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Kotaku: Former and current ND employees about the allegations

BibiMaghoo

BibiMaghoo

Member
I've worked in companies larger than ND, and have seen people fired for less than a hostile email. There was one guy who sent what he thought was an amusing email to coworkers, but copied in one of our customers groups. They did not find it remotely funny, and he was dismissed the same day, even though there was no ill will in the contents. I've even seen a person take a 'if you can't be bothered to do this right you may as well leave' pep talk as being fired, and grab their shit and leave to astonished onlookers. I've personally had a disciplinary hearing for being less than 120 seconds late for my shift because the company was contractually obligated to have me at my post on time.

There are a lot of reasons why companies dismiss people, and sometimes they can be for the most trivial shit from an outside perspective. This guy could easily in my mind have been dismissed because of that hostile email, and nothing to do with any other issue. I can't say if that was the reason, but it is not at all unlikely.
 
R

Rejam

Neo Member
ScientificPizza said:
so it’s either sexual abuse, the result of exploitative and demanding working conditions, or both
Click to expand...

Yes, those are the only possibilities in the world!

I'll continue to hold off from making any judgements with so little information.
Surprising to see so many people eager to take a stance on this with nothing to go on.
 
M

mrlion

Member
This is my take on it.

I understand that people jump into accusations quickly and I get it, because harassment is nothing funny, its a pretty serious thing and I do not condone such behavior in any way, shape, or form. However, I encourage people to see and seek the facts before accusing.

I say this because my friend has been wrongfully accused of sexual harassment and everyone knows he didn't do it. However, his life has never been the same since because he has to live with that stigma that there was a time in which he was accused of it, even if he was innocent.

Thus, my view of rape and sexual harassment accusations have changed a bit. Its ok to be skeptical, its not disrespectful nor it makes you a sympathizer. Because it could well be that the victim is telling the truth and about 90% of the time he or she is. But there's always two sides of the story.

That's my take, agree or disagree.
 
K

kliklik

Banned
Sad Affleck said:
So this is your conclusion. What about the second person who responded to Ballard's tweets saying he or she was harassed by a Naughty Dog employee who now works at Niantic?
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I don't think those two were harassed by the same person. For one, because the person who responded was a woman, two, because she was harassed there "back in the day", and three, because when I search for who was at Naughty Dog and Niantic it says he left ND in 2008.

I'm interested in what the Kotaku commenter who claims he was also sexually harassed has to say. But unless they name names – at least in private to Schreier so he can confirm it's the same person – then further accusations don't actually lend weight to the original claim.
 
S

stryke

Member
jschreier said:
I am in touch with someone who posted in Kotaku's comments claiming that he too was sexually harassed at Naughty Dog.
Click to expand...

I wonder how this one will turn out, because the commenter used the word assault which is a more serious offense (legally though, not to dismiss what has allegedly happened with Ballard).
 
J

Justified

Member
mrlion said:
This is my take on it.

I understand that people jump into accusations quickly and I get it, because harassment is nothing funny, its a pretty serious thing and I do not condone such behavior in any way, shape, or form. However, I encourage people to see and seek the facts before accusing.

I say this because my friend has been wrongfully accused of sexual harassment and everyone knows he didn't do it. However, his life has never been the same since because he has to live with that stigma that there was a time in which he was accused of it, even if he was innocent.

Thus, my view of rape and sexual harassment accusations have changed a bit. Its ok to be skeptical, its not disrespectful nor it makes you a sympathizer. Because it could well be that the victim is telling the truth and about 90% of the time he or she is. But there's always two sides of the story.

That's my take, agree or disagree.
Click to expand...

I actually been in this situation when I was in the Army.

There was this Female soldier who had all kinds of issue, mentally unstable was one. She was in love with one of my friends, but he didnt feel the same way. A year later when I was at another duty station I got pull in to CID, because she accused me of rape.

Once the process was over and it was clear she was making it up, she finally admitted that she just wanted to get back at my friend, but didnt want to accuse him, because she loved him. (The rape was a made up story)

I was livid, but I know from first hand that people use this tactic as some sort of revenge.

Not saying this happen here, but the situation, base of the few facts we have are almost similar.
 
S

silver moose

Member
Perhaps we can all take a breath and step back from this issue for a moment?

There are details we do not know, nor will we probably ever know, regarding this issue.

The details Jason put in the article are relevant to the case as they do provide some, but not all, additional detail.

I feel for Ballard. I can't imagine the strength it takes for somebody to come forward with this kind of thing with those close to them, let alone the internet via a public platform.

Both sides could very well be telling the truth, or what they believe to be the truth, with no ill intent or hidden agenda.
I can't discount Ballard's claim at all and given the timing it's not unreasonable for him to see the result of his complaint as termination and payout as hush money.
However, on the flip side, ND could have well intended to fire him for the email or other details we do not know, and the timing of said termination was incredibly unfortunate and the payout is simply severance pay.

It's a perfect storm of possibilities that, when looked at from one side or another, can look poorly for the parties involved.

The sad truth is we will probably never be privy to the information required to really form an accurate opinion on this.
 
K

kliklik

Banned
Justified said:
Once the process was over and it was clear she was making it up, she finally admitted that she just wanted to get back at my friend, but didnt want to accuse him, because she loved him. (The rape was a made up story)

I was livid, but I know from first hand that people use this tactic as some sort of revenge.
Click to expand...

I've seen this in court, women using a rape or abuse accusation against a former partner to try to get custody of the kids. It was very easy to disprove though. Unfortunately, mental health issues seem to be a common factor.

I would still be more conservative in my estimate than mrlion was. I'd say the false accusation rate is extremely low, ~4%. Most of the time, if the accused is actually innocent, it's merely a case of mistaken identity rather than making the whole thing up. I remember seeing something on the news about a man exonerated years after conviction for raping a woman in the apartment laundry room. It turns out that a serial rapist had been recently been released from jail and was living in that same apartment building as the victim. He was never interviewed. The uncanny thing is that both the serial rapist and the wrongfully convicted man looked nearly identical, especially since their bushy beards covered up a lot of their features. She actually HAD been raped, and her description of what the rapist looked like was very accurate. It's just that the police led a faulty investigation that resulted in an innocent man being convicted while his doppelganger, a known serial rapist, walked free.

Point being, I try to believe both sides are telling their truth for as long as I can.
 
K

Kaako

Felium Defensor
jschreier said:
Couple things:

1) People I spoke with knew Ballard well. I can't get into specifics because I don't want anyone to be identifiable, but I spoke with people who were close to him, not strangers from across the office.

2) While I always appreciate feedback, folks here need to understand that my job as a reporter is to get information and try to tell the whole story, not to pick a side. It's also my job to help use truth against power, and I really hope Ballard chooses to talk more because this story isn't completely told yet, but in this case I felt it was important to hear reactions from people who worked with him. I wanted to help unfold more of the story rather than copy-pasting some tweets and calling it a day.

(The posts about "clicks" are particularly laughable, and ignorant, because we would have gotten the highest number of clicks if we had leaped on the news immediately instead of taking the time to do reporting.)

I should also note that I chose not to report some of the things I heard about Ballard, either because they were not relevant or because I couldn't corroborate them with at least two people (which is generally my standard for reporting anything sensitive).

Anyway, this isn't over yet. I already have another interview set up with someone who knows more about what went down, and I am in touch with someone who posted in Kotaku's comments claiming that he too was sexually harassed at Naughty Dog. I will continue reporting and following this story, no matter which direction(s) it leads. And I will continue to be as sympathetic as possible to Ballard, as I would to anyone who alleged that horrible things happened to them.
Click to expand...
Thank you for putting in that much needed great work. Especially useful in today's climate where everyone has already made up their mind before knowing a single fact about the situation at hand.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
I'm totally a believer that the sexual harassment occurred. I just find the insinuation that Ballard was fired on the basis of his reporting his harassment to HR to be dubious.

Not least because new details here provide an alternative basis for his being made redundant, but also, the fact that he was let go the following day after the call, calls into doubt the impact of the content of his call with HR on his dismissal. It was just too quick, suggesting somewhat that the decision had already been made.

I struggle to believe that an organisation would immediately dismiss an employee for making a harassment claim, if anything, for fear of exposing said organisation to liability of a lawsuit on the grounds of unfair dismissal in the event the dismissed employee actually has proof of their harassment.

If you're the type of shitty company who would want to cover up a harassment claim, then the first thing you would do, surly, would be to establish what evidence of the claim exists?

This just sounds like an extremely regrettable and sad situation to me. And the fact that (assuming ND's statement is true) no formal complaint was made before the victim was let go, meaning no formal internal investigation would be forthcoming (assumption) implies that the perpetrator of the harassment is likely to get off scott-free... it's almost the worst possible situation.

Unless current ND staffers who have also been harassed come forwards, I suspect the asshole who did this won't ever see his comeuppance.
 
F

Feorax

Member
I'm glad the discussion of this matter is a bit more level headed than it has been over the last couple of days, even if we've had a couple of nutcases showing up. The recent discussion has been incredibly black and white considering how nuanced the majority of cases like this are, and it's been incredibly frustrating.

Jason has done some excellent work here, and it's been embarrassing to see people lose their shit over it because the results of his journalistic investigation weren't exactly what they expected (hoped?) them to be. At the same time, literally no-one involved has entirely discounted David's claims, including Sony/ND, so there's absolutely no reason for anyone here to do so either.

We might not, and are likely not to if I'm honest, ever get a definitive conclusion on this, and quite frankly if we don't that's fine. We are not entitled to any information, this is a private matter for David and any other people personally involved. Sometimes it's ok not to know either way, because for the most part it's not that simple even for the people directly involved. It doesn't help to throw out conspiracy theories or attack people who have investigated the matter, just because you haven't gotten the result you wanted. At the end of the day, this isn't about any of us. Our opinion means fuck all.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The_Lump said:
Kotaku: "Hot off the press, here's some inconsequential information for you to jump to conclusions from!".

Maybe they should keep quiet about it until an investigation can conclude by people who know what the shit they are talking about when it comes to abuse claims.



Exactly, it 'speaks to' establish a narrative against his credibility. Gaming journalists really have no business assessing an abuse claim, and neither do we (as gamers). This opportunistic article is disgusting.
Click to expand...

It's actually not disgusting. It's not like Ballard had to make his claims publically. Once he does that, he's open for the media to discuss and report about.
 
B

BiggNife

Member
The_Lump said:
Kotaku: "Hot off the press, here's some inconsequential information for you to jump to conclusions from!".

Maybe they should keep quiet about it until an investigation can conclude by people who know what the shit they are talking about when it comes to abuse claims.
Click to expand...

Jason is just doing his job and reporting what he found. The fact that people who were close with Ballard did not know about the abuse is not inconsequential. It's not like he did some shit for clickbait, this information was new and corroborated.

I'm not sure why you're attacking a journalist for doing journalism.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
BiggNife said:
Jason is just doing his job and reporting what he found. The fact that people who were close with Ballard did not know about the abuse is not inconsequential. It's not like he did some shit for clickbait, this information was new and corroborated.

I'm not sure why you're attacking a journalist for doing journalism.
Click to expand...

Because some people only want there to be one side to stories like this, instead of having a conversation about these situations. Jason did great work here.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
crossposted from the other ND thread, but it seems others are coming out with their stories as well.

hJTk23v.png
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Kaako said:
I hope Megan is in contact with Jason to name them and drag them out. This type of disgusting behavior is never ok.
Click to expand...

Better to always check with a lawyer before naming names. I understand with allegations the internet instantly wants a name, but a person if they publicly levy an accusation by name is then legally responsible for that accusation.

It's like a Schrodinger's cat situation around guilt. The person you out publicly is both guilty and not guilty, until there is conclusive evidence. If you fail at conclusive evidence you might end up liable for defamation/loss of earnings/mental or physical pain from the people online who harass/pile on the person you publicly outed.

This is an explanation for why instant naming and shaming as the internet likes to call it is not always a thing. It's different when there can be screencaps of emails/Twitter DMs or some sort of paper trail/hard visual evidence. Without hard evidence you can fall down to hearsay, or as it's often put my word vs their word. That's not great legal standing which makes things challenging at times.
 
C

casey_contra

Member
Hero said:
Where there's smoke, there's firings.
Click to expand...

FTFY

I'm hoping that if there was something submitted to HR and also a document regarding the 20k they can get this sorted out.

I'm trying to stay unbiased until there are more facts. I also want to make sure I keep in mind the actions of 1 dumb person, which is largely uncontrollable vs. a culture that encourages, enables and covers up behavior like this. A much bigger deal.
 
A

Alo0oy

Banned
There are already MRA-type conspiracy theories in this thread I see.

Just because there are additional details doesn't mean the victim made up the story, your personal anecdote of "fake victims" are irrelevant.
 
R

RSTEIN

Comics, serious business!
Sunnybuns said:
crossposted from the other ND thread, but it seems others are coming out with their stories as well.

hJTk23v.png
Click to expand...

holy hell how does Naughty Dog recover from this? We now have possibly two employees with sexual harassment claims and now documented sexual harassment from a dev to a journalist.
 
L

LinLeigh

Member
Since we are firmly in the false anecdote theory of the three thread, I'll add mine.

I was working somewhere as a young girl and I had the best time. I was one of the youngest there while most of the other women were 50+

You would think if something was going on I would have noticed or at the very least heard whispers.

Nope worked there for 2 years while the manager harassed and assaulted several of the women there.

A few coworkers not knowing really isn't weird at all. In fact it is something I would expect. Most people with significantly less power than weinstein take careful steps not to be caught out.

As a man I can only imagine it being even more likely not to tell your coworkers.
 
R

rochellepaws

Member
After Megan's tweet and the additional claim from the Kotaku comments, I think the picture is becoming quite clear on the attitudes and environment from within Naughty Dog.
 
D

Deleted member 47027

Unconfirmed Member
Ombala said:
Well it's possibly one rotten apple.
Click to expand...

It's systemic, everywhere. Expect more at many other companies, too. This shit-ass behavior is ingrained into every aspect of business.
 
F

Fluloco

Member
I honestly can't believe people are blaming Naughty Dog for the Megan tweet. At least Ballard's story happened within the company, this one could have happened at a party or in the middle of the subway, there's no context here.

If you really think Naughty Dog (or any company) actually promotes this kind of behavior you're nuts. Bad people can be found EVERYWHERE.
 
P

Pastry

Banned
Fluloco said:
I honestly can't believe people are blaming Naughty Dog for the Megan tweet. At least Ballard's story happened within the company, this one could have happened at a party or in the middle of the subway, there's no context here.

If you really think Naughty Dog (or any company) actually promotes this kind of behavior you're nuts. Bad people can be found EVERYWHERE.
Click to expand...

Yeah that’s the issue here. This shit is happening at companies across the country in every industry. At the moment ND is being focused on but there is no way that other studios don’t have similar problems. Sexual harassment and assault has been happening on a large scale for such a long time that there are probably few companies that are 100% clear from it. The issue should focus on how the organization responds to allegations. The floodgates opened for ND, I would be curious if we start hearing about other devs also.
 
A

Alo0oy

Banned
Fluloco said:
I honestly can't believe people are blaming Naughty Dog for the Megan tweet. At least Ballard's story happened within the company, this one could have happened at a party or in the middle of the subway, there's no context here.

If you really think Naughty Dog (or any company) actually promotes this kind of behavior you're nuts. Bad people can be found EVERYWHERE.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but you can still blame them for the way they handled the allegations, that crappy statement was on their official website.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Thorrgal said:
People is saying that they don't name names because they could be sued, but can't the companies sue them too?
Click to expand...

Companies are less likely to litigate than individuals, especially over hearsay if hard evidence cannot be shown. They'll simply go to PR to announce their findings like ND originally have.

Naming an individual publicly can bring about them going after you personally if they suffer financial loss/have their career in smoke or have lots of angry people constantly bombarding them with comments/mail/etc.

Hence why in these situations if and when you make accusations public, you should seek advice from a lawyer first or shortly after. This isn't victim blaming, it's simply being smart in the world we live in to protect yourself. "Anonymously" going to journalists can be a route, but you still need to be careful at names publicly getting out there if there is no hard evidence to backup your accusations.
 
F

Fluloco

Member
Pastry said:
Yeah that’s the issue here. This shit is happening at companies across the country in every industry. At the moment ND is being focused on but there is no way that other studios don’t have similar problems. Sexual harassment and assault has been happening on a large scale for such a long time that there are probably few companies that are 100% clear from it. The issue should focus on how the organization responds to allegations. The floodgates opened for ND, I would be curious if we start hearing about other devs also.
Click to expand...

My point is that Naughty Dog, as a company that has close of 300 employees, can't be responsible of what an employee says to a reporter in God knows what context.

I condemn the statement from yesterday, even if Ballard's story may end up being a lie, but this last case is more "Dude who works on X harrased a girl, let's blame X instead of the dude". You can change X with Naughty Dog, EA, Verizon, the store a couple of blocks down the street, whatever. The culprit is the dude, and they are the ones that should be persecuted.

Of course, if you prove me that within the Naughty Dog team, they promote this kind of behavior in any way, that's another whole story, and then I would blaim Naughty Dog.
 
A

Alo0oy

Banned
Fluloco said:
My point is that Naughty Dog, as a company that has close of 300 employees, can't be responsible of what an employee says to a reporter in God knows what context.

I condemn the statement from yesterday, even if Ballard's story may end up being a lie, but this last case is more "Dude who works on X harrased a girl, let's blame X instead of the dude". You can change X with Naughty Dog, EA, Verizon, the store a couple of blocks down the street, whatever. The culprit is the dude.
Click to expand...

Show me a person that blamed all 300 people that work at ND.
 
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