Crimsonclaw111
Member
I honestly thought they were Nazis using an Iron Cross... Don't seem to be WWI Germans at all. THEY'RE EVIL!!
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"What writers should learn from Wonder Woman"
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
I honestly thought they were Nazis using an Iron Cross... Don't seem to be WWI Germans at all. THEY'RE EVIL!!
I want to say that GotG2 was accused of this but there are plenty of moments in both films when the emotion is allowed to be "cheesy" and sincere (and the first film got criticized for it) and many times that there was humor to break the tension from a moment, it was often in character like with someone like Rocket who just can't help but hide behind sarcasm, and even then we see times where he's weeping over Groots death or whatnot.
While I feel it's a valid criticism of writing that wishes to inject humor to undercut emotional scenes to keep the tone lighter, I feel people throw the criticism at almost anything that attempts humor without regards to the context in the film.
There are people that tell jokes at funerals, for instance and it doesn't automatically make it inappropriate. In fact, sometimes it can be very appropriate.
While I feel it's a valid criticism of writing that wishes to inject humor to undercut emotional scenes to keep the tone lighter, I feel people throw the criticism at almost anything that attempts humor without regards to the context in the film.
There are people that tell jokes at funerals, for instance and it doesn't automatically make it inappropriate. In fact, sometimes it can be very appropriate.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Ares was basically the objective from the start and you're correct that there is also a personal / emotional thing going on at the same time as the gratuitous explosions and sparks.
Compare it to say BvS where Doomsday is basically deployed 10 minutes before the fight and has no connection to anything else in the series. Man of Steel's final fight was probably too long and people hate how destructive it was, but it also had a reason to be there in the story, it wasn't just a complete "what the heck?" moment like Doomsday.
Cap doesn't joke during the airport fight though
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Are you really sure?
Like 100% sure?
Like... not even with Spider-Man... not even a little?
MugiwaraCole
Member
What was bad about those jokes?
Y'all gotta let y'all's vendetta against any and all humor go. You sound like edgy teenagers.
Who followed you? Our entire exchange has taken place here in this thread. Lmfao.
"Where you from, kid?"
"Queens "
"*smirks* Brooklyn"
Where is the joke? I don't think that word means what you guys think it means.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I think his talk with Spider-Man was the only time he joked a little.
There was like a 3 second pause between every word in their lines. It was incredibly awkward.
"Are you...average...for a male?"
"I...uhhhh....would say...I'm above average..."
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It's called tone and it is indeed a lighter moment / entering joke territory whether or not you want to be snarky about it.
And hilarious.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Diana wasn't talking about sex. Steve thought she was hinting at sex.
Exactly. It was great. I worry about some of you.
I literally burst out laughing in the threatre. One of the very cheesiest lines and delivery I've seen in a while. That whole big bad fight was just awful.
Otherwise it was a pretty good movie imo with a surprisingly strong supporting cast.
broncobuster
Banned
I don't think it did. It portrayed the German high command more empathetic than the British. And it's a reoccurring pillar to Diana's arc that life is not black and white, good and evil.
Monocle
Member
This is the kind of point that sounds great on a forum but deflates entirely when you actually watch the movies being discussed and look for sincere moments.
If anything, Marvel movies are built on sincerity and the humor is just another way to get at some kind of emotional truth, or imply it by omission. This is most prominent in the Guardians films, but you could pick a Marvel movie at random and see this device at work.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You're supposed to linger for these types of jokes. Silence is half the battle here.
MCU humor works with Tony Stark because that's who he is, but they gave that trait to everyone. GotG is a really good example of this because the humor undercuts a lot of emotional scenes. None of the characters are described to use humor as a defense mechanism so it's hard to say the jokes are written in a way to get to a character's emotions. This doesn't mean there isn't emotion of sincerity but it never feels earned because the scenes aren't done well but they're still done and them being done is a problem. The problem? You can use done as an excuse to say it was well done which allows for some super simple logic and reasoning to spearhead some really dumb ideas like Loki taking over Earth or Ronan in general. Like, a lot of movies do this but they still got to step up their game: rhyme with 2 syllables instead of 1, ya know?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It wasn't really a joke. It was just them talking. Getting to know each other.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Haven't actually watched the movie but a podcast I listened to just did an episode about it and yeah, it sounds like it has some really fucked up subtext around that.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Like, I'm afraid everything may not be ok at home for some of these folks. Jokes are good, guys. Humor is fine.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
The goal was to make people laugh. The scene was a fish out of water experience for both of them because they both underestimated each other's knowledge.
I hope you aren't serious lol
I feel like a few have touched it already, but going into it.
What writers should take away from WW is heroism. WW is basically taking from Spiderman and Superman, but it is something forgotten in many of the modern comic book movies. This isn't just as simple as a quip ruining or moment. It's the entire process of the film, followed by the lead up to the act or acts.
No Man's Land for WW was that. She leaves the Island with Steve to save people, the entire time in London is her wanting to save people, but being told she can't now. Then she is then put into the position where she can either go along with Steve's plan to end the war or do what she came here for. And the reveal is pitch perfect. Her removing the non-uniform articles of clothing, slowly stepping out fearless into what no one else there can handle, and charging forward, This isn't the end, because of that act, the rest follow forward. She takes on the entire German line and acts as the shield for the rest, inspiring people who couldn't not move, to suddenly move forward.
This is that heroism that is missing in many current comic films. The sort that is cheesy, but inspiring. The setpiece is designed around her will to help people being the driving force. Her getting pinned down by the entire line, but the rest following to give her just enough support to break through.
Compare it to Avengers for example. Yes, they are saving people, but it's second to Loki. Or the action pieces of Hawkeye shooting, Hulk smashing, Ironman flying, etc. It's never once been the center of a set piece since, what Capt 1 which turned out to be the highlight of the film for many. A pure build up and moment to it. It's why I still think Capt 1 has the most emotional punch still out of all the Marvel films. GOTG2 comes damn close, but I will also note GOTG2 is unique in a sense that it is clearly a comedy masquerading as a Superhero flick ala Deadpool. Rather than trying to being like Capt or WW.
Think about the most memorable scene from Superman(OG) or Spiderman, they're similar. The train sequence is it for Spiderman 2 which climaxes with him sacrificing his body to stop the train. Followed by the people protecting both his identity and him. It didn't matter that Doc Oct cracked a joke and ended it. What matter was the lead up to it. He's back, the one that inspires the city is back.
WW fucking nailed this aspect. It's has that Hope to it. You're not cheering for her kicking ass at the moment in the NML scene, you cheering for her, because she is showing that the impenetrable wall in front can be broken. Her will do what is right won't be hampered anymore.
This is also what is so painful about MoS. Imagine if the finale fight was changed just a bit. Rather than Super and Zod just duking it out. It had bits where Supers would take some shots from people, save some people from Zod's wraith along the way. Rather than throwing a goddamn truck, he takes the hit and shields people from the blast. Basically, Superman acting like Superman. Exactly what the trailer said, "They will stumble, they will fall, but they will one day come with you into the light". People are then looking towards him to stop the menance, believing that their hero will save them. This is why people are so frustrated with Synder's portrayal, since every thing Superman has done has been empty for the character that is the living embodiment of being a Hero. He sacrifices himself because he knows he can for others. Not just Lois, but anyone.
What writers should take away from WW is heroism. WW is basically taking from Spiderman and Superman, but it is something forgotten in many of the modern comic book movies. This isn't just as simple as a quip ruining or moment. It's the entire process of the film, followed by the lead up to the act or acts.
No Man's Land for WW was that. She leaves the Island with Steve to save people, the entire time in London is her wanting to save people, but being told she can't now. Then she is then put into the position where she can either go along with Steve's plan to end the war or do what she came here for. And the reveal is pitch perfect. Her removing the non-uniform articles of clothing, slowly stepping out fearless into what no one else there can handle, and charging forward, This isn't the end, because of that act, the rest follow forward. She takes on the entire German line and acts as the shield for the rest, inspiring people who couldn't not move, to suddenly move forward.
This is that heroism that is missing in many current comic films. The sort that is cheesy, but inspiring. The setpiece is designed around her will to help people being the driving force. Her getting pinned down by the entire line, but the rest following to give her just enough support to break through.
Compare it to Avengers for example. Yes, they are saving people, but it's second to Loki. Or the action pieces of Hawkeye shooting, Hulk smashing, Ironman flying, etc. It's never once been the center of a set piece since, what Capt 1 which turned out to be the highlight of the film for many. A pure build up and moment to it. It's why I still think Capt 1 has the most emotional punch still out of all the Marvel films. GOTG2 comes damn close, but I will also note GOTG2 is unique in a sense that it is clearly a comedy masquerading as a Superhero flick ala Deadpool. Rather than trying to being like Capt or WW.
Think about the most memorable scene from Superman(OG) or Spiderman, they're similar. The train sequence is it for Spiderman 2 which climaxes with him sacrificing his body to stop the train. Followed by the people protecting both his identity and him. It didn't matter that Doc Oct cracked a joke and ended it. What matter was the lead up to it. He's back, the one that inspires the city is back.
WW fucking nailed this aspect. It's has that Hope to it. You're not cheering for her kicking ass at the moment in the NML scene, you cheering for her, because she is showing that the impenetrable wall in front can be broken. Her will do what is right won't be hampered anymore.
This is also what is so painful about MoS. Imagine if the finale fight was changed just a bit. Rather than Super and Zod just duking it out. It had bits where Supers would take some shots from people, save some people from Zod's wraith along the way. Rather than throwing a goddamn truck, he takes the hit and shields people from the blast. Basically, Superman acting like Superman. Exactly what the trailer said, "They will stumble, they will fall, but they will one day come with you into the light". People are then looking towards him to stop the menance, believing that their hero will save them. This is why people are so frustrated with Synder's portrayal, since every thing Superman has done has been empty for the character that is the living embodiment of being a Hero. He sacrifices himself because he knows he can for others. Not just Lois, but anyone.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It was more Steve underestimated Diana in the conversation. She had no problem answering his questions while he remained speachless.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
That doesn't mean she's not a fish out of water. There's cultural and social cues that are going over each others heads. It's made quite clear
due Steve's bath when Diana doesn't seem to care but Steve does.
How? Other than Ludendorff and Dr. Poison, the other German officers expressed concern for their soldiers, and were in the middle of negotiating for peace to end the war. Only Ludendorff wanted it to carry on, hence him killing them.
And even among the British generals, they were painted as pieces of shit for their indifference to the loss of life among their troops.
Even Steve opens to Diana early on that the war can't just stop, and that it's "a whole big mess."
Yeah, I love it when movies completely undermine the plot and characterizations for one ham-fisted CGI-laden fight scene at the end.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You think this scene fits well during a fight where one side literally wants to throw you in jail? You don't believe it's tonally off or not well fitted?
Like, you do realize what you're defending right?
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Fuck no. Wonder Woman is a much better story. What did they copy? I enjoyed CA 1 and 2, but they are in different leagues.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Cap immediately realized Spider-Man is a kid and wanted to be a good role model to him so he could possibly be better than Tony.
What about Diana's characterization was undermined?
starchild excalibur
Member
The problem with Doctor Strange wasn't its use of bathos. Hell, I'd argue that the bit with the cape elevated what would have been a pretty standard, trope-y hero moment. The problem with Doctor Strange was that the character was Tony Stark-lite, but not as endearing or fun to watch. Rachel McAdams is largely useless in the film, Tilda Swinton is serviceable, but not written in a way that utilizes her strengths to the full degree it could have, Mads Mikkelsen's motivations and behavior are forgettable, and that ultimately the story is very cliché.
It's telling that the most standout elements of the film - the cape and the visuals - didn't involve the characters at all.
I agree with some films over-relying on bathos though and much of the rest of the video's arguments. And despite thinking that WW was solid, but not amazing, I will agree that its strength was in how they portrayed Diana as motivated by heroic ideals and unfettered optimism - something that's sorely lacking in that universe right now.
It's telling that the most standout elements of the film - the cape and the visuals - didn't involve the characters at all.
I agree with some films over-relying on bathos though and much of the rest of the video's arguments. And despite thinking that WW was solid, but not amazing, I will agree that its strength was in how they portrayed Diana as motivated by heroic ideals and unfettered optimism - something that's sorely lacking in that universe right now.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Something that the audience can chuckle at isn't immediately a joke. It was just a convo orchestrated to get the film's titular star face to face with the biggest star in Marvel's roster. And it fit. They would bond over the fact that they're both NY guys, even if they're fighting one another. Especially when neither of them really wants to be fighting the other. (Spidey's a fan of Cap and is just trying to impress Tony, Steve recognizes he's a kid immediately and also likely picks up on his heart and NY accent).
That you can analyze every film under the sun for subtle character moments but the MCU's is telling.
.
It's dripping off of some of these takes.
That's not a joke.
broncobuster
Banned
It's a very very superficial talking point when Wonder Woman is compared to Captain America TFA or Thor. Most of all the problem of ignoring how Wonder Woman the movie is influenced by a long history of Wonder Woman stories.
I quite liked this video. It finally puts a name--Bathos--to what I've felt about 70% of Marvel movies. Most of the heroic characters outside of the Captain America/SHIELD circle seem to act like a superpowered frat dude whose girlfriend finally tells him, "I think I'm falling in love with you. You make everything brighter." And the frat dude responds with a fart sound.
And judging from their trailers and reading in interviews, Thor: Ragnarok will probably be bathed in disgusting amount of bathos and Jeff Goldblum buffoonery. While I'm cautiously optimistic about Black Panther.
And judging from their trailers and reading in interviews, Thor: Ragnarok will probably be bathed in disgusting amount of bathos and Jeff Goldblum buffoonery. While I'm cautiously optimistic about Black Panther.
I agree. Except for SS.
Your argument centers around one party wanting to bring in the other. They're not trying to kill, maim, or even seriously injure each other. The tone is nowhere near as serious as you're making it.
Later in the fight, Cap finds himself fighting a kid - literally a pubescent kid. It doesn't start off with Cap being all 'happy fun times,' he tries to understand why Spiderman has gone against him. But after that, he takes a step back from the whole thing, and he tells Peter that he's a good kid and that the two of them have stuff in common. Spiderman isn't his enemy, just some talented kid with a good heart roped into a conflict he shouldn't be in. Cap is gonna be nice to him. Still not joking.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Very true. I'd say the second act of this film was one of the better ones. But execs and directors need to find out how to deal with the third act already. In WW it was particularly boring for me.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It is. It's written to get smirks and chuckles. It undermines the seriousness of the situation. It seems a lot of people don't necessarily care about tone as long as you get any reason for A occurring.
It's centered correctly. One side is trying really fucking hard to apprehend the others but then it turns into some weird Benny Hill stuff. It's A LOT like the opening to Age of Ultron where
they're making jokes about swearing while they're actually killing a bunch of goons: it's inconsistent because the movie wants you take it seriously but they're pulling shit like that.
It's just not well done.
Monocle
Member
Yeah no, that scene was character driven and cool. It was a battle of ideas as much as a physical brawl. If you really think it undermined the plot and characterization you must not have been paying attention to the content or context of the scene, to say nothing of the buildup and aftermath.
It's absurd to deny that this scene is a clash of principles that's motivated by the characters' divergent worldviews. Apparently you're dismissing it whole cloth because you don't like CG effects.
MugiwaraCole
Member
You seem to be harboring the delusion that a scene can be for more than one thing at once.
Which is weird, cause you prove capable of that level of nuance for any movie not made by Marvel Studios.
So I did something weird and watched the entire video before posting.
I think he's making a good argument with some poor examples, particularly the one in Doctor Strange. The joke he's contrasting with the Spiderman clip was pretty well set up in advance and, IIRC, was the release of a pretty long build up of tension that, for me at least, didn't actually detract from the moment.
Doctor Strange was also pretty disciplined, or at least more disciplined, about how it deployed jokes than most of the Marvel films. In particular the entire
He's also cherry picking with Civil War, a film with numerous sustained and very serious action scenes and character moments. Too many to list, really. The whole point of the airport showdown was to bounce the characters off one another, literally and otherwise. I agree it was tonally all over the place, but most of the rest of the film wasn't, so it's misleading to use that to paint the film with that brush.
All that said, I think he's clicked onto why I just don't feel that invested in the Marvel films despite enjoying them and watching almost all of them. They are fun but also feel utterly disposable to me. On the flip side, Wonder Woman's emotional heft hit me pretty hard, and I actually cried at
, and a big part of that was because of how sincere the relationship and characters are. No Marvel film has resonated anywhere nearly as strongly with me.
At this moment I'm more invested in Diana's character than I am in Tony Stark's, despite seeing who knows how many films with the latter. Marvel undercutting their drama constantly is probably part of the reason why, though not the only reason.
I think he's making a good argument with some poor examples, particularly the one in Doctor Strange. The joke he's contrasting with the Spiderman clip was pretty well set up in advance and, IIRC, was the release of a pretty long build up of tension that, for me at least, didn't actually detract from the moment.
Doctor Strange was also pretty disciplined, or at least more disciplined, about how it deployed jokes than most of the Marvel films. In particular the entire
action sequence that ends with the Ancient One's death, and her long, graceful death scene - the conversation as the snow fell - which went totally uninterrupted, tonally.
He's also cherry picking with Civil War, a film with numerous sustained and very serious action scenes and character moments. Too many to list, really. The whole point of the airport showdown was to bounce the characters off one another, literally and otherwise. I agree it was tonally all over the place, but most of the rest of the film wasn't, so it's misleading to use that to paint the film with that brush.
All that said, I think he's clicked onto why I just don't feel that invested in the Marvel films despite enjoying them and watching almost all of them. They are fun but also feel utterly disposable to me. On the flip side, Wonder Woman's emotional heft hit me pretty hard, and I actually cried at
Steve's death scene and the subsequent aftermath
At this moment I'm more invested in Diana's character than I am in Tony Stark's, despite seeing who knows how many films with the latter. Marvel undercutting their drama constantly is probably part of the reason why, though not the only reason.