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[WrenchNinja]

https://youtu.be/w-QhdzQo66o

Video goes into a comparison of Spider-Man 2 and Doctor Strange, and how the latter cuts drama for a joke. Then goes into how bathos has sort of consumed how a lot of movies have been written, as poor mimicry of Joss Whedon's style since the Avengers. It's as if movies are afraid to be sincere or show emotion honestly. Wonder Woman is an example of sincerity.

A quote from Patty Jenkins in an interview with the New York Times is used (https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/movies/wonder-woman-gal-gadot-patty-jenkins.html):

"Cheesy is one of the words banned in my world. I’m tired of sincerity being something we have to be afraid of doing. It’s been like that for 20 years, that the entertainment and art world has shied away from sincerity, real sincerity, because they feel they have to wink at the audience because that’s what the kids like. We have to do the real stories now. The world is in crisis."

Anyway I thought it was worth a watch

 

[jdstorm]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

 

[Boylamite]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

I enjoyed wonder woman so much more than the two captain America movies I watched. By a huge margin.

 

[Raigan5088]

Women in breastplates

 

[UnemployedVillain]

They probably shouldn't point to superheroes whose personalities are snarky/sarcastic/quippy as examples what not to do when they're fundamentally written differently. Captain America would be a more apt comparison

 

[Mariolee]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

Captain America remains one of the best Marvel films because it doesn't always undercut its emotional scenes with a joke.

I would argue Wonder Woman looks at Captain America and does it better.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

It's way more like the first Thor

 

[HStallion]

Don't worry. Justice League will fix all those things about Wonder Woman.

 

[Diprosalic]

not much as the script is not very strong.

 

[midramble]

Would people agree that DC has been riding the sincerity train this whole time?

Problem is the emotional spectrum was limited to anger, regret, and fear?

Courage feels like it's kinda been left out.

Humor doesn't remove sincerity I believe. If done right it can accent it through contrast.

I need to watch WW.

 

[Certinty]

Well Wonder Woman could learn from a lot of other superhero movies how to not have a final act which is beyond terrible too.

 

[reKon]

Is this one of those IGN vein type pieces?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Wonder Woman and Spider-Man 2 are well done. Thematically and emotionally on point through out so it resonates well.

MCU is simple because you get told x is done because y occured and you just believe it. But it's not honest or sincere because it's simple and they lured you with a simple reason.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Would people agree that DC has been riding the sincerity train this whole time?

Problem is the emotional spectrum was limited to anger, regret, and fear?

This is a pretty good take. The DCEU as it stands is very earnest, it's just that the things its being earnest about are kinda mean-spirited and shitty.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I enjoyed wonder woman so much more than the two captain America movies I watched. By a huge margin.

I don't like comparing the two, because Wonder Woman was great, but, let's not do this. The Winter Soldier is arguably the best movie in the genre.

Patty won me over with that quote not long ago. She has my sword.

I'm

Wonder Woman and Spider-Man 2 are well done. Thematically and emotionally on point through out so it resonates well.

MCU is simple because you get told x is done because y occured and you just believe it. But it's not honest or sincere because it's simple and they lured you with a simple reason.

Like…what is this even.

 

[SolidChamp]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

 

[reKon]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

I didn't feel that way about Civil War.

 

[gamz]

I agree and I'll throw in James Cameron's Titanic and Avatar being non-cynical.

And Sense8. Stuff like this is rare these days.

 

[LionPride]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

Lol

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Well Wonder Woman could learn from a lot of other superhero movies how to not have a final act which is beyond terrible too.

I don't know why superhero movies have such fucking terrible final acts. Maybe it's because they're almost required to have a fight with the main villain?! I think the ones that do it best are those where the final villain isn't necessarily brought down in a traditional "fight" (TDK, DOFP, X2) or ones that just have crazy shit happen and have a satisfying confrontation (1st Class, Spiderman 2). And then there are those that falter a bit with the second type, but still do fairly well (Winter Soldier)

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

If you watched The Last Knight the entire movie is drunk with bathos.

 

[black070]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

This thread is going places.

 

[Mariolee]

Well Wonder Woman could learn from a lot of other superhero movies how to not have a final act which is beyond terrible too.

Beyond terrible is not how I would characterize that final act at all. It was a competent thoroughly emotional sequence hampered by a subpar CG battle with a villain we had no investment in.

Any third act that gets me teary eyed like Wonder Woman did is fine by me. Not great, but not terrible.

 

[Timeaisis]

Writers can learn what not to do during the third act of a film.

 

[jrush64]

I hear people on this website say Wonder Woman has a terrible third act, and me I'm here wondering what you guys are talking about because I loved the third act and ending.

 

[gamz]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

Disagree. GOTG was very sincere.

 

[LotusHD]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

Lol

I don't know why superhero movies have such fucking terrible final acts. Maybe it's because they're almost required to have a fight with the main villain?! I think the ones that do it best are those where the final villain isn't necessarily brought down in a traditional "fight" (TDK, DOFP, X2) or ones that just have crazy shit happen and have a satisfying confrontation (1st Class, Spiderman 2). And then there are those that falter a bit with the second type, but still do fairly well (Winter Soldier)

Here's to hoping Homecoming has a good third act. I hear it does, but guess we'll see.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Disagree. GOTG was very sincere.

GotG punctuates almost all their sincere moments with a joke and the offending part is these joke inserts are not even relevant to what the movie is about.

It's downright confusing.

 

[Veelk]

I disagree with some of his examples. Notably, Civil War. For me, a well designed Bathos moment doesn't take away from the drama of what is happening. Tony Stark snarking is well established to be not just a characteristic but a compulsion from which he is unable to stop in almost any event in he experiences. For me, Tony Stark making lines that are 100% in character doesn't take away from the drama that he is confronting his friends. It's almost like it's not even a joke to him, it's just how he speaks.

You don't need to look at stark though. When I saw The Dark Knight in theaters, half the lines the Joker gave were funny and the audience laughed without losing a single instance of not just the drama, but also the sheer uncomfortable menace.

So I agree with him that using Bathos has the risk of undercutting the drama (ultron was really bad at this), but I disagree that it's a sure thing.

And I do agree with his larger point that I wish more movies were made with the authenticity of Wonder Woman.

 

[LotusHD]

GotG punctuates almost all their sincere moments with a joke and the offending part is these joke inserts are not even relevant to what the movie is about.

It's downright confusing.

It's kind of the point, at least for some of the characters.

 

[yanipheonu]

The script has problems, but unlike BvS, it got right what needed to be right. WW feels like an earnest and sincere portrayal of a genuinely good and heroic character.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Writers can learn what not to do during the third act of a film.

I'd rather they learn from the mistakes of X-Men: Apocalypse' third act than Wonder Woman, which didn't feel the need to drag on.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

This issue with bathos plagued the new Mummy movie. The movie didn't seem like it was sure if you should be thrilled, scared, or laughing at any one moment so it went for it all in every scene. There isn't a sincere moment in the entire film. Every attempt at showing characters connecting is immediately undercut within seconds.

 

[Not]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

This Is A Very Innovative Take

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.

lol

Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).

lol

 

[Jezan]

I didn't feel that way about Civil War.

It was like a better written fanfic, Steve being an asshole to Tony (and everyone) just because he can't fucking tell anyone he is in love with Bucky.

 

[elyetis]

Meh, I did enjoy WW but I sure didn't feel like the serious 'drama' scenes ( mostly when it comes to death and/or romance ) was an actual positive to the movie more like the opposite.

 

[WillyFive]

Writers can learn what not to do during the third act of a film.

You mean the part that made it great?

 

[border]

It's weird that people seem to think that cheese and sincerity are in short supply in Marvel, or superhero films in general. Spider Man films had some super-cringe cheesy moments. Iron Man 3 grinds to a halt while Tony Stark hangs out with a little kid because awwww isn't that cute. X-Men flicks have been pretty light on irony or self-reflexive gags.

Batman v Superman and Man of Steel were solemn as fuck. They were awful, but they were at least aspiring to some level of sincerity.

 

[LotusHD]

You mean the part that made it great?

What? It's not as bad as people make it out to be, but I wouldn't go that far.

 

[Prompto]

Beyond terrible is not how I would characterize that final act at all. It was a competent thoroughly emotional sequence hampered by a subpar CG battle with a villain we had no investment in.

Any third act that gets me teary eyed like Wonder Woman did is fine by me. Not great, but not terrible.

People are way over exaggerating about the third act of Wonder Woman. Weakest act of the film? Yes. Beyond terrible? No.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

GotG was fine with it's bathos. We have a movie with a talking raccoon and they needed to add a little humor to get the audience to relate to him and the characters so that no one is stuck being perplexed that the characters are taking this raccoon seriously, or taking a lot of the weird stuff in that movie seriously. The sequel on the other hand could have learned from the first movie.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

It was like a better written fanfic, Steve being an asshole to Tony (and everyone) just because he can't fucking tell anyone he is in love with Bucky.

I genuinely don't understand where anyone who watches Civil War and thinks Steve Rogers was wrong is coming from lmao

 

[jdstorm]

This Is A Very Innovative Take

Cap 1 and 2 are two of the better superhero films in existence. I hope Wonder Woman 2 does borrow a lot thematically from Captain America: The Winter Soilder.

Spoiler

Then by the time Wonder Woman 3 rolls around hopefully they will remember that Civil War is bad and write a better conclusion.

 

[Nev]

I hear people on this website say Wonder Woman has a terrible third act, and me I'm here wondering what you guys are talking about because I loved the third act and ending.

The narrative is already set in stone. The ''Dark Souls' second half is trash'' effect. Don't take them too seriously.

It's funny too because the first act is by far the worst thing about the movie and immensely worse than the third.

Spider-Man 1 & 2, Blade and Deadpool are easily the best Marvel movies. What a strange coincidence.

 

[Magwik]

ITT people defend Marvel films lack of serious storytelling by just posting lol at other posters

 

[MugiwaraCole]

It's funny too because the first act is by far the worst thing about the movie and immensely worse than the third.

Which version of Wonder Woman did you watch? I saw the theatrical cut.

 

[MisterHero]

To Copy Paste Captain America Films?

Copy paste Superman 78.

Spider-Man 1 & 2 did it.

Anyways, while Cap TFA is my favorite MCU movie, I thought Iron Man 1 was successful in creating a hero out of a dipshit Tony Stark. IM1 is more successful to me BECAUSE it doesn't adhere to Superman's formula. Unfortunately he continues being a dipshit

 

[Nafai1123]

I think the main difference between WW and something like the MCU was that, despite may scenes feeling lighthearted in nature, they weren't afraid to be serious and sincere when dealing with war/violence/heroism. The No Mans Land scene is so spectacular because it's not just about her becoming a superhero, but it portrays that struggle sincerely without feeling the necessity to add snark or humor. The MCU has a problem of pushing that type of snark/humor despite the odds or situation the protagonists are facing, or the possible repercussions of failure, which gives those scenes less of a punch.

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman]

Bathos? I learned a new word today.
But yeah, I did appreciate Wonder Woman's sincerity. That's definitely an ingredient that is very present in some of my favorite comic-book films like Superman, Spider-Man 2, the Cap trilogy, etc. Although it did cause some laughter during my showing unfortunately and that definitely ruined some moments for me. Goddamn teenagers.

I couldn't stand Age of Ultron and Doctor Strange because of the dialogs, although I do think there's a way to do it well, like in Civil War.