further spread this misconception.
Yes, the LGBT writing is awful. But it's not like the rest of the writing is better. It's ALL atrociously bad, and as a result the LGBT side of things has suffered like everything else. It's not like this is a game with Bioware-quality writing in all regards except for LGBT romances, which a lot of people in this thread are suggesting.
My point isn't about the quality of the writing (I agree with you here). It's the fact that gay men have no LI squad mates, and the two possibly gay male romances are *significantly* shorter than the other options available, and both use a cheesy 'fade to black' scene rather than the detailed scenes shown for other sexualities. Which again is a step back from DA:I and ME3.
It's undeniable that vastly less time and resources went into m/m pairings than the other options.
From what the anonymous developer thread talked about and how Manveer Heir left the company as soon as his contract was up, I have a bad taste in my mouth. I hope the sequels are able to continue the original triloogy's vision and pick up the broken pieces left from this game. I really do. It's depressing to see a beloved franchise fall like this and infuriates me to no end.
I played an hour of single player and experienced none of the animation glitches or fuckery that everyone was lambasting though so that's a plus. They just need to work on their multiplayer P2P net-code and get actual servers. We know damn well they can afford them.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Given how non-specific the romance plots/dialogue tend to be in these games, I don't really see the point in not just making every character that has a romance be open to all versions of the Ryder character. It's not like there's *other* characters in the game having their own romances with these NPCs, so the sexual orientation of any given romanceable NPC only applies to the PC anyway.
The NPCs in question aren't defined by their sexuality (or at least, past Bioware characters haven't been), so it's just this arbitrary, essentially meaningless flag that could be set up to allow all Ryders access to all romances, and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of story.
The NPCs in question aren't defined by their sexuality (or at least, past Bioware characters haven't been), so it's just this arbitrary, essentially meaningless flag that could be set up to allow all Ryders access to all romances, and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of story.
Actually in both Me:3 and DA:I if you don't romance certain characters they will form a relationship with other squad mates (Tali and Garrus, and Dorian and Ironbull respectively).
There's also something to be said for having some dialogue or acknowledgement of the differences between a gay or straight relationship, rather than just the same dialogue in the same scenes with no gender references at all.
*sigh*
At least read the OP properly before posting stuff like that, please. This is not about the quality of the writing. It's about all of these things combined:
The trans issue can be attributed to poor writing, of course, but that still leaves all of the above issues with the M/M romance options.
C'mon man the m/f sex scene gets some of the best animation work this game has to offer while the m/m sex scene gets a fade-to-black. It's not a case of it being bad because it's all bad.
I hate this idea that we can't criticise LGBT writing in a game unless all the other writing is perfect. Nothing else gets that treatment.
It's a real shame that ME:A continued the series' issues of snubbing M/M romance. Having F/F options since the first game but taking till the third to introduce M/M options was bad enough, but this game doesn't even have the baggage of working with pre-existing characters. There is no excuse for the lack of M/M content in the game, and it should be criticised.
It's a real shame that ME:A continued the series' issues of snubbing M/M romance. Having F/F options since the first game but taking till the third to introduce M/M options was bad enough, but this game doesn't even have the baggage of working with pre-existing characters. There is no excuse for the lack of M/M content in the game, and it should be criticised.
Right? HEY GUYS, DONT CRITICISE THE FACES BECAUSE THE GRASS LOOKS S%$&!!
Lister
Banned
It's more like: Criticize the faces all you want, but don't act like the animations are superb and of incredibly high quality in contrast, because they are not. It sucks that the gay/bi writing sucks, but so does most all the rest of the writing. It's not some conspiracy against gay/bi characters/players.
Please, if you can't read the OP properly, at least read the last couple of posts in the thread, then you would know that this is not just about the quality of the writing. (But also, no one is suggesting that this is an actual "conspiracy against gay/bi characters/players".)
But this is not about writing exclusively. Apparently a lot of care went in realizing a number of romances for a straight player, with more interactions, unique scenes and a lot more choices. Animating Cora's butt or a steamy hot alien girl on girl sex scene had all their attention. On the contrary, the only option for a gay Scott Ryder is a non squad mate, created with their shitty editor, with obviously less interactions and, for those who care, a lame fade to black sex scene at the end.
And I'll leave the deadnaming to someone that knows best, but apparently it's something that's really frowned upon and should have been avoided. Not in a "wow this writing sucks right?" way but in a "this is straight up offensive for part of the community' way.
The fact you can't complete te achievement as a gay male character really makes it seem like they don't care.
But, worst than that, seem to be the romance options. Not only are they slim for gay men but also the fact that they are with side characters and that they don't show sex like the other options seems like an afterthought. They should have made all romance options equally interesting but it seems like the male gay romances were given no care at all.
But, worst than that, seem to be the romance options. Not only are they slim for gay men but also the fact that they are with side characters and that they don't show sex like the other options seems like an afterthought. They should have made all romance options equally interesting but it seems like the male gay romances were given no care at all.
Monocle
Member
Bend over backwards? Bioware includes the bare minimum of representation. Their efforts are remarkable only in light of the sorry state of the rest of the medium with regard to LGBT characters and relationships. Asking for equal representation is a far cry from wanting identities reduced to statistics, wow.
Where's your concern for the drastic overrepresentation of straight white men? Why is it that these objections only ever seem to pop up when vastly underrepresented groups point out opportunities for devs to do better? (That's kind of a rhetorical question. The bias is pretty clear.)
How about we wait for more than, say, one queer protagonist in a mainstream game (Ellie from The Last of Us) before making disingenuous arguments that try to paint lack of representation as an artistic choice or whatever.
potatohead
Member
The romance has always been terrible in mass effect and yet still there is something more to add to its list of problems
What specifically do you mean by "garbage content"?
Let's not, because LGBT representation in games is a slightly different topic than whether a characters facial animation looks dumb.
It is possible to be upset over two separate things at once!
that is one way of looking at it. Another would be that 2/3 male love interests support gay pairings and 4/5 female love interests do, leaving only 2/8 people they didn't make bi (using the OP's numbers), one woman and one guy
xrnzaaas
Member
BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake imo. Now people want all sexuality options to have the same amount of content and BioWare can't spare additional resources on less popular variations (also introducing even more gay/bisexual characters would make the game look even more silly).
Glass Shark
Banned
The real shame is that in a game set so far in the future, BioWare could have solved all this by just completely throwing out notions of sexual orientation and gender and made everything extremely fluid. Honestly the idea that 800 years from now a majority of guys are still going to be like "Have sex with another dude? Ew, gross." is kinda laughable.
Like, fuckin' Saints Row already solved this shit, lmao
Like, fuckin' Saints Row already solved this shit, lmao
Please, do go into detail.
Garrett Hawke
Member
...
Indeed. In my ideal space future everyone would be closer to the middle of the Kinsey Scale and the notion of genders would be all but abolished.
I can understand why they wouldn't want to rock the boat too much with this type of world building (not to mention how much extra thought they'd have to put into original story telling) but would be cool to see this realized.
NickWright
Member
I wanted to make this thread yesterday about the image in the OP. I don't own ME:A yet but I'm super disappointed in Bioware introducing a trans character who deadnames themself as an introduction.I'm not even trans and I know that it's not a thing that's done, so I don't see how this made it out of a dialog meeting, honestly.
Monocle
Member
Just for giggles, would you mind telling us what you think the purpose of LGBT representation is and why some people care about it?
The Artisan
Member
well, at least the options are there.
I remember there was a Muslim character in the OG trilogy that everybody loved to hate.
I remember there was a Muslim character in the OG trilogy that everybody loved to hate.
I don't think we had any illusions regarding straight guys getting more options than anyone else, that was to be expected. However, we also expected the few M/M romances that we've gotten to actually be comparable in length and quality to the other types of romances and that we'd get one gay/bi male squadmate (seeing as straight guys got three squadmate LIs and straight and gay women two each). And sure, that's partly because BioWare has had a relatively good track record regarding LGBT+ representation (Dragon Age team moreso than the Mass Effect team but they were starting to catch up in ME3) but it's not like BioWare gets nothing out of it. It's good for PR and they've got a pretty large LGBT+ fanbase who buy their games, keep the hype machine running, create fan art and fan fiction (that's not to say that non-LGBT+ fans don't do those things, as well, but the more the merrier), etc. I'd be willing to bet that being LGBT+ friendly has done them more good than bad in terms of sales, as well.
a) i know this probably wasn't your intention but the phrasing of this makes it sound like the game is already "silly" for including lgbt characters
b) lgbt people exist so why the fuck would introducing more of them making the game "silly"????????????????????
c) this is a really dumb post