Support NeoGAF

[Subpar Spatula]

That same character got their private resolution later on in the movie. Not that you can't criticize moments where the humor/jokes undercut these moments, but regardless, it was the most recent Marvel film that explored the characters. So switching it now it to "Oh, it's not a good example" doesn't really fly.

This is why I call MCU simple. Even though there is resolution it wasn't earned because the undercut or just flatout don't care about letting moments breathe, exist, and be digested. A lot of folks don't care about this butchery because they get a reason for why x occurred. Knowing why trumps any criticism for how it's staged it seems.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

Captain America remains one of the best Marvel films because it doesn't always undercut its emotional scenes with a joke.

I would argue Wonder Woman looks at Captain America and does it better.

No. WW had a pretty run of the mill story while Winter Soldier is one of the best CBM ever made. Even Civil War is better despite it having this shitty problem that 90%+ of the Marvel movies have.

Interesting that they have a word for Marvel's shallow, empty, hollow writing though. Bathos. They really have a word for everything.

 

[Zekes!]

Yes but I don't think making GotG 2 and Wonder Woman R-rated and serious would help at all.

Oh, my intention wasn't to say those movies should be R-rated and serious. What I liked about Logan was that it felt personal and grounded, but it was still very much a comic book movie. I appreciated the smaller scope (which is what I liked about the Wolverine up until its final act) whereas most other superhero movies tend to have larger scopes, and understandably so. I thought the way the narrative was handled in that movie was a lot stronger than most comic book movies. It was certainly better than most other X-Men movies.

 

[jmdajr]

"Cheesy is one of the words banned in my world. I'm tired of sincerity being something we have to be afraid of doing. It's been like that for 20 years, that the entertainment and art world has shied away from sincerity, real sincerity, because they feel they have to wink at the audience because that's what the kids like. We have to do the real stories now. The world is in crisis."

I'm not gonna get into a super hero movie war. But I love her quote. Sometimes I feel I can't enjoy so called cheesy things without having to feel some sort of guilt.

And this is just in general.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I'm not making anything up, GoTG2 exploration of it's characters is shallow at best.
From the end of the second movie compared to the first, only two maybe 3 characters have had any real progression: Nebula and Drax. Both of which were extremely shallow and one note and needed it. Otherwise Peter goes through a second movie of finding family in his friends even though thats literally the point of the first, Gamora learns to open up to Peter more but wait that's how the first movie ended, Rocket learned to stop being an incredible asshole which also happened in the first movie. Some will say that Groot being a baby messed him up, but the movie completely ignores their changed relationship. Peter and Yondu's relationship was also repeated this time, only they decided to hit you over the head with it.
There is hardly anything new here.

Gamora doesn't learn to open up more in the first movie, nor does she take any ownership in how shitty a person she'd been to Nebula until Nebula confronts her about it in Vol. 2.

Rocket's lesson is less "stop being an asshole" and more "hey, you're a dick sometimes. That's cool. We're still your friends and we're not going anywhere." As evidenced by "they came…even though he stole batteries he didn't need…" These Guardians will always be assholes. They have too much baggage. They just needed to accept that they're all going to remain together in spite of that (in fact, because of it).

Peter and Yondu's father/son relationship isn't touched on at all in the first movie. If anything, we're supposed to be surprised at exactly how much they care for each other in this one. Yeah, Yondu let's him go in the first movie, but that movie also very much begins with him threatening to kill him (and he almost does, twice). Yondu's growth is twofold as well, as he confronts his demons stemming from what he did for Ego and being ousted from the Ravagers.

I agree on Groot, who's really only used as a tool to show how the Guardians band together and raise him as a unit, but not much else individually.

This is leaving out Peter's growth, as well as the god-tier scene where Mantis touches a stoic looking Drax and is fucking floored by how much pain he carries with him on the regular.

tldr, I'm convinced you didn't even watch the fucking movie. Not liking it is fine. Ignnoring how much character work is present in it is silly.

 

[Alienous]

It's strange the the maker of the video let Whedon off of the hook so easily. Ultron is 'bathos' incarnate.

 

[Shredderi]

Ok, somebody please tell me what the fuck is this Bathos? Is it a character?

 

[midramble]

Ok, somebody please tell me what the fuck is this Bathos? Is it a character?

The god of bathing

 

[Shredderi]

The god of bathing

Figured as much.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Ok, somebody please tell me what the fuck is this Bathos? Is it a character?

Secret love child of Eros and Narcissus.

 

[hipsterpants]

Funny that there's a word explaining exactly why I haven't really loved a Marvel movie since TWS but I liked Wonder Woman so much. And anyone acting like GOTG2 isn't a victim of this is crazy when the final battle has dumb shit like the tape joke and Pac-Man.

Ok, somebody please tell me what the fuck is this Bathos? Is it a character?

Uh, the video literally explains it?

 

[Magwik]

Gamora doesn't learn to open up more in the first movie, nor does she take any ownership in how shitty a person she'd been to Nebula until Nebula confronts her about it in Vol. 2.

Rocket's lesson is less "stop being an asshole" and more "hey, you're a dick sometimes. That's cool. We're still your friends and we're not going anywhere." As evidenced by "they came…even though he stole batteries he didn't need…" These Guardians will always be assholes. They have too much baggage. They just needed to accept that they're all going to remain together in spite of that (in fact, because of it).

Peter and Yondu's father/son relationship isn't touched on at all in the first movie. If anything, we're supposed to be surprised at exactly how much they care for each other in this one. Yeah, Yondu let's him go in the first movie, but that movie also very much begins with him threatening to kill him (and he almost does, twice). Yondu's growth is twofold as well, as he confronts his demons stemming from what he did for Ego and being ousted from the Ravagers.

I agree on Groot, who's really only used as a tool to show how the Guardians band together and raise him as a unit, but not much else individually.

This is leaving out Peter's growth, as well as the god-tier scene where Mantis touches a stoic looking Drax and is fucking floored by how much pain he carries with him on the regular.

tldr, I'm convinced you didn't even watch the fucking movie. Not liking it is fine. Ignnoring how much character work is present in it is silly.

I did watch the movie. You can even go find my impressions in the spoiler thread being nearly identical. And I left out the Mantis and Drax scene because I felt like I didn't need to address it, as Drax himself gas the most growth and depth added to him in the sequel.

 

[Shredderi]

Uh, the video literally explains it?

:/

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I did watch the movie. You can even go find my impressions in the spoiler thread being nearly identical. And I left out the Mantis and Drax scene because I felt like I didn't need to address it, as Drax himself gas the most growth and depth added to him in the sequel.

Drax received the least amount though. Lmfao. Jesus.

 

[Ghazi]

What is that face?

 

[Cooter]

People are way over exaggerating about the third act of Wonder Woman. Weakest act of the film? Yes. Beyond terrible? No.

I brought this up yesterday. It's the new talking point for people who want to hate on WW. Within a couple weeks Wonder Woman suddenly had one of the worst third acts in recent memory. Like you said, probably the least strongest of the 3 acts but a disaster it is not.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I brought this up yesterday. It's the new talking point for people who want to hate on WW. Within a couple weeks Wonder Woman suddenly had one of the worst third acts in recent memory. Like you said, probably the least strongest of the 3 acts but a disaster it is not.

Within a couple of weeks?

We were (rightfully) complaining about it as early as opening night lmao

I loved the movie. Don't wanna hate on it. Third act was shit though.

It's okay. Honest.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Within a couple of weeks?

We were (rightfully) complaining about it as early as opening night lmao

I loved the movie. Don't wanna hate on it. Third act was shit though.

It's okay. Honest.

WW third act is fine. Sure, it's not the best CGI out there but it is consistent with character arcs and themes in the movie.

It's like when people say Spider-Man 2 is dated or bad because the CGI doesn't hold up: that's not the fucking point, listen to the dialogue and look at the meaning of the characters' actions and how it ties into the rest of the movie.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

WW third act is fine. Sure, it's not the best CGI out there but it is consistent with character arcs and themes in the movie.

It's like when people say Spider-Man 2 is dated or bad because the CGI doesn't hold up: that's not the fucking point, listen to the dialogue and look at the meaning of the characters' actions.

Nah. It's bad.

Spider-Man 2 surprisingly holds up pretty well as a film in its own right, it's the take on Spidey that's way past due for correction.

 

[cr0w]

I hear people on this website say Wonder Woman has a terrible third act, and me I'm here wondering what you guys are talking about because I loved the third act and ending.

It's the "seagull" effect.

https://youtu.be/H4BNbHBcnDI

Once two or more posters share the same opinion, it starts being echoed by those who were standing by waiting for something to complain about. Once they latch into something, it's all over.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Did anyone find this movie's portrayal of WWI really... weird? It tries to reframe it as a good vs evil story, which just... is really not something you can do with WWI very easily.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

What is that face?

Better Cliff Chiang face:

Did anyone find this movie's portrayal of WWI really... weird? It tries to reframe it as a good vs evil story, which just... is really not something you can do with WWI very easily.

The evil was specifically the one German general and Dr. Poison.

 

[Cooter]

Within a couple of weeks?

We were (rightfully) complaining about it as early as opening night lmao

I loved the movie. Don't wanna hate on it. Third act was shit though.

It's okay. Honest.

Not shit. Honest. You heard the 3rd act complaint once in a while but recently it's picked up. Like, WW has been getting too much love for too long. Time to even things out! This 3rd act is what every director should be required to watch to learn what not to do. It's that bad.

I've seen it twice and I've seen terrible 3rd acts. This is not one of them. Spotty CGI doesn't propel an act into disaster territory. One may not particularly enjoy WWs 3rd act but that doesn't make it bad film making.

 

[TheXbox]

JJ Abrams balances humor and sincerity better than any of the directors in this video. The Force Awakens has plenty of quips and moments of self-parody (its probably the funniest Star Wars movie ever), but it never undercuts its own drama. Look for some lame-ass jokes when Rey snatches Anakin's lightsaber out of the air, or when she ascends the Jedi Steps on Ahch To. You won't find any.

Same shit with Star Trek. That movie is fucking hilarious, and the opening five minutes still make people cry.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

JJ Abrams balances humor and sincerity better than any of the directors in this video. The Force Awakens has plenty of quips and moments of self-parody (its probably the funniest Star Wars movie ever), but it never undercuts its own drama. Look for some lame-ass jokes when Rey snatches Anakin's lightsaber out of the air, or when she ascends the Jedi Steps on Ahch To. You won't find any.

Same shit with Star Trek. That movie is fucking hilarious, and the opening five minutes still make people cry.

I'll never understand the people that hate the use of Beastie Boys throughout the movies.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Nah. It's bad.

Spider-Man 2 surprisingly holds up pretty well as a film in its own right, it's the take on Spidey that's way past due for correction.

I don't get why it's bad:

Spoiler

Steve resolves to help Diana by giving up on his desire to fuck the war up

Steve displays his desire to do what's needed (which is whu Diana loves him because they have that in common but Steve suppresses it due to war politics)

Diana learns of humanities innate evil and chooses to help regardless (because she bas been shown humanity are capable of beauty, love, and good)

Ares acts as a final trial in her journey to overcome and accept humanity's innate evil. He exists to show that humanity is evil regardless so join him because her actions are for not.

Which then ties into Diana's whole journey of seeing and understanding both sides of the coin.

Like you can call those bad if you want but all it shows is you're not actually paying attention to the characters, dialogue, and overall themes of the movie.

 

[jon bones]

this is why i'm glad the russos are heading up marvel & whedon has moved to the dceu

civil war in particular had some real sincerity and genuine emotion throughout - can't wait to see what they do with each character in IW & A4

 

[Subpar Spatula]

this is why i'm glad the russos are heading up marvel & whedon has moved to the dceu

civil war in particular had some real sincerity and genuine emotion throughout - can't wait to see what they do with each character in IW & A4

It's hard to say that when they shoe horn a battle scene where no one seems to really care that they're trying to hurt / kill each other.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

this is why i'm glad the russos are heading up marvel & whedon has moved to the dceu

civil war in particular had some real sincerity and genuine emotion throughout - can't wait to see what they do with each character in IW & A4

I felt like Tony always acts a bit schizo with how he goes back and forth between being funny and being super serious and then back to being funny.

 

[jon bones]

It's hard to say that when they shoe horn a battle scene where no one seems to really care that they're trying to hurt / kill each other.

they specifically call out how each team is trying to subdue or get through the other

the only person trying to hurt someone black panther

I felt like Tony always acts a bit schizo with how he goes back and forth between being funny and being super serious and then back to being funny.

yeah he is clearly kind of a messed up guy - he swings around emotionally and is not great at processing it

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

yeah he is clearly kind of a messed up guy

It's brought up a little in Iron Man 3 and Civil War but the movies don't explore it more.

 

[BKatastrophe]

CAP TWS. Is about Steve and Natasha (Seriously Marvel how did you screw that up?)

What do you mean? As in romantically? It's not the relationship the Russos were going for. They wanted a platonic relationship. I believe they used the specific term for Natasha as Cap's "work wife". Which I fully support. Leslie Knope and Ron Swanson and Liz Lemon and Jack Donaghy are both perfect examples of a similar relationship. And they are better for it.

We really can't talk comic books movies, can we?

Sigh.

Without it becoming a total shitfest? No. No we can't.

Did anyone find this movie's portrayal of WWI really... weird? It tries to reframe it as a good vs evil story, which just... is really not something you can do with WWI very easily.

I didn't think it did that.

Spoiler

I feel like the scene where whatshisname and Dr. Poison killed that room full of generals made it clear that it was a very small group that wanted to keep it going. Ares is the villain, and he pushed the treaty.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

they specifically call out how each team is trying to subdue or get through the other

the only person trying to hurt someone black panther

And the only emotions they show are?

Spoiler

Like, if one of my really good friends was trying to capture me to literally toss me in prison, I wouldn't be in a jokey manner.

It's why people rightfully call it tonally inconsistent because they have segmented fun parts and sincere parts that don't look good overall.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Super Hero films still need a better third act

 

[Magwik]

I don't get why it's bad:

Spoiler

Steve resolves to help Diana by giving up on his desire to fuck the war up

Steve displays his desire to do what's needed (which is whu Diana loves him because they have that in common but Steve suppresses it due to war politics)

Diana learns of humanities innate evil and chooses to help regardless (because she bas been shown humanity are capable of beauty, love, and good)

Ares acts as a final trial in her journey to overcome and accept humanity's innate evil. He exists to show that humanity is evil regardless so join him because her actions are for not.

Which then ties into Diana's whole journey of seeing and understanding both sides of the coin.

Like you can call those bad if you want but all it shows is you're not actually paying attention to the characters, dialogue, and overall themes of the movie.

I'll give you my take on why I didn't like the third act of Wonder Woman. Don't know if anyone else agrees with me though:

Spoiler

Basically you have Diana head strong and certain that it's Ares, and the movie tells you it's probably Ares. It has Ares around doing evil things trying to keep the war going.

But then Steve comes in and says "hey maybe it isn't Ares" which puts doubt in us, but not Diana.

So by the time we reach the airfield, the second she kills the general, both us, and her and confused about the war not stopping. Then comes the realization that Steve was right.

Instead of building up on that (and something that would have been a beautiful subversion of superhero climaxes), it turns out that guess what, it was actually Ares! Sort of! He was just "whispering in their ears" and suggests that he isn't responsible for the war.

But the Ares is defeated and the German soldiers all become joyous and happy and the war ends, suggesting is was actually Ares.

Steve's sacrifice highlights the best part of humanity, and is an incredibly important scene and emotional one, however everything surrounding it is just a waste of time.

Bonus nega points for Ares having a stupid twist to being the posh British dude.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Their being worse third acts doesn't make Wonder Woman's good.

I don't get why it's bad:

Spoiler

Steve resolves to help Diana by giving up on his desire to fuck the war up

Steve displays his desire to do what's needed (which is whu Diana loves him because they have that in common but Steve suppresses it due to war politics)

Diana learns of humanities innate evil and chooses to help regardless (because she bas been shown humanity are capable of beauty, love, and good)

Ares acts as a final trial in her journey to overcome and accept humanity's innate evil. He exists to show that humanity is evil regardless so join him because her actions are for not.

Which then ties into Diana's whole journey of seeing and understanding both sides of the coin.

Like you can call those bad if you want but all it shows is you're not actually paying attention to the characters, dialogue, and overall themes of the movie.

I'm not sure you should be complaining about people missing characters/dialogue/etc given your very poor take of Guardians 2.

 

[Spinluck]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.
Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRK-6FPnk_I

The above scene is much better than the fuckery that is WW's 3rd act.

WW as a whole was good though, but what you said is bullshit.

Civil War even had a better 3rd act imo, the emotional stakes felt better executed as well. Better than Gadot's WW just yelling into some shitty rage in a

Spoiler

crappy fight vs Final Boss Ares.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I'll give you my take on why I didn't like the third act of Wonder Woman. Don't know if anyone else agrees with me though:

Spoiler

Bonus nega points for Ares having a stupid twist to being the posh British dude.

New 52:

Spoiler

I thought it was a nice callback.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRK-6FPnk_I

The above scene is much better than the fuckery that is WW's 3rd act.

How? I saw both movies and they culminate with the same character dialogues and wrap up the theme of each film. The only thing "shitty" about WW's third act is the arguably messy CGI, which looked fine on my screen and probably to every person seeing it in the theater. It's not a surprise that people on a gaming forum can nitpick the CG, considering, but most of the audience didn't even see the imperfections.

 

[Shaanyboi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRK-6FPnk_I

The above scene is much better than the fuckery that is WW's 3rd act.

I'd say Diana's exchange with Steve when she realizes humanity's true nature is stronger than that scene between Cap and Bucky. Like are you lumping in an entire section of run-time as a third act, or are you trying to criticize the cg fight?

 

[broncobuster]

Super Hero films still need a better third act

Blockbusters in general do. Some of the stories of how the final set pieces are cobbled together, I don't get why it's a tripping point.

 

[Cooter]

I'll give you my take on why I didn't like the third act of Wonder Woman. Don't know if anyone else agrees with me though:

Spoiler

Basically you have Diana head strong and certain that it's Ares, and the movie tells you it's probably Ares. It has Ares around doing evil things trying to keep the war going.

But then Steve comes in and says "hey maybe it isn't Ares" which puts doubt in us, but not Diana.

So by the time we reach the airfield, the second she kills the general, both us, and her and confused about the war not stopping. Then comes the realization that Steve was right.

Instead of building up on that (and something that would have been a beautiful subversion of superhero climaxes), it turns out that guess what, it was actually Ares! Sort of! He was just "whispering in their ears" and suggests that he isn't responsible for the war.

But the Ares is defeated and the German soldiers all become joyous and happy and the war ends, suggesting is was actually Ares.

Steve's sacrifice highlights the best part of humanity, and is an incredibly important scene and emotional one, however everything surrounding it is just a waste of time.

Bonus nega points for Ares having a stupid twist to being the posh British dude.

Ummmm....

Spoiler

The soldiers were joyous because they just witnessed two Gods battle to the death and survived. I imagine that would turn your entire world upside down and make you question your existence.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRK-6FPnk_I

The above scene is much better than the fuckery that is WW's 3rd act.

WW as a whole was good though, but what you said is bullshit.

Civil War even had a better 3rd act imo, the emotional stakes felt better executed as well. Better than Gadot's WW just yelling into some shitty rage in a

Spoiler

crappy fight vs Final Boss Ares.

She

Spoiler

felt rage and then she felt in control and in peace after realizing she brings hope and uses her new god powers to destroy Ares.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I'll give you my take on why I didn't like the third act of Wonder Woman. Don't know if anyone else agrees with me though:

Spoiler

Basically you have Diana head strong and certain that it's Ares, and the movie tells you it's probably Ares. It has Ares around doing evil things trying to keep the war going.

But then Steve comes in and says "hey maybe it isn't Ares" which puts doubt in us, but not Diana.

So by the time we reach the airfield, the second she kills the general, both us, and her and confused about the war not stopping. Then comes the realization that Steve was right.

Instead of building up on that (and something that would have been a beautiful subversion of superhero climaxes), it turns out that guess what, it was actually Ares! Sort of! He was just "whispering in their ears" and suggests that he isn't responsible for the war.

But the Ares is defeated and the German soldiers all become joyous and happy and the war ends, suggesting is was actually Ares.

Steve's sacrifice highlights the best part of humanity, and is an incredibly important scene and emotional one, however everything surrounding it is just a waste of time.

Bonus nega points for Ares having a stupid twist to being the posh British dude.

But it does make sense. You're just not liking it and misconstruing some parts:

Spoiler

Steve suggests it's not Ares because you're literally given a bunch of characters who fall within a spectrum of good. You have Patrick (Ares) who wants to have peace, German Generals who want Peace, evil General and Poison who want death, people who have had their own people taken over by another group of people, an actor who wants to entertain, etc. It's hard to believe that everything is black and white, and the movie wants you to pick up on this and it's absolutely vital that you do.

Her understanding the war wasn't caused by Ares is 100% vital to you enjoying the core of the movie. Ares only whispered, he never engaged in waging wars because you are to accept that humanity is capable of being cruel without Ares. Which is what Diana accepts at the end because not everything is black and white.

The German soliders don't stop because Ares influence was gone -- there's nothing to suggest his existence actually influences people because he literally tells you he was whispering. Everything else is a "story" handed down. The Germans celebrating was because they're glad to be alive. At the end of the day they're still human with families, friends, just because they were on the "evil" side doesn't mean they can't be happy.

Christmas Truce

Wonder Woman herself is a character who exists to be black and white (she's inherently good) but she's in a world that isn't black and white so you see her journey to understand this.

I'm not sure you should be complaining about people missing characters/dialogue/etc given your very poor take of Guardians 2.

I criticize GotG2 and the response is to follow me to another thread to tell me my criticism sucked without explaining why.

I really do have an amazing set of followers.

 

[Kettch]

As long as the writers don't learn to use those super awkward dick/sex jokes at the start, it's all good.

 

[NHarmonic.]

I'd say Diana's exchange with Steve when she realizes humanity's true nature is stronger than that scene between Cap and Bucky. Like are you lumping in an entire section of run-time as a third act, or are you trying to criticize the cg fight?

Agreed there, completely.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

As long as the writers don't learn to use those super awkward dick/sex jokes at the start, it's all good.

I liked that scene. They were both fishes out of water so it was quite interesting to see how it played out and they did it wonderfully.

 

[Dalek]

New 52:

Spoiler

I thought it was a nice callback.

Shit I completely forgot about this.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Agreed there, completely.

I loved the scene

Spoiler

right after the gas hits the village where Diana questions Steve and Steve just says, "he's over there" cause at some point you can't be indifferent to atrocities.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

As long as the writers don't learn to use those super awkward dick/sex jokes at the start, it's all good.

Both

Spoiler

Diana and Steve had a grown up discussion about sex.

It wasn't awkward. You want awkward go see The Last Knight.