dugdug
Banned
Isn't boycotting their games literally blaming the company for it?
Which is totally anyone's right, of course, just saying. Plenty of people here and elsewhere have said they're done with ND as a result of this.
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Kotaku: Former and current ND employees about the allegations
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
Isn't boycotting their games literally blaming the company for it?
Which is totally anyone's right, of course, just saying. Plenty of people here and elsewhere have said they're done with ND as a result of this.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
I'm dumbfounded by the shit-headedness of the dude Megan is referring to in her tweet.
At the same time I'm baffled by the folks who seem to want to insist on equating (possibly) one harassing asshole with an entire dev. studio.
It's nothing less than jumping to the absolute worst conclusion, when we take what little information has been provided so far and assume an entire studio is a cesspool of sexual deviants enabled by their organisation and peers.
Lets all try to maintain a level head shall we folks.
At the same time I'm baffled by the folks who seem to want to insist on equating (possibly) one harassing asshole with an entire dev. studio.
It's nothing less than jumping to the absolute worst conclusion, when we take what little information has been provided so far and assume an entire studio is a cesspool of sexual deviants enabled by their organisation and peers.
Lets all try to maintain a level head shall we folks.
Read the first pages of the original thread, let's see what you think about "Fuck Naughty Dog" or "Never buying more games from them".
As if it was Mr. Naughty Dog who harrassed either Ballard or Megan. In no way it has been proven that the company has promoted this behavior, to me it seems like two devs, who happen to work in the same company, are very bad people (maybe it's the same one, even). And probably they're not the only ones, but that's just statistics. There's no way less than 0.1% of such a big pool of people are sexists, sadly.
Jeez, I hope I never work for a place like that...
Though regarding ND's statement, honestly in the event that they're not outright lying (and I hope that they have more common sense than that, especially in this climate; it'd be a lose-lose situation for them), I'm not sure how else they could phrase it. They were very careful in saying they had no record of an investigation - which again, doesn't rule out the possibility that he was in verbal talks with HR - but if they don't have a record of the complaints, then they don't have it. They don't really have a way to save face in this situation by lending credence to his complaint, since he's saying they ignored his claims. If they say there are no claims, well...that ends it.
I wonder what the guy will do now, though. Will he just go silent and fade away, or will he surface with some sort of paper trail, or will he get a lawyer and enter a legal battle?
Audioboxer
Member
How ND responds to this is of course going to result in how consumers might react. So far due to the nature of the claims not having any audio/visual evidence that we are aware of, ND are responding as you'd expect. Nothing quite wrong with their response yet, so going straight to conspiracy theories and coverups isn't too wise.
The thing here is real life isn't necessarily like a sitcom on TV where the outcome is going to get tied up in a neat bow. The accusers here might need to lawyer up and go to court against ND/their employee(s) if they don't have easily identifiable evidence to put out there/there is no witness testimony. If they understandably do not want to go through all the legal battles, then gamers might, unfortunately, get left with a situation where there is a stalemate and not an ending to all of this where ND can fire people in response to accusations to win back some public feeling of justice.
Right now investigations need to be going on, but there is a little bit of waiting to see if the accusers can show any evidence/how they proceed legally.
Naughty Dog the company, and their employees are two entirely different things.
When people say America bombs innocent people, they're calling out the American government (and the apologists), not all 300 million Americans.
CannonFodder52
Member
The thing is, people would be giving the same "screw this company" response if this was Burger King or Hasbro stuff going on and I don't anyone would be trying to police their responses.
It just seems like people are hyper sensitive to other people's negative responses right now because it's a game studio.
That example doesn't really work, because democracy, as it works in a country, allows that 51% percent of the adult population choose a leader that might be willing to bomb innocent people, yet I wouldn't consider 150 million americans murderers.
Of course, I agree with you that in a company that isn't how it works, the CEO is not voted. Still neither Naughty Dog, neither their products, neither their philosophy assaulted anyone. Those two devs did, and I will repeat: a person is not a company, the assaulters should be punished, there's no other culprit.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
whether you like it or not, you represent your employer when it comes to work shit
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Some of you act like just because of one or two potential bad apples means Naughty Dog as a whole shouldn't be scrutinized for it. Dude, any action from each and every of the worker in a company, good or bad will reflect on the image of the company depending on the severity.
That's why it's crucial that ND sort this out quickly, because a single black sheep alone can seriously hurt their reputation.
That's why it's crucial that ND sort this out quickly, because a single black sheep alone can seriously hurt their reputation.
I'm saying that's what people mean when they say "Fuck Naughty Dog" or "Boycott Naughty Dog", people are talking about the corporation, not the people that work there.
Jawbreaker
Member
Emotional responses lack the nuance that reflection later affords. Looking at it from that perspective, I understand some of those reactions. Sexual harassment should not be tolerated, and these allegations understandably upset people — especially those that have experienced it.
Those who choose to boycott Naughty Dog or Sony should be free to do so for any reason, even if you disagree with how they arrived at their conclusions. It's possible that they weren't big fans to begin with, which makes it easier to establish a personal boycott. We can't reasonably refuse to give our patronage to everything that's manufactured or upheld in part by odiousness, but it's easier when these things are nonessential.
I'm not going to stop buying their products, but I don't think we should castigate others for making that personal decision. Sure, there may be some posts that were written in bad faith, but we can't assume that of everyone.
Sure, I understood it. Yet if, let's say, The Last of Us 2 sells half of the first game because of this, maybe the studio decides that 100 of those employers might not be needed anymore. Did they assault anyone? Probably no, but suddenly they're jobless.
Of course, I'm exaggerating, there won't be any difference in sales, 99% of the audience will never hear about this stuff (sadly, because it should be broadcasted), and everyone is free to do whatever they want, I'm just pointing how I don't agree with that point of view..
Astral Dog
Member
That cpuld have been because the harassment, i don't see how one thing contradicts the other.
🤔
Astral Dog
Member
Lol.whats up with Gaf and game sales
If that happens, then you blame the company, not the people that are not happy with their behavior.
I just want to say in regards to the discussion on this page that not buying a videogame every 2ish years is a very benign action. I don't at the moment plan on boycotting Naughty Dog games, but doing so wouldn't really be some extreme punishment of the company. The are not entitled to my patronage, and I can chose to spend my money elsewhere if I feel like a situation is being handled poorly (or for any other reason. God knows I've passed on games for dumber reasons than this). That doesn't mean I'm deciding everybody or most people at Naughty Dog are "bad people" (which itself is a malleable concept). It just means that when presented the option of how to spend $60/my free-time, I chose something else.
We're going in circles, because again, the company hasn't done anything, but you would be punishing the company and potentially all of their employees for something that two guys, that happened to work there, did (one, admitedly, within the company, that's way more serious, and still unproven unfortunately), the other one in an undefined context (probably outside work, because no one would enter Naughty Dog and present themselves as a reporter, the only way it could have happened in a work enviroment would be in a game preview or something like that, and I found really hard to believe that, in the middle of a public event, a representative of the company would ask her who does she fuck with).
I don't think anyone believes that Naughty Dog is some kind of sexual harassment gang. They think sexual harassment happens at the company, and if people know, they have chosen not to do anything about it. In the case that this is a cultural issue, it doesn't mean that every single person in the company has to involved, or even most people, just enough to be necessary to allow this to continue.
CannonFodder52
Member
Someone said something along the lines of this in a previous thread.
People will decide not to play certain games for the most benign reasons, from an aesthetic they don't like, protagonist they don't relate to, a vibe that doesn't groove with them, a bad commercial. The slightest thing can make a regular consumer skip a game.
Yet when they are discussing skipping a game due to problematic celebrities or stuff like what's gone on here, people crawl out of the woodwork to heckle them or appeal to the well-being of the company.
People will decide not to play certain games for the most benign reasons, from an aesthetic they don't like, protagonist they don't relate to, a vibe that doesn't groove with them, a bad commercial. The slightest thing can make a regular consumer skip a game.
Yet when they are discussing skipping a game due to problematic celebrities or stuff like what's gone on here, people crawl out of the woodwork to heckle them or appeal to the well-being of the company.
Audioboxer
Member
Those things are all subjective. Sexual harassment isn't subjective, it's true or false. Either the accusations made did happen, or they didn't.
While I know for a fact there are people more concerned about how their favourite studio might come out of this rather than potential victims, when there isn't hard evidence at this stage some do react to others stating like it's factual a conspiracy and coverup is definitely happening. Whether for bad intentions (my favourite games studio!!) or simply being pragmatic, some will quote other posters acting like they know things for a fact when they do not.
Being on the outside during a situation like this when there isn't screencaps/audio or video or public witness testimony/names does not put any of us in any real strong positions to make claims like we're in a position of knowledge.
No, I'm not saying that about you. The above is a general statement as to why some are responding negatively to others who might be making speculative claims. As I said for us on the outside of this right now it's not really possible to do anything other than giving opinions, not facts. Sometimes opinions that are based around coverups/conspiracies get met quite poorly as they do not really help anything at this stage.
I really hope that you aren't saying that I am, for debating this with you guys, suddenly covering everything up or making up facts, especially when the first thing I have said in all of this threads is "The culprits must be punished" over and over again.
CannonFodder52
Member
Sure, I guess this is slight bit different to some other examples over the last year, at least at the moment.
I just feel as though there's a trend where some people seem radically opposed to people skipping out on games due to political reasons, when the actual decision to buy a game is such an arbitrary one in the first place.
Audioboxer
Member
That's correct. You're completely in your right to boycott based off of accusations, but as I said above some people will quote some of the posts that infer "boycotting due to ND covering up sexual harassment". We aren't quite at that level of factual confirmation as of yet, in regards to the studio being complicit in covering up abuse. Their public claim so far is they had nothing on record and were not aware of any sexual harassment/abuse. People who just want to defend their favourite studio will of course jump on that, but as will people currently being pragmatic as at this stage of known certainties there isn't evidence for a cover-up. If that changes people with a moral compass will realign whilst I'm sure those only wanting to defend their favourite studio would still try and find a way.
I don't disagree with any of that, all of this hinges on how ND respond to everything, including any unfoldings still to come. Even when we're at those stages, people will make personal decisions on how to react no matter how ND is reacting. At this stage, though, there is still little to go on, so as I said above some posters will try and question others stating there is a coverup.
Jasons post shows how he is try to do investigatory work based upon facts, or at least with a concern in mind for how he will report things ~ http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=252263459#post252263459
The second part of your point here is true, but there are still subjective aspects to this (and every other) situation. Naughty Dog could fire somebody next week and move on, but there might still be someone who isn't happy with how they handled the situation initially who chooses to not buy their games. Somebody might think everything they do in handling the situation is perfect but still decides (either consciously or subconsciously) to stay away from their games just because their is an association in their mind and they would rather not be thinking about sexual harassment while partaking in their preferred form of escapism. Naughty Dog could completely fumble this whole thing in the eyes of most people, and there will still be people who decide either that they don't care or that they do care but there is a personal, cultural, professional, or any other reason to play their games that they are able to ignore this. Or maybe this makes someone think more about crunch culture and the psychological effects it has on people (something they've always knew about in the back of their minds but were able to ignore until now), and it puts them off playing Naughty Dog games.
You're right that it's premature to assume some sort of grand conspiracy, but the way people react to a situation is always subjective and individualized, no matter how objective the facts of the situation are.
gamerMan
Member
From the comment posted on Kotaku, it might be a cultural problem. While it remains to be seen whether to story checks out, there is another case where HR sweeped another complaint under the rug, They choose to terminate the employee.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
crossposted from the other ND thread, but it seems others are coming out with their stories as well.
Yikes... No doubt this dev thought he was "just making a joke, chill out", right? Ugh.
It's possible that there's only one shithead among a company of generally decent people. I hope this is the case. But right now it's not looking good because ND's response has been lukewarm. If they have harassing assholes like this in their group, they need to weed 'em out and fire the shit out of them.
Good point. This is really fucked up.
Thanks for being on top of this, Jason.
Cool to see you ignoring the rest of the post
It's not normal to bring up game sales in a thread about sexual harassment allegations. Get your head on straight.
Didn't see this post yet. No complaints from me. Thanks Jason.
I think it would also be prudent to interview ppl involved internally; lawyers, hr, management, etc. I sound like a trope but the real story is this culture of abetting shit like this. As more come out to tell their stories we really need to get at the material and structural things in place that silenced them.
Ty jason for attempting to get at the story and not posting immediately for clicks, that means a lot
Ty jason for attempting to get at the story and not posting immediately for clicks, that means a lot
The fuck? Read the fucking context. I don't fucking care if someone stops buying any game, I'm just saying that there aren't any proof that Naughty Dog has done anything wrong, and their employees shouldnt pay for what a couple of guys have done.
You're mental if you think I care about The Last Of Us sales
Seriously
Thank you for the reporting and for taking the time to write this. I've spoken about the way you've reported this negatively and I feel like information you've given in this post should have been in the article (people being close to Ballard) to avoid misunderstandings. Nonetheless I apologize.
Now with the reporter tweet plus the extra source that Jason is interviewing sometime soon I feel like ND should come out and say it's looking into all these claims. I also agree with some people here that while the behavior of the employees defines part of the image of the company a few sad human beings shouldn't destroy NDs reputation.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I dont feel they were lukewarm at all - straight up dismissive, and didnt even promise to look further into it. Very shitty statement that they made.
Please stop talking about the sales then!
Gentleman Jack
Member
Your priorities are still whack. If the problem is so big that a third of the company loses their jobs then the whole company deserves to go out of business for being so fundamentally immersed in a culture of harassment. If the problem is in fact isolated to a few personnel then you're grossly overselling the impact of a few internet people saying they'll stop buying ND games.
Ever worked on a team before? If one person misses a deadline, everyone pays for it. Even if they miss for a reasonable reason like they got sick for a week and nobody was able to cover for them, everyone still pays for it.
Hell, let's be less abstract here. If one person on a game makes a unilateral creative decision and that decision turns off potential buyers, everyone pays for it.
So yeah, if one person at Naughty Dog sexually harassed people, the company as a whole might end up paying for it (although probably not that much). That's just how the world works.
ShemhazaiX
Member
I know people who work at Mcdonalds with managers that sexually harass the staff but nothing is done about it. You gonna stop eating there now?
Great, we agree, that's exactly what I posted here earlier, that 99% won't ever see this news, and that's a shame, because everyone should know about this terrible behavior. That's exactly what I have been saying in every single thread of this subject.
benicillin
Banned
Wow, this is incredibly disheartening. I'm really, sincerely hoping that ND is doing their due diligence to investigate this stuff seriously. I would hate to think that their studio culture is failing to address these behaviors and concerns. Everyone who works there (or interacts with people who work there) should feel safe.
This isn't the way the professional world works. If someone on my team doesn't get something done on time we all pay for one person's screw-up. If someone in a famous company is involved a very public case of sexual harassment it will inevitably reflect on the entire company for sheltering a predator, sometimes through no fault of their own. You seem very naive.
i would stop eating at that mcdonalds specifically, yes
Yearsoflurking
Member
I'm sure he would stop eating at that McDonald's
You shouldn't be eating McDonalds anyway but I probably wouldn't go there, yeah. Pretty simple.
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