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nilbog21 · May 31, 2011

i bet they remove sentries tho, unit fucks everything up balance wise

edit: why are people so surprised they will be removing units? sc2 as it stands is EXTREMELY balanced, but the problem is the game is a bit stale (in certain matchups) and the only way to fix this is completely revamp the game by removing/adding units. this is good news folks...unless the games sucks, but then we'll still have wings of lib

B-Dex · May 31, 2011

Wait a minute....

Didn't they say SC2 was going to originally have all 3 campaigns and then decided to split it up? How come they just started ramping up work on the expansion in Jan.?

Sure you can say they made all the campaigns beefier etc... but it shouldn't take them more than a year to crank out an expansion that has minimal new units. Most of the hard work is already done.

At least they are still a bit quicker than Valve. :trollface

Tenks · May 31, 2011

B-Dex said:
Wait a minute....

Didn't they say SC2 was going to originally have all 3 campaigns and then decided to split it up? How come they just started ramping up work on the expansion in Jan.?

Sure you can say they made all the campaigns beefier etc... but it shouldn't take them more than a year to crank out an expansion that has minimal new units. Most of the hard work is already done.

At least they are still a bit quicker than Valve. :trollface

I imagine they wanted to start sooner but since BNET2 was so horribly buggy I'm sure most of their coding effort had to be shifted towards fixing that instead of new stuff.

DieH@rd · May 31, 2011

Im bummed that zerg campain will have only 20 missions. Fuck this expansion shit, i want equal campaign lenghts for all 3 races.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

DieH@rd said:
Im bummed that zerg campain will have only 20 missions. Fuck this expansion shit, i want equal campaign lenghts for all 3 races.

The first lot of Terran missions are quite short, I imagine they'll cut out the filler for HotS, it'll be a shame though if the game is a lot smaller.

Mr Cola · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
The first lot of Terran missions are quite short, I imagine they'll cut out the filler for HotS, it'll be a shame though if the game is a lot smaller.

Im was sad when i hearrd this at first but, having given it some thought some things come to mind

* 20 Good missions would be worth it
* They actually said "about 20, maybe more" they havent made all the missions and admitted before that they had not decided on what units to use in future missions, indicating they have a rough story arch to go over about 20 missions, but since they havent created all 20 im sure there is alot of flexibility. Half of the Q&A was them saying that they had started work, but still had alot to figure out, with that in mind 20, as i took it, is the minimum we can expect.
* As an addendum to number one you have to take into account how much they learned from WOL, so there shouldnt be any real filler missions, so your kinda getting the same amount of good content.

Thats my 0.2 anyway, plus remember the new upgrades system has been vastly revamped and increased, kerrigan for example can only take 1 skillset into each mission, add to this the evolution of the zerg units once you can mutate them, once you mutate a unit one of two ways you cant go back in another mission and revert to the other option, so this thing has alot of creative replayability.

Syphon Filter · May 31, 2011

Dam why would they take some guys out to add more?

davepoobond · May 31, 2011

i wonder if they'll allow us to play "wol" mode or "hots" mode in multiplayer or if the multiplayer game will be unified.

i imagine they would probably not want to give free units to people who dont upgrade, but i guess it doesnt matter.

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

davepoobond said:
i wonder if they'll allow us to play "wol" mode or "hots" mode in multiplayer or if the multiplayer game will be unified.

i imagine they would probably not want to give free units to people who dont upgrade, but i guess it doesnt matter.

I'd assume it'd just work like SC1 where you can just choose to play the base game or the expansion.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

ultron87 said:
I'd assume it'd just work like SC1 where you can just choose to play the base game or the expansion.

Yep, Blizzard has already confirmed it.

evangd007 · May 31, 2011

CarbonatedFalcon said:
As for forcefields, one idea would be to give them HP (albeit a relatively high number). Still useful in early game for preventing rushes, but decrease in power as the game progresses and armies max out. Along with that idea, another twist on that implementation would be to prevent certain types of damage (e.g. light) from doing much to the forcefields while allowing beefier units to do more damage.

Massive units are supposed to obsolete force fields. It's too bad that Ultralisks and Thors are both otherwise awful against Protoss.

Deadly said:
Wow so this totally derailed into balance talk :lol
In some new features talk, I noticed in the gameplay video the lings kinda jump from a small distance now, looked pretty much like charge but from a shorter distance. Plausible new multiplayer ability?

They purchased the Termagaunt leaping upgrade. It allows them to engage in close combat from 12 inches.

40k --> Starcraft --> 40k --> Starcraft

a176 · May 31, 2011

So what really did Blizzard announce here ... ? Nothing, aside the fact they're actually working on the game?

Come back in 5 months ...

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

evangd007 said:
Massive units are supposed to obsolete force fields. It's too bad that Ultralisks and Thors are both otherwise awful against Protoss.

A good Thor push can really mess up a Protoss. Slightly less so than it used to be since they have energy again.

But man, Thors that started with Strike Cannons ready to go were scary as hell.

mescalineeyes · May 31, 2011

DieH@rd said:
Im bummed that zerg campain will have only 20 missions. Fuck this expansion shit, i want equal campaign lenghts for all 3 races.

that's how long people can stand playing Zerg without pulling their hair out.

evangd007 · May 31, 2011

ultron87 said:
A good Thor push can really mess up a Protoss. Slightly less so than it used to be since they have energy again.

But man, Thors that started with Strike Cannons ready to go were scary as hell.

Thors are about as useful now as they were before the no energy patch: good for all-ins against Protoss before they have anything beyond Gateway tech. Don't get me wrong, something needed to be done about Strike Cannons, but I disagree with what they did. Strike Cannons is a silly stupid ability that was meant to be relegated to bronze league play, but was finding its way into standard. The guys on SotG were saying how the timing of it was the problem, how it was too quick coming so it negated the hard counter at that tech level, the Immortal. So just move it to Fusion Core tech or something. Like I said, its a silly stupid ability, and not worth the Thor having energy for.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

evangd007 said:
Thors are about as useful now as they were before the no energy patch: good for all-ins against Protoss before they have anything beyond Gateway tech. Don't get me wrong, something needed to be done about Strike Cannons, but I disagree with what they did. Strike Cannons is a silly stupid ability that was meant to be relegated to bronze league play, but was finding its way into standard. The guys on SotG were saying how the timing of it was the problem, how it was too quick coming so it negated the hard counter at that tech level, the Immortal. So just move it to Fusion Core tech or something. Like I said, its a silly stupid ability, and not worth the Thor having energy for.

Have you seen ThorZain's pre-patch play?

Tenks · May 31, 2011

mescalineeyes said:
that's how long people can stand playing Zerg without pulling their hair out.

Its comments that that which are really annoying to read

evangd007 · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Have you seen ThorZain's pre-patch play?

Back when the Thors had no energy or back before the patch that took away Thor energy?

Tenks · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Have you seen ThorZain's pre-patch play?

His Thor focused build is somewhat gimmicky and comes out at a point in time where it is easily countered by chargelot + immortal -- energy or no energy. Now his 2/2 Bio push build ... that build has been stolen.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
His Thor focused build is somewhat gimmicky and comes out at a point in time where it is easily countered by chargelot + immortal -- energy or no energy. Now his 2/2 Bio push build ... that build has been stolen.

I don't have much experience with it, but it honestly isn't easy to counter with Chargelot Immortal (talking pre-patch), on State of the Game Tyler said he's glad they patched it because he had been having a really really hard time stopping the build. The style definitely doesn't work the same way any more with Thor energy because of how long it takes to Strike Cannon and because of Feedback.

cubicle47b · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
Its comments that that which are really annoying to read

I think everyone who plays Zerg long enough has hit some kind of breaking point that the other races can't quite understand. I played Terran in beta and would get frustrated at times, particularly with mutas and reapers, but I never had my spirits crushed like I've had on the ladder versus 1 base Terran play or late game Protoss (not balance whine, I'm quite a bit better at Zerg than at Terran/Protoss - or should I say, I win more often as Z).

Losing as Terran, because of poor macro and lack of aggression, is how I relax.

mescalineeyes · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
Its comments that that which are really annoying to read

I am kidding. I love the swarm with all my heart but it can get fucking frustrating at times -- I don't even want to know what more casual sc2 players go through when they try their luck with zerg on ladder

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

cubicle47b said:
I think everyone who plays Zerg long enough has hit some kind of breaking point that the other races can't quite understand. I played Terran in beta and would get frustrated at times, particularly with mutas and reapers, but I never had my spirits crushed like I've had on the ladder versus 1 base Terran play or late game Protoss.

Losing as Terran, because of poor macro and lack of aggression, is how I relax.

Keep it out of this thread then, it's even weirder because Zerg is doing really well competitively at the moment.

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

mescalineeyes said:
I am kidding. I love the swarm with all my heart but it can get fucking frustrating at times -- I don't even want to know what more casual sc2 players go through when they try their luck with zerg on ladder

Obviously HotS will lead to a new renaissance of laddering Zergs as everyone tries them out and falls in love through the campaign.

Either that or 10 out of the 20 missions will be ZvZs and no one will every play Zerg again.

cubicle47b · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Keep it out of this thread then, it's even weirder because Zerg is doing really well competitively at the moment.

Fuck off.

Tenks · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
I don't have much experience with it, but it honestly isn't easy to counter with Chargelot Immortal (talking pre-patch), on State of the Game Tyler said he's glad they patched it because he had been having a really really hard time stopping the build. The style definitely doesn't work the same way any more with Thor energy because of how long it takes to Strike Cannon and because of Feedback.

Tyler was talking about the 2Thor+cannon push which comes out so there is roughly 1 Thor per Immortal (more than probably there will be 3 Immortals.) ThorZain's build doesn't exploit that exact timing.

Tyler is also the guy who tried to counter the build by going Colossus and Gateway. I was facepalming that entire game.

Fuck off.

He's kind of right. I think most Mid-High masters Terrans are having a feeling where we're going to have to completely scrap all of our builds very soon TvZ. It is getting extremely, extremely difficult TvZ to win unless you do massive damage in the early game because Zergs have gotten used to playing with Infestors after the buff.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

cubicle47b said:
Fuck off.

Quit being such a dick and quit whining. Zergs have been complaining for so long and now all of a sudden (without any major balance changes) they are doing the best:

-8/16 players seeded in MLG are Zerg
- 4/7 of the 6-1 players in NASL are Zerg.
-1st in latest GSL
-1st in IPL
-2nd in Tactic3D Cup
-1st in All4Kings Cup

Protoss was in a similar situation back in November when they won barely anything, then all of a sudden they became 'overpowered', just shows you how fickle balance is, and how much of a dick you look like for whining 24/7.

Tenks said:
Tyler was talking about the 2Thor+cannon push which comes out so there is roughly 1 Thor per Immortal (more than probably there will be 3 Immortals.) ThorZain's build doesn't exploit that exact timing.

Tyler is also the guy who tried to counter the build by going Colossus and Gateway. I was facepalming that entire game.

He was definitely talking about ThorZain's mass Thor build, as I remember him mentioning Feedback, and that early push comes before you'd have HT out. Tyler's response in the match definitely wasn't good (he was and still is in the middle of a slump actually), but obviously after the match he did try a variety of things and said it was really difficult. Naniwa also said he was happy that the patch addressed the build, because he was worried about it for the finals.

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
Tyler was talking about the 2Thor+cannon push which comes out so there is roughly 1 Thor per Immortal (more than probably there will be 3 Immortals.) ThorZain's build doesn't exploit that exact timing.

Tyler is also the guy who tried to counter the build by going Colossus and Gateway. I was facepalming that entire game.

Obviously Tyler played bad that game. But even going Immortals wouldn't have really worked when you lose 1 Immortal per Thor due to Strike Cannons at the start of the battle.

Tenks · May 31, 2011

I'd have to relisten to the SotG but I'm 99% sure they were talking about the "Trump build." I thought Tyler even said during it that he simply responded poorly to ThorZain's composition.

I played around with mass Thor + Marine for a while ... at least 2 weeks on the ladder ... and it is really really good if the opponent responds poorly. However if they see it and instantly get Charge with Immortals or Carriers the build falls apart. It always felt like one of those "lol I hope you don't know how to counter this" builds -- which I hate using.

Obviously Tyler played bad that game. But even going Immortals wouldn't have really worked when you lose 1 Immortal per Thor due to Strike Cannons at the start of the battle.

The idea is to have the chargelots run upfront and block all the Thors letting your Immortal go to town on them. The Thor generally just spins around doing a jig instead of actually doing anything everytime I played the games using mass Thor.

cubicle47b · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Quit being such a dick and quit whining.

I was explaining why Zerg whining is common-place. You tried to dictate what people say in this thread. I told you to fuck off. It's not that hard to understand.

At least you've shut up about how you'd be grandmasters if you'd played the game in the last 3 months and how good your brother is. That wasn't nauseating to read at all.

cubicle47b · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
He's kind of right. I think most Mid-High masters Terrans are having a feeling where we're going to have to completely scrap all of our builds very soon TvZ. It is getting extremely, extremely difficult TvZ to win unless you do massive damage in the early game because Zergs have gotten used to playing with Infestors after the buff.

I think it has been obvious for a while that as soon as the Zerg has a large amount of Mutas/Infestors the game becomes *heavily* Zerg favored. I wasn't talking about balance, though.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

cubicle47b said:
I was explaining why Zerg whining is common-place. You tried to dictate what people say in this thread. I told you to fuck off. It's not that hard to understand.

At least you've shut up about how you'd be grandmasters if you'd played the game in the last 3 months and how good your brother is. That wasn't nauseating to read at all.

Your reasoning for Zerg whining is retarded, just like how you're acting right now. Also, if I'm asked about my league, you want me to make me sound worse than I am, you must be jealous or something? If you stopped whining you could do a lot better

.

Nome · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
I imagine they wanted to start sooner but since BNET2 was so horribly buggy I'm sure most of their coding effort had to be shifted towards fixing that instead of new stuff.

Unless their programmers and campaign designers are the same people, I highly doubt the two departments conflicted, especially with a studio as large as Blizzard.

ksan · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Quit being such a dick and quit whining. Zergs have been complaining for so long and now all of a sudden (without any major balance changes) they are doing the best:

-8/16 players seeded in MLG are Zerg
- 4/7 of the 6-1 players in NASL are Zerg.
-1st in latest GSL
-1st in IPL
-2nd in Tactic3D Cup
-1st in All4Kings Cup

Protoss was in a similar situation back in November when they won barely anything, then all of a sudden they became 'overpowered', just shows you how fickle balance is, and how much of a dick you look like for whining 24/7.

Ok, this is enough. You must be a copper leaguer at statistics.

Q8D3vil · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
I'd have to relisten to the SotG but I'm 99% sure they were talking about the "Trump build." I thought Tyler even said during it that he simply responded poorly to ThorZain's composition.

I played around with mass Thor + Marine for a while ... at least 2 weeks on the ladder ... and it is really really good if the opponent responds poorly. However if they see it and instantly get Charge with Immortals or Carriers the build falls apart. It always felt like one of those "lol I hope you don't know how to counter this" builds -- which I hate using.

The idea is to have the chargelots run upfront and block all the Thors letting your Immortal go to town on them. The Thor generally just spins around doing a jig instead of actually doing anything everytime I played the games using mass Thor.

trump build is so good i had like 20% tvp winrate before i start using it, then it was 90% winrate.
it can be beaten easily, but protoss can't expand while defending it.

its not op, but extreme hard to defend if you are expanding (as difficult as taking the natural while protoss is doing 3 gate or 4 gate).

blizzard don't want thor to be a main unit thats why they gave him back the energy, i rather have it removed and given another ability like a temporary speed boost or something like that.

Zzoram · May 31, 2011

Can't Terran just use cloaked ghosts ahead of their army to EMP infestors like they do to High Templar?

Tenks · May 31, 2011

Q8D3vil said:
trump build is so good i had like 20% tvp winrate before i start using it, then it was 90% winrate.
it can be beaten easily, but protoss can't expand while defending it.

its not op, but extreme hard to defend if you are expanding (as difficult as taking the natural while protoss is doing 3 gate or 4 gate).

blizzard don't want thor to be a main unit thats why they gave him back the energy, i rather have it removed and given another ability like a temporary speed boost or something like that.

Does the Trump build still work now that the energy has been put back on the Thor? I despise builds that revolve around an exploitable timing so I only used a handful of times. It is indeed powerful.

Can't Terran just use cloaked ghosts ahead of their army to EMP infestors like they do to High Templar?

Thats the theory. I believe most Terrans are still at the drawing board about how best to deal with this new style TvZ and what is the best way to deal with it. Personally I find adding another factory to crank out more siege tanks to work better than trying to finesse a Ghost around trying to EMP. You just have to make sure not to add more reactor rax.

Infestors are also larger than HT. So you generally hit fewer of them per EMP than you do against a clump of Templar -- which often times you can hit the entire ball if the Toss isn't good about spreading.

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

Zzoram said:
Can't Terran just use cloaked ghosts ahead of their army to EMP infestors like they do to High Templar?

At that point you might as well just snipe them instead.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

ksan said:
Ok, this is enough. You must be a copper leaguer at statistics.

I hope you read my post.

Tenks said:
I'd have to relisten to the SotG but I'm 99% sure they were talking about the "Trump build." I thought Tyler even said during it that he simply responded poorly to ThorZain's composition.

I played around with mass Thor + Marine for a while ... at least 2 weeks on the ladder ... and it is really really good if the opponent responds poorly. However if they see it and instantly get Charge with Immortals or Carriers the build falls apart. It always felt like one of those "lol I hope you don't know how to counter this" builds -- which I hate using.

The idea is to have the chargelots run upfront and block all the Thors letting your Immortal go to town on them. The Thor generally just spins around doing a jig instead of actually doing anything everytime I played the games using mass Thor.

If I recall correctly, Thorzain's composition was very light on Marines (if he had any at all). SCVs surrounding the Thor and blue flame Hellions also deal well with Chargelots, and the Strike Cannons screw over the Immortals hard (MC had a big number of Immortals and still lost convincingly). The build is kind of dead now any ways, I was looking forward to seeing how pro Protosses dealt with it

.

RavenFox · May 31, 2011

mescalineeyes said:
that's how long people can stand playing Zerg without pulling their hair out.

Wtf ?

edit: ahh saw your next post.

Q8D3vil · May 31, 2011

Zzoram said:
Can't Terran just use cloaked ghosts ahead of their army to EMP infestors like they do to High Templar?

depend, if the zerg let u macro and get same number of bases then why the fuck not.

The Lamonster · May 31, 2011

hahaha you guys are all worked up

Zzoram · May 31, 2011

ultron87 said:
At that point you might as well just snipe them instead.

EMP hits more than one at a time, and is faster. Snipe takes what, 2 shots per infestor? That's too many clicks when ~2-3 EMPs can disable 8 infestors faster. If you're about to engage the army, EMP effectively eliminates the infestors anyways. Without energy they may as well be dead.

Tenks · May 31, 2011

Zzoram said:
EMP hits more than one at a time, and is faster. Snipe takes what, 2 shots per infestor? That's too many clicks when ~2-3 EMPs can disable 8 infestors faster. If you're about to engage the army, EMP effectively eliminates the infestors anyways. Without energy they may as well be dead.

3 :/ Since the Infestor regens 1 HP inbetween the sniper rounds 2 snipes leaves the prick chilling with 1 HP. Annoying

The only issue is Ghost + Cloak costs a ton of gas. At that point if the Zerg gets just 2 fungals off on your marine ball he will be able to clean up the rest of your army with the ling/bling behind the scenes. It is a fragile, but viable, option. That is why I prefer using additional tanks. Feels safer.

styl3s · May 31, 2011

Hopefully i will have a better gaming laptop or pc before this comes out, my current laptop runs it fine at high settings but seems to run around 70-80 degrees or whatever after 1-2 games, seems a bit hot but i don't know anything about that kind of stuff, someone said long as it isn't in the 90s it's fine but... dunno

ultron87 · May 31, 2011

Zzoram said:
EMP hits more than one at a time, and is faster. Snipe takes what, 2 shots per infestor? That's too many clicks when ~2-3 EMPs can disable 8 infestors faster. If you're about to engage the army, EMP effectively eliminates the infestors anyways. Without energy they may as well be dead.

True. I guess it really just depends on how many Ghosts you have vs how many Infestors and whether you have some time to properly aim the snipes or not.

darkpaladinmfc · May 31, 2011

Zzoram said:
EMP hits more than one at a time, and is faster. Snipe takes what, 2 shots per infestor? That's too many clicks when ~2-3 EMPs can disable 8 infestors faster. If you're about to engage the army, EMP effectively eliminates the infestors anyways. Without energy they may as well be dead.

Byun vs Zenio from a few GSLs ago demonstrates this, it hasn't been too common since. I think it's also possible for you to fungal the Ghosts if you see the shimmer (sometimes you see people Storm cloaked Ghosts too -- which is worse because the Ghosts can move out of it so it takes multiple Storms).

evangd007 · May 31, 2011

ultron87 said:
At that point you might as well just snipe them instead.

Naw, snipe theoretically 2 shots Infestors but they always regenerate one hit point in the intervening time, in which case you're using 75 energy to kill one infestor and might as well use the aoe ability that costs 75 energy. No energy infestors are dead weight anyhow.

The problem with using cloaked ghosts in any capacity is that infestors can fungal the wavy outlines and decloak the ghosts.

cubicle47b · May 31, 2011

darkpaladinmfc said:
Your reasoning for Zerg whining is retarded, just like how you're acting right now. Also, if I'm asked about my league, you want me to make me sound worse than I am, you must be jealous or something? If you stopped whining you could do a lot better .

Since I've mostly played Zerg since beta with a few weekends off-racing go ahead and tell me about your low moments as Protoss. What kind of losing streak did you have, what kind of games were they, what mistake(s) lead to your loss, etc? I don't think I've ever raged in game and I own my losses (always feel it was my fault) but I've had moments where I questioned whether I should play the game again (when I was playing Zerg) that I've never had as other races so I'd like to hear that from a Protoss.

When asked about your league you could be honest and say what league you were in 3 months ago when you were playing and not bring up your potential league/brother in every post for the next 2 pages while simultaneously telling people they weren't allowed to comment on anything. It made you a douche-bag from the beginning.

Venfayth · May 31, 2011

Tenks said:
The only issue is Ghost + Cloak costs a ton of gas. At that point if the Zerg gets just 2 fungals off on your marine ball he will be able to clean up the rest of your army with the ling/bling behind the scenes. It is a fragile, but viable, option. That is why I prefer using additional tanks. Feels safer.

Infestor+ling vs tank+marine can still be pretty damn deadly especially if NP is researched. I think in either situation the outcome of the battle is going to come down to control more than anything else.

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