I've seen all the m/m content in MEA now.
GDI, BioWare.
Seriously guys? First of all, it's a frickin' trophy. Second, this is a role playing game, why not roleplay as a bi or straight character in one of those three playthroughs (I happily went gay for Dorian in DA:I)? Third and most importantly by far, this is a developer who bends over backwards to create romance options for the LGBT community and have been doing a phenomenal job of it for years now.
Do you really want Bioware to view characters as statistics, creating them to check off an equal number of boxes catering to different player's sexual orientations, race, religious beliefs, etc? Or would you rather they focus on creating a diverse cast of characters that, although still encompassing these ideals, are mainly created with their unique character in mind? My biggest problem with DA2 was that the majority of characters felt like their sexual identity was defined by my sexual identity. They weren't their own character, they were whatever I wanted them to be, and that cheapened the end result. I wasn't getting to know them, I was molding them. I really feel like they hit the right balance with Inquisition and Andromeda, with most characters having their own preferences and not just mirror-matching whatever the player's feelings were all for the sake of inclusion at the expense of immersion.
The point isn't the achievement. (In fact that should really be de-emphasized in the OP.) The problem is that the writing in Andromeda in both quantity and more importantly quality is a letdown for gay/bi male characters, and the only trans character we've seen so far is questionably written.
To be fair, a lot of things in Andromeda seem poorly written :/The point isn't the achievement. (In fact that should really be de-emphasized in the OP.) The problem is that the writing in Andromeda in both quantity and more importantly quality is a letdown for gay/bi male characters, and the only trans character we've seen so far is questionably written. This in turn leads to (perhaps reasonable) skepticism over the rationale for the large number of lesbian romances.
I agree that romances shouldn't be a spreadsheet/checklist/counting game, and I agree that having a party of "playersexuals" undermines the idea of sexual orientation as a character trait. I think if ME:A featured even a single gay male squad romance that had as much content and focus as, say, Cora's romance, people would feel a lot better. But that's just not what there is.
You can appreciate Bioware's past work in this field while still being puzzled and concerned when they start backsliding.
Is it as bad as the initial reports, e.g.a fling with an off-ship NPC and a truncated romance with the engineer?
Also transferring my post from last page to here.
It's worth pointing out that Bioware actively tries to engage with their LGBT fanbase. They give talks at GaymerX regularly and have been open and vocal about their commitment to LGBT representation in their games. That's part of the reason this is such a painful backslide.
A friend of mine who was horribly disappointed by the lack of M/M romance in the original trilogy is really dejected over this. He's met people from Bioware, he loves their games and writing, and when we played through the trilogy a year or two back he kinda accepted, "okay, I'll play as FemShep, and I'm sure down the line they'll get better at this." Hearing his options have been limited to a pair of NPCs - one of whom seems fairly minor - has really put him off the game. Said it felt a bit like a slap in the face.
Fair enough, but the sub-par writing is affecting everything in this game. It is absolutely horrendous. We all know about the "religious" conversation, but I was face-palming most of all at the conversation with Suvi about her science paper that got turned into a sit-com quality joke about science being boring, in a game that pretends your ideal role in Andromeda is a peacekeeping scientific mission.
I'm not surprised the bad writing also extends to romance, but let's not pretend LGBT players are suffering in particular. It's still pretty much the only AAA studio that makes an effort here.
To be fair, a lot of things in Andromeda seem poorly written :/
It's true that ME:A's having rough writing all around, and I'll concede the point that there's something to be said for focusing on companies that never even touch LGBT themes rather than Bioware.
But conversely, their work in this area makes the shortcomings sting that much more. As I said above, Bioware has a vocal track record in this field, and so LGBT players can feel like Bioware games are one of the few spaces where they have a shot to be represented just as well as straight players. Andromeda regresses in this regard not just relative to DA:I, but also in the fact that even for Andromeda it's looking like the M/M relationships and trans representation is rough, to the point that it's starting to lead people to ask if it was even a real priority. (See above.) Maybe that's unfair, but people are hurting right now.
Getting the worst of a bad lot after feeling like things were starting to get better isn't a good feeling.
Is it?
"Hi, tell me how you ended up on this ship"
"Well I'm trans and I used to be named so-and-so."
Yeah, no. They did a far better job with Krem in DA:I regarding his being trans and how that was addressed than this.
Still, I'll wait and see how that particular character is written in the full game.
That would be more acceptable if this wasn't Bioware. This is a significant step backwards for them from their last 3 games (DA:I, ME3, DA2). This is a company that engages with the LGBT community a lot, makes a big thing about its diversity, and is usually one of the champions for LGBT people in gaming.
Yet suddenly their latest game takes some massive backwards steps compared to previous games, and to be frank looks like it was made for the straight male audience only and everything else is an afterthought quickly dumped into the game because it has to be there. You don't get credit for trying when your efforts are flat out worse than a game you made 6 years ago.
Honestly after playing the game tonight and experiencing the multiplayer, I could not give two flying fucks about Bioware's attempts to be a "progressive" game developer. Just develop a fucking working game with no animation glitches, a decent story like the original Star Wars: KotOR, and a fucking working multiplayer mode for Jesus fuck's sake. This shit is infuriating.
That would be more acceptable if this wasn't Bioware. This is a significant step backwards for them from their last 3 games (DA:I, ME3, DA2). This is a company that engages with the LGBT community a lot, makes a big thing about its diversity, and is usually one of the champions for LGBT people in gaming.
Yet suddenly their latest game takes some massive backwards steps compared to previous games, and to be frank looks like it was made for the straight male audience only and everything else is an afterthought quickly dumped into the game because it has to be there. You don't get credit for trying when your efforts are flat out worse than a game you made 6 years ago.
COMPLETELY disagree and I'm really worried that threads focusing on specific problems with the writing quality like this out of context of all the other writing problems are only going to further spread this misconception.
Yes, the LGBT writing is awful. But it's not like the rest of the writing is better. It's ALL atrociously bad, and as a result the LGBT side of things has suffered like everything else. It's not like this is a game with Bioware-quality writing in all regards except for LGBT romances, which a lot of people in this thread are suggesting.
From what the anonymous developer thread talked about and how Manveer Heir left the company as soon as his contract was up, I have a bad taste in my mouth. I hope the sequels are able to continue the original triloogy's vision and pick up the broken pieces left from this game. I really do. It's depressing to see a beloved franchise fall like this and infuriates me to no end.It matters a lot to some people, and it's not like they spent all their budget on gay romances and that's why the animation sucks. ME3 was the first time I got to play as a gay male lead in a big AAA game in my 30+ years of gaming, and that was a huge thing for me (even at my age!). Representaion matters, and it's really sad and depressing to see one of our champions in the gaming industry seemingly turn their back on that (and their own history).
Given how non-specific the romance plots/dialogue tend to be in these games, I don't really see the point in not just making every character that has a romance be open to all versions of the Ryder character. It's not like there's *other* characters in the game having their own romances with these NPCs, so the sexual orientation of any given romanceable NPC only applies to the PC anyway.
The NPCs in question aren't defined by their sexuality (or at least, past Bioware characters haven't been), so it's just this arbitrary, essentially meaningless flag that could be set up to allow all Ryders access to all romances, and it wouldn't change a thing in terms of story.
COMPLETELY disagree and I'm really worried that threads focusing on specific problems with the writing quality like this out of context of all the other writing problems are only going to further spread this misconception.
Yes, the LGBT writing is awful. But it's not like the rest of the writing is better. It's ALL atrociously bad, and as a result the LGBT side of things has suffered like everything else. It's not like this is a game with Bioware-quality writing in all regards except for LGBT romances, which a lot of people in this thread are suggesting.
- No M/M squadmate romance (squadmates generally get more dialogue/character development, etc. plus you get to take them on missions, obviously)
- All M/M romance options have character creator faces rather than unique ones
- M/M romances have far less content than many of the non-M/M ones
- M/M sex scenes are fade-to-black with only above-the-waist nudity, whereas many of the non-M/M sex scenes are longer, fully animated and show naked butts and breasts.
- Gay Scott has the least romance options out of any gender/orientation combination
- Gay men are the only players who'll need to play as a different gender/orientation to get that romance achievement
COMPLETELY disagree and I'm really worried that threads focusing on specific problems with the writing quality like this out of context of all the other writing problems are only going to further spread this misconception.
Yes, the LGBT writing is awful. But it's not like the rest of the writing is better. It's ALL atrociously bad, and as a result the LGBT side of things has suffered like everything else. It's not like this is a game with Bioware-quality writing in all regards except for LGBT romances, which a lot of people in this thread are suggesting.
The problem is that the writing in Andromeda in both quantity and more importantly quality is a letdown for g̶a̶y̶/̶b̶i̶ ̶m̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶s̶,̶ EVERYONE
Right? HEY GUYS, DONT CRITICISE THE FACES BECAUSE THE GRASS LOOKS S%$&!!I hate this idea that we can't criticise LGBT writing in a game unless all the other writing is perfect. Nothing else gets that treatment.
Right? HEY GUYS, DONT CRITICISE THE FACES BECAUSE THE GRASS LOOKS S%$&!!
It's more like: Criticize the faces all you want, but don't act like the animations are superb and of incredibly high quality in contrast, because they are not. It sucks that the gay/bi writing sucks, but so does most all the rest of the writing. It's not some conspiracy against gay/bi characters/players.
COMPLETELY disagree and I'm really worried that threads focusing on specific problems with the writing quality like this out of context of all the other writing problems are only going to further spread this misconception.
Yes, the LGBT writing is awful. But it's not like the rest of the writing is better. It's ALL atrociously bad, and as a result the LGBT side of things has suffered like everything else. It's not like this is a game with Bioware-quality writing in all regards except for LGBT romances, which a lot of people in this thread are suggesting.
Bend over backwards? Bioware includes the bare minimum of representation. Their efforts are remarkable only in light of the sorry state of the rest of the medium with regard to LGBT characters and relationships. Asking for equal representation is a far cry from wanting identities reduced to statistics, wow.Seriously guys? First of all, it's a frickin' trophy. Second, this is a role playing game, why not roleplay as a bi or straight character in one of those three playthroughs (I happily went gay for Dorian in DA:I)? Third and most importantly by far, this is a developer who bends over backwards to create romance options for the LGBT community and have been doing a phenomenal job of it for years now.
Do you really want Bioware to view characters as statistics, creating them to check off an equal number of boxes catering to different player's sexual orientations, race, religious beliefs, etc? Or would you rather they focus on creating a diverse cast of characters that, although still encompassing these ideals, are mainly created with their unique character in mind? My biggest problem with DA2 was that the majority of characters felt like their sexual identity was defined by my sexual identity. They weren't their own character, they were whatever I wanted them to be, and that cheapened the end result. I wasn't getting to know them, I was molding them. I really feel like they hit the right balance with Inquisition and Andromeda, with most characters having their own preferences and not just mirror-matching whatever the player's feelings were all for the sake of inclusion at the expense of immersion.
Lets dial back the specifics on why this game offends certain groups of people and change focus to why we're being fed this garbage content to begin with.
Lets dial back the specifics on why this game offends certain groups of people and change focus to why we're being fed this garbage content to begin with.
2 out of 7 romance options being m/m seems pretty good to me.
Plays a bit into the "all women are bisexual" narrative more than anything which is more problematic imo.
(also introducing even more gay/bisexual characters would make the game look even more silly).
BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake
The real shame is that in a game set so far in the future, BioWare could have solved all this by just completely throwing out notions of sexual orientation and gender and made everything extremely fluid. Honestly the idea that 800 years from now a majority of guys are still going to be like "Have sex with another dude? Ew, gross." is kinda laughable.
Like, fuckin' Saints Row already solved this shit, lmao
BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake imo. Now people want all sexuality options to have the same amount of content and BioWare can't spare additional resources on less popular variations (also introducing even more gay/bisexual characters would make the game look even more silly).
Just for giggles, would you mind telling us what you think the purpose of LGBT representation is and why some people care about it?BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake imo. Now people want all sexuality options to have the same amount of content and BioWare can't spare additional resources on less popular variations (also introducing even more gay/bisexual characters would make the game look even more silly).
BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake imo. Now people want all sexuality options to have the same amount of content and BioWare can't spare additional resources on less popular variations.
BioWare has made their games "LBGT friendly" in the past (especially in terms of potential romance candidates) and that was their mistake imo. Now people want all sexuality options to have the same amount of content and BioWare can't spare additional resources on less popular variations (also introducing even more gay/bisexual characters would make the game look even more silly).