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SmiteOfHand · Dec 14, 2015

Mister_Bubbles said:
I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but why would the Eve and Hannah be doing their knock code to each other during interviews unless they were both 'present' at the same time (i.e. split personality)? That is what makes me lean towards that explanation, although the bruise and tattoo are definitely also hard to reason if that is the case.

Nervous twitch. If I recall correctly it happens each time they are in a tough spot in the questioning.

Also no matter which theory you subscribe to both sides have to accept that it is a work of fiction and some elements could exist purely to throw the player off and is not necessarily indicative of anything deeper. Not saying these things aren't worth discussing just always worth keeping in mind.

chaobreaker · Dec 28, 2015

I beat Her Story over the weekend and am sort of disappointed that there wasn't enough exploration of the tap codes both girls demonstrated. I thought I had a Sherlock Holmes moment for a second when I cracked the 2 codes but then hours later found out nothing really came from learning it. Like some ARG was going to spawn from some future codes and I have to research stuff online to figure out the murderer. Oh well.

Also, are we really expected to believe that the mushroom expert parents both died from eating poisonous mushrooms? Come on.

ArjanN · Dec 28, 2015

chaobreaker said:
I beat Her Story over the weekend and am sort of disappointed that there wasn't enough exploration of the tap codes both girls demonstrated. I thought I had a Sherlock Holmes moment for a second when I cracked the 2 codes but then hours later found out nothing really came from learning it. Like some ARG was going to spawn from some future codes and I have to research stuff online to figure out the murderer. Oh well.

Also, are we really expected to believe that the mushroom expert parents both died from eating poisonous mushrooms? Come on.

I thought it was obvious they were implying she poisoned them.

Wensih · Dec 28, 2015

I'm glad this thread has shot to the top of the forum again because I wanted to highlight this odd sound tidbit in the confession scene. You can hear someone, possibly a receptionist, calling for "Hannah" outside the interrogation room...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlBt9zp8wY#t=25m13s

SmiteOfHand · Dec 28, 2015

ArjanN said:
I thought it was obvious they were implying she poisoned them.

Which 'she'?

I think elements like this, the midwife stair incident, the ocean incident, and the song, were to lay the ground work of is she capable of murder, or has she possibly done it in the past? And if she has not the thought has clearly crossed her mind.

Minishdriveby said:
I'm glad this thread has shot to the top of the forum again because I wanted to highlight this odd sound tidbit in the confession scene. You can hear someone, possibly a receptionist, calling for "Hannah" outside the interrogation room...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlBt9zp8wY#t=25m13s

Looped this a whole bunch with headphones, there is also a beep a moment before. Sounds more like the sound of a hinge on a door/cupboard or a squeaky chair to me, but I admit the sound intonation has an uncanny 'hannah' quality to it.

Mr_Zombie · Dec 28, 2015

Anyone noticed how in the 7th interview, when Eve describes what happened when she saw Simon's body and Hannah covered in blood, that she is nervously playing with her wedding ring... that she doesn't wear that day? Eve wasn't married, never had been, she shouldn't be used to wearing a wedding ring and theoretically shouldn't develop the habit of playing with it. And yet she was doing that, even though there was no ring on her finger.

https://youtu.be/PmlBt9zp8wY?t=36m35s

#TeamSplitPersonality

I'm still not convinced for the whole twin theory. Sure, there are few hard, physical, evidences (bruise and the tattoo being the strongest ones), but if we assume that this is true, there are so many plot holes in the story.

- How could the midwife took away Eve without anyone noticing it? Sure, she told the parents that Eve was stillborn, but weren't parents curious what happened to the body, didn't they want to bury their dead daughter?

- How could 8 years old girls come out with that kind of plot and succeed? Teenagers - maybe, although that still sounds more like a fairy tale, but not 8-year-old girls. And willingly pulling own teeth and do matching damages? Nope, I don't believe that...

- ...especially since even as adult women they can't do this right. Hannah had a bruise, Eve didn't (even though it had been a week or so since Eve/Simon - whoever gave her the bruise - hit her) and when asked she even mistook on which side the bruise was supposed to be. Hannah also forgot about the tattoo, even though she decided to wear short sleeves during one of the interviews. If you make such huge and basic mistakes in your adulthood, when you're trying to convince the police that there's only Hannah, how could you ever succeed in deceiving your parents and everyone around you when you're a kid?

- Apparently Eve moved out from the attic six months after Hannah and Simon moved in to their parents house (because Hannah forbidden Eve to "pretend to be her" around Simon). Since then she had supposedly lived on her own. How could someone who legally doesn't exist, and who spent half or more of her life living in the attic, live on her own for almost 10 years without anyone noticing anything weird? Eve also said that when Hannah married Simon she started wearing a blonde wig when she was going out "in case anyone recognized me" - wouldn't simply dying her hair be easier and more convenient? At that point she supposedly stopped caring about the doppelganger look (she got a tattoo on her arm after all).

- Simon met Eve at the pub. Simon started cheating his wife with her for no real reason (nothing in Hannah's or Eve's testimony indicated that they had a marriage crisis or something) and for no real reason decided to bring her home and fuck her on his and his wife's bed. Why would any sane man - especially so nice, who always tries to "smooth things over", as Hannah described him - do such a cruel and reckless thing?

- The evening he had an argument with his wife, Simon went to pub and then, an hour or two later, returned home. However, instead of Hannah he found Eve there. Earlier in the interview Hannah stated that "the door locks if it swings to" so we have two possibilities: Hannah let Eve in (after learning that she's pregnant with Simon? c'mon!) and then left, or Eve let herself in (how?). Anyway, would a sane person not be surprised by her presence there and decided that it's a good time to give his lover - who he just learned is his wife's secret twin sister - a present?

- Eve said that after she and Hannah had a fight Hannah "put on [Eve's] wig and some of [Eve's] clothes". Where did Hannah get Eve's clothes? The sister hadn't been living with them for years now and she sure didn't dropped them like she dropped the wig during the fight.

SmiteOfHand · Dec 28, 2015

Mr_Zombie said:
I'm still not convinced for the whole twin theory. Sure, there are few hard, physical, evidences (bruise and the tattoo being the strongest ones), but if we assume that this is true, there are so many plot holes in the story.

The murder weapon, fingerprints, pregnancy, and Glasgow trip are stronger physical evidence for me to the point that now the bruise and tattoo seem to overstate it in an obvious and heavy handed way.

Read over this yet? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=170638235#post170638235

Mr_Zombie · Dec 28, 2015

Yeah, I read that too.

I could give you the fingerprints - I found that odd too.

As for the rest, remember that Hannah/Eva are unreliable narrators, so what they said isn't exactly true.

Glasgow trip - she could either made that up (she didn't have her documents with her, so no one could really testify that Hannah/Eva Smith was there) or she could leave after she killed Simon (which would explain why the taxi driver decided to bring Eva to the hospital - she would have the bruise and some blood on her after the murder). Remember that we don't know the exact time she left the house or when exactly Simon was killed, only that Eva was in Glasgow at the time Simon's watch stopped at - and Eva tampered with the watch, so that's an unreliable evidence (Why would the watch even indicate anything? Was it powered by Simon's heart or something?). Remember that, according to Eva, when she returned home Hannah was sitting beside dead Simon, still wearing the wig, still in shock. Between 9pm on Friday (Simon's death), and 3pm on Saturday (Eva returns home) nothing happened in Portsmouth - back there, the time had stopped.

Pregnancy - people with MPD can have alternative personas who are of different gender, ethnicity or age. Physical look and what really happens with the body doesn't matter - it's all in the mind. So I really don't find it weird that Eva ignored all the evidences that she's really pregnant. I find that (and that her having sex while pregnant and getting STD was the real cause of the miscarriage) more believable than that suddenly her periods stopped (!) and her body refused to be impregnated just because her twin sister was pregnant. Twins don't work like that. That also applies to what Eva said: "So much of our bodies were synchronised anyway. We started our period on the same day. All our childhood diseases. Stomach bugs. Nits."

Murder weapon - Eva could either made up that the mirror Simon gave her was the murder weapon (even if we assume Eva tells truth, why would Simon make a second, identical mirror for both his wife and his lover?), or the original mirror did have the silver leaf. Hannah got rid of the broken glass, but left the frame and had it repaired (remember, she had over a week between murdering Simon and "finding" his body). Notice how sentimental Hannah is when she talks and touches the mirror. And anyway, what kind of husband would give a mirror that is "the perfect mirror for someone who doesn’t like to look at their own reflection" for his wife's birthday?

chaobreaker · Dec 29, 2015

Could it be possible that Hannah made up Eve so she could get away with murder?

Mr_Zombie · Dec 29, 2015

That's also a possibility given how naively, on the last interview, Eve states that "My sister is gone. And she’s never coming back." and then boldly asks "Can you arrest someone who doesn’t exist?". Up until then she was refusing a lawyer, but after the police answered her question (apparently you can arrest someone who "doesn't exist"), she suddenly lost her steam and asked for a lawyer ("Please.").

And since there's no proof that Eve (no matter if you're #teamTwins or #teamMPD) ever existed - there are no documents, all leads (like Florence's dairy) were destroyed, and everyone who knew about her, other than Hannah, are dead - it's not really possible to even prove it. So if Hannah truly believed that police can't do anything to a non-existent citizen, she could made up Eve.

SmiteOfHand · Dec 29, 2015

Mr_Zombie said:
Murder weapon - Eva could either made up that the mirror Simon gave her was the murder weapon

The detective has one of the mirrors in their possession and we see it in an evidence bag. It is heavily implied that the silver from the mirror was in the wound. I don't believe there is a good reason to doubt the mirror is the murder weapon.

Hannah denies silverleaf and states he silvers them properly. (30/06/94, D418)

Hannah responds to a detective query about 'being on his clothes.' States that makes sense as he made it by hand, brushing the silver onto the glass. (30/06/94, D419)

Hannah puts the mirror down, touches her throat and asks 'In his throat? How?' (30/06/94, D420)

Consider how much the DID theory relies on implication. "When this happens what it really means is this. When she says this what she really means is this." That is fine and subtext is important, but the reason all the physical evidence stacks up in a meaningful way is the closing scene. They do not have the actual murder weapon. Hannah's clothes are gone. Eve has a rock solid alibi. Even the detective appears to be convinced of a twin, all of their questions lean twin. It all hinges on this crazy notion that an undocumented twin exists, so they get rid of the most important piece of physical evidence... Hannah. This is why Hannah disappears when it becomes clear the detective is on to the truth.

In the closing clips of the final interrogation she confesses it all because she is completely convinced they have no physical evidence. Eve did not murder Simon, Hannah did, she has nothing to fear.

Mr_Zombie · Dec 29, 2015

SmiteOfHand said:
Consider how much the DID theory relies on implication. "When this happens what it really means is this. When she says this what she really means is this."

I'm fully aware of that. However, on the other hand, the only evidence we do have is Hannah's and Eve's words - an unreliable narrator who may or may not tell the truth. As I said before, there are no clear evidences that Eve - even if she's real - ever existed. The only person that can confirm that is Hannah herself, and by the time Eve's existence is finally reveled (whether she's a true person or Hannah's imaginary friend), Hannah is gone (either literally, or metaphorically)

Eve has a rock solid alibi.

No, if anything Hannah has a rock solid alibi, because even if Eve really checked out at the Glasgow's hospital, she probably introduced herself as Hannah Smith. And it's not even "rock solid" since she didn't have any documents with her so no one can confirm that a woman who said she's "Hannah Smith" really was "Hannah Smith".

It all hinges on this crazy notion that an undocumented twin exists, so they get rid of the most important piece of physical evidence... Hannah. This is why Hannah disappears when it becomes clear the detective is on to the truth.

In the closing clips of the final interrogation she confesses it all because she is completely convinced they have no physical evidence. Eve did not murder Simon, Hannah did, she has nothing to fear.

But even if we consider the DID theory, Hannah's mental disappearance (Eve takes control of Hannah's body and fully pushes Hannah's persona away) also means the only true evidence is lost.

Anyway, the police had enough evidences to not only arrest Eve, but to also sentence her to over 20 years' imprisonment (if we are to believe that Eve is still in prison at the time the game takes place). Moreover, based on the evidences the police had they ended up arresting Eve - the woman who confessed she just helped cover the murder, and not Hannah - the woman who really committed the murder. And this is the police that, as you said, was convinced of the twin theory. So we can assume that the police had more evidences than what we can conclude from Hannah's and Eve's words and expressions during the interview .

Also, notice what SB wrote Sarah on the messenger: "Now you understand why your mother did what she did?" If we are supposed to believe Eve's story, Eve is Sarah's mother and her only wrongdoing in all this was helping Hannah getting rid of the body and falsifying testimony.

Haunted · Dec 29, 2015

If there's one thing this thread really drives home, it's that Sam Barlow is a fucking terrific designer and has left a strong, long-lasting impression on me with his last two games, so I'm interested in whatever thing he does next.

SmiteOfHand · Dec 30, 2015

Mr_Zombie said:
Also, notice what SB wrote Sarah on the messenger: "Now you understand why your mother did what she did?" If we are supposed to believe Eve's story, Eve is Sarah's mother and her only wrongdoing in all this was helping Hannah getting rid of the body and falsifying testimony.

Which, to be fair, is very much illegal and would likely land you in prison. Not sure for how long in GB. I had a sentence in my write up, that I removed, about how Eve's biggest screw up was that being an accessory to a murder is illegal and probably what she went down for, but the game leaves that part so vague it was too far down the speculation hole.

That line from SB is really the game encapsulated in a question, right? It is essentially Sam Barlow [SB] asking the audience [Sarah] which side they believe. It is worded in a way that is so incredibly open ended that even the motivation of 'what she did' is up for discussion, let alone what the actual deed was. I still do believe both theories are valid and Barlow put a lot of effort into maintaining that ambiguity. Personally I find the twin theory the most compelling and satisfying, but do not fault anyone for believing the DID theory.

AwShucks · Dec 30, 2015

I'm pretty firmly in the split personality camp.

Mr_Zombie · Dec 30, 2015

SmiteOfHand said:
Which, to be fair, is very much illegal and would likely land you in prison. Not sure for how long in GB. I had a sentence in my write up, that I removed, about how Eve's biggest screw up was that being an accessory to a murder is illegal and probably what she went down for, but the game leaves that part so vague it was too far down the speculation hole.

I don't think - based on Eva's story - she can be sentenced for an accessory to a murder. If anything, from what she said, her crime was rather concealing evidences and/or falsifying evidences. Those of course are still crimes that will make you end up in prison, but I believe the sentence would be much less severe than murder/accessory to a murder.

That line from SB is really the game encapsulated in a question, right? It is essentially Sam Barlow [SB] asking the audience [Sarah] which side they believe. It is worded in a way that is so incredibly open ended that even the motivation of 'what she did' is up for discussion, let alone what the actual deed was. I still do believe both theories are valid and Barlow put a lot of effort into maintaining that ambiguity. Personally I find the twin theory the most compelling and satisfying, but do not fault anyone for believing the DID theory.

I agree with you. The game provides enough evidences and contradictions, that however you look at it, both theories can be believable and defendable. To be honest, at first I believed in the twin theory until I started reading various analysis (including this thread) and the more I was thinking about it, the more sense it made to me; although there are still some problems with it that are either hard or impossible to explain.

So yeah, Sam Barlow created a really great and though provoking game.

Makonero · Dec 30, 2015

I've heard from several sources that the ending and twist are "pat" or "obvious" and that bothers me so much because the ambiguity inherent in the game refutes that! The beauty of the game is that your journey through the videos paints your own personal interpretation of what is really going on, and that's genius.

daydream · Dec 31, 2015

the game is extremely important so i'll forgive some design flaws. it totally nailed the most important point, though, which is to marry the unreliable narrator with, well, every other aspect of the game. more important than the fact whether a split personality or a pair of twins are on display is the fact that it is left ambiguous and to deny that ambiguity would be to rob the game of its main accomplishment

whether cutting up the narrative into pieces and leaving the order up to the player is the most elegant design solution is a secondary concern measured against the feat of generally pulling off the narrative conceit and doing it with such fervour and strong sense of direction

can't give barlow enough credit here

kinggroin · Jan 1, 2016

....yeah I'm going with the Primal Fear theory.

If you guys have seen that movie then you know my theory. If not, watch that movie asap.

Piers · Jan 1, 2016

AwShucks said:
I'm pretty firmly in the split personality camp.

And I'm likewise in twins.

heringer · Jan 2, 2016

Bruise, tattoo and police detector are just too strong evidence for twins.

Besides, it's the only way their plan makes sense in my mind. One killed, the other had the alibi so they got away with murder because Eve didn't really exist.

Lady Siara · Jan 2, 2016

Makonero said:
I've heard from several sources that the ending and twist are "pat" or "obvious" and that bothers me so much because the ambiguity inherent in the game refutes that! The beauty of the game is that your journey through the videos paints your own personal interpretation of what is really going on, and that's genius.

Yup, I have to laugh whenever I read that someone "figured out the twist" relatively early. They're jumping to conclusions way too fast and like you said, the beauty of the game is its inherent uncertainty. Players that say this must not have seen the closing scene as that is the true twist, not to immediately assume that it's multiple personalities/twins.

I've read that he has an ending in his mind but refuses to share it. I think I prefer it that way.

Mr_Zombie · Jan 2, 2016

The true twist in the game is that you're playing as Sarah - Eve's daughter. And you won't be able to get that quickly.

I also got the scene when Eve talks about how she met Sam in the bar very quickly into the game - it was one of my earliest clips (I think I was looking for keyword "drink" thinking that Simon might got drinking problems or something); for a long time - till I finally got the clip where Hannah introduces herself - I even thought "Eve" is Hannah's name. However, maybe that was me, but learning what happened to Hannah's and Eve's lives up to that point - who was Florence and what she did, what's going on with Hannah's "friend", what happened to Hannah's parents etc. - was much more interesting to me than the whole "who killed Simon" thing.

spekkeh · Jan 2, 2016

I got the twist that she had mpd some ten minutes in, so that dampened the game a bit for me, as it meant I spent the next one and a half hours just digging for details. Still, a really great little game.

(edit: I see people are serious about the twin theory. To me it really doesn't make sense that she would say her parents died but then have her twin live across the street that she first met in the mirror whose parents are still alive and she later kills while living in the attic? It would be a pretty big leap of faith to take that at face value... especially considering they're the same person is a good twist to discover in a crime interrogation)

Something I haven't seen discussed yet (but I skipped a few pages so apologies if it was), was that as Hannah became pregnant, so Eve 'needed' to become pregnant to maintain the mirror image. That means she heavily cheated on Simon during this period even though Simon may not even have known she was pregnant. Did Simon know when he gave her the mirror? I think it was guilt/hate over this as Hannah/Eve saw her own reflection in the mirror that made her kill him.

Falchion · Jan 3, 2016

heringer said:
Bruise, tattoo and police detector are just too strong evidence for twins.

Besides, it's the only way their plan makes sense in my mind. One killed, the other had the alibi so they got away with murder because Eve didn't really exist.

This is what I came out of the game thinking. Played it all in one session this afternoon and it was fantastic.

MrFrankFontaine · Jan 3, 2016

Played through this last night. After watching most of the videos and reading this thread, my thoughts remain unchanged.

This is basically "The Usual Suspects" (my favorite movie by the way). I put spoilers around this in case anyone hasn't already seen the movie.

The story is just that, a story. We as the viewers (Sarah) don't and will never know what truly happened. All we know is what Eve/Hannah tells us. She says as much in the final interview. We know Simon was murdered, but we never know by whom as the game doesn't provide that info (just what Eve/Hannah tells us). Do we know if there were twins or DID or a very good liar. Nope. The point of the story is to not give you any of this.

In comparison to "The Usual Suspects"

It's just like we don't what really went down in "The Usual Suspects". All we know is that Verbal (or what ever his real name was) told us one hell of a story. Is he Keyser Soze. Maybe. He definitely wasn't the cripple he was pretending to be. Did he pretend to be a cripple when he was with the crew? Who knows. All we know is that a very elaborate story was given and that a dead witness believes that Verbal was Keyser Soze. Nothing is proven outright. I like to believe that he was the criminal mastermind Keyser Soze, but we truly don't and will never know.I also choose to believe that Hannah was a mastermind and basically told an incredible story.

Anyways, I found it to be very interesting. Unless the director of the game decides to drop their interpretation, we'll never truly know what went down.

Camp Freddie · Jan 7, 2016

I finished this last night and have been looking up explanations and theories.

My opinion is that Sam Barlow knows what he's doing and wrote the story to specifically cause people to go something like this:

Wow, it's twins! So how does that work?

OK, so they're taking it in turns to be (or pretend to be) Hannah, until the end where she reveals that she's Eve and Hannah has gone. A genius detective is me!

Wait a minute, isn't that all a bit cliche, with the naughty and nice twins. And how the hell do kids spend their entire life hiding in an attic without their parents noticing?

Wait a minute, this sounds more like multiple personality disorder.

Wow, multiple personality disorder totally fits. Sherlock Holmes has nothing on me!

Wait, what about the bruise? And why would there be 2 mirrors? Does Simon not realise that Eve is his wife? Am I overreaching? Maybe it really is twins?

But what about the knock code, or the utter ridiculousness of stuff like the Police returning only one twin after the Dylan concert? It's gotta be MPD!

Wait, this is just a game by a clever dev. It can't be solved like a real world mystery. We need to go deeper. He knows that making one perfect explanation would remove all the mystery. All subsequent discussions would be reduced to people directing the the noobs to a hyperlinked proof of the correct version.

Seems like the developer has dropped some heavy hints that the ambiguity is intentional and there is no one true story. I have solved the metagame mystery too! I am thrice times a genius!

What's Sam Barlow working on next? Just take my money man!

Makonero · Jan 7, 2016

Camp Freddie said:
I finished this last night and have been looking up explanations and theories.

My opinion is that Sam Barlow knows what he's doing and wrote the story to specifically cause people to go something like this:

Wow, it's twins! So how does that work?

OK, so they're taking it in turns to be (or pretend to be) Hannah, until the end where she reveals that she's Eve and Hannah has gone. A genius detective is me!

Wait a minute, isn't that all a bit cliche, with the naughty and nice twins. And how the hell do kids spend their entire life hiding in an attic without their parents noticing?

Wait a minute, this sounds more like multiple personality disorder.

Wow, multiple personality disorder totally fits. Sherlock Holmes has nothing on me!

Wait, what about the bruise? And why would there be 2 mirrors? Does Simon not realise that Eve is his wife? Am I overreaching? Maybe it really is twins?

But what about the knock code, or the utter ridiculousness of stuff like the Police returning only one twin after the Dylan concert? It's gotta be MPD!

Wait, this is just a game by a clever dev. It can't be solved like a real world mystery. We need to go deeper. He knows that making one perfect explanation would remove all the mystery. All subsequent discussions would be reduced to people directing the the noobs to a hyperlinked proof of the correct version.

Seems like the developer has dropped some heavy hints that the ambiguity is intentional and there is no one true story. I have solved the metagame mystery too! I am thrice times a genius!

What's Sam Barlow working on next? Just take my money man!

You'd be surprised how many people get stuck on the first or second "conclusion."

And yes, Sam Barlow, I will throw money at you, just give me another game!

charlequin · Jan 8, 2016

Camp Freddie said:
Seems like the developer has dropped some heavy hints that the ambiguity is intentional and there is no one true story.

On the contrary, he's said that he has a specific series of events that he wrote the game around, which I suppose would be the "true" story. The presentation of the narrative is intended to let it be ambiguous which isn't the same as the narrative itself being ambiguous, I guess.

Femmeworth · Jan 11, 2016

Just finished it. Multiple personalities didn't cross my mind once and now I'm a bit soured on the game if that was the intent. :\

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