I really wonder what happened to ppl that they think this way
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Kotaku: Former and current ND employees about the allegations
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
I really wonder what happened to ppl that they think this way
Cornbread78
Member
Working in big office for as long as I have, there is NO WAY I would judge either way without proof or concrete details of the situation, which nobody may see/hear until court.
There are definitely some scum bags out there in positions of power trying to prey on people, but there are also definitely some scumbags out there trying to get back at others, trying to make money or trying to justify for their own actions by going after others with this type of claim.
Either way it is of a very sensitive and delicate nature and people should be very careful with their words.....
This is why documentation of employee incidents as a manager is so damn important to make sure all parties know what actions were taken and why..
There are definitely some scum bags out there in positions of power trying to prey on people, but there are also definitely some scumbags out there trying to get back at others, trying to make money or trying to justify for their own actions by going after others with this type of claim.
Either way it is of a very sensitive and delicate nature and people should be very careful with their words.....
This is why documentation of employee incidents as a manager is so damn important to make sure all parties know what actions were taken and why..
CannonFodder52
Member
Yea, pretty much.
Regardless of this situation, not eating at McDonalds, (if possible) is also the right call.
Audioboxer
Member
Comparing a massive fast food chain to an individual games developer isn't really like for like. On this note, people often pick and choose boycotts. I mean, Apple has a history of sourcing manufacturing of the iPhone to places where employees commit suicide due to working conditions? Some of the clothing manufacturers you enjoy get their clothes made for cheap labour, maybe even child labour in certain parts of the world? Your favourite games companies, let alone Apple/Google/Amazon and others all tax avoid which puts a financial strain on the economies they take billions in profits from?
This is an individual games developer, and boycotting buying games from them is also arguably "easier" to do that avoiding having a mobile phone, buying clothes and choosing where you eat if you maybe have kids/are in a rush.
I think that much should be obvious, as my posts earlier weren't downplaying boycotting ND. Simply that basing that on accusations of a coverup at this point was a little far ahead of where we factually stand.
Documentation is great but let's not get it twisted, it's there to benefit the company. This can range from a bunch of things, including rightful termination of a sexual abuser/harasser (lawsuits be bad), but it's use is not to benefit the victim, tho it might align sometimes.
I wouldn't eat there. :/
Sad Affleck
Member
crossposted from the other ND thread, but it seems others are coming out with their stories as well.
There we go. We need a couple more people to come out with their stories and maybe then some people will have to face reality.
Chris_Rivera
Member
I hope they were all reported to a proper person in the inc. Otherwise, its going to be tough to connect the dots into a ND problem. There is no company immune to harassment, but if you dont report it, they cant take action. We need evidence of it being reported and ignored, before it can be a ND problem.
Maxwell House
Member
I've noticed that people tend to try to dismiss claims like this one, it's sad. It's possible Ballard is making it up but I tend to believe the claim until disproven. I don't see how this would be a fun thing for someone to just make up.
Yeah I wouldn't eat at that McDonald's.
Hoping more comes out so that Naughty Dog can become a better studio that treats its employees better. And the perpetrators of any harassment or abuse are punished. Based on Jason's reporting and little bits I've heard from a couple of ex-ND employees myself, the work culture there is... not *bad* but questionable. The crunch stuff aside.
For me, here's the difference between Naughty Dog and a large company like McDonald's:
Naughty Dog creates art. Art is an expression of the inner self. Art, even if made by a team of 300, is a craft, it's about about joy, beauty, fun, creativity, pushing boundaries, social commentary, etc.
If many people that are part of that endeavor are sad, despicable human beings that abuse their authority to prey on victims, then that taints the entire artistic pursuit. It turns something that is supposed to be beautiful into something disgusting and vile. Could you enjoy a Polanski movie? What about a Woody Allen movie? Cosby show? I couldn't. Because I know it's made by depraved individuals.
Then you'll say, well, it's a just a few people out of hundreds! No. These are the dvelopers. This is not some junior guy making a comment to a journalist. These are the developers that set the tone, the culture, and lead the entire artistic pursuit. Their hands are deep into the clay.
But you can propably see why it's a good thing the justice system doesn't work that way, right?
panama chief
Member
Ballard shouldve said "sure I'll sign that letter", then take it and tell the world. I hope he has some kind of evidence or paper trail.
That's ridiculous. It doesn't have to be fun. Look at the women who cry rape and put innocent men in jail.
That's ridiculous. It doesn't have to be fun. Look at the women who cry rape and put innocent men in jail.
Audioboxer
Member
Well, you do at this stage need to be honest and accept you, nor us, have a single clue who the accused are. You can't just go around with speculation it might be the CEOs or lead developers or something.
Speculating who it is, is as useful as currently saying there is a mass cover up inside ND. There is not enough evidence for such speculation, and while you're free to say it's what you think, just remember it's always best to try and be as patient as possible for investigatory work/evidence.
Sad Affleck
Member
The justice system has to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone because putting an innocent man in jail is rightly considered worse than letting a guilty man go free. This isn't a court of law, the accused is still unnamed and the victim has a lot more to lose than the vague Naughty Dog entity. An accusation like that deserves serious investigation, especially now that other people have shared similar experiences.
autoduelist
Member
It was almost certainly a standard severance contract, which almost always includes wording that you don't discuss your termination or why you left [including other things, such as non-disparage, sometimes an NDA about your work, an agreement that all work down is now theirs, sometimes a non-compete, etc]. It's meaningless because it's absolutely commonplace. I've left more than one company, and gotten similar amounts, simply because I was a good worker and we left on good terms. But they give you that severance, have you sign away future claims, because it's just how business is done. They don't want me coming back later and suing them for breach of contract or whatever, even though there was zero ill will at all. Just like, nowadays, many companies escort someone out of the office immediately if fired... it's not that they don't trust John and think he's going to lash out, it's just what is done.
Him getting that severance package really doesn't mean what you think it means, and certainly doesn't prove anything. I can't point at the various checks I've gotten and say, 'see, they paid me to be silent!'. The best analogy I can think of, which I posted in another thread, is these packages are a nice, safe, way for both parties to 'close the door on the way out'... employee has a nest egg, company can close the books and not worry about some random lawsuit. It's done even if employees leave on great terms, and one being offered does not mean it's 'hush money'.
Sure, severance can be used against people - my father was forced between signing one for a 'decent' payout in exchange for never suing for half the pension they stole from him [they changed pension deals, vacation payout deals, and other policy 6 months before closing down his regional office and laying everyone off]. They used it like a weapon - if he didn't sign, he didn't get a nest egg and would have to engage in legal battle to possibly regain half his pension. He choose to take the payout because his fellow employees did, and he was the sole holdout. That happens. But in and of itself, a severance package is not evidence one way or the other that anything untowards happened. As mentioned, both significant checks I've received were more of a 'thank you!' than a slap in the face.
They are also normal in cases where someone is fired 'with cause'. You pay them $x just to end it, so you don't have to hear from them anymore or worry about them defaming your company later. Basically, my point is, Sony's offer is SOP in pretty much every situation. It would be offered regardless of the terms for which he left, and who did or didn't do what.
Yes, I know.
I'm not speculating beyond what Ballard and the journalist said--senior/mid level employees. The journalist said a "dev" made the inappropriate remark and Ballard's comment was that a "lead" harassed him. However, I just edited my comment to "dev" instead of "leaders" (although I would personally consider a dev/lead to be a leader within the company, but I understand what you're saying).
You're 100% right about proof. We don't have any facts yet. We have a firm denial by Naughty Dog and now 3 complaints. That's where we stand.
Audioboxer
Member
Okay, fair enough. I just think it's wise not to summarise an accusation must mean a certainty of being assigned to a person in position X. That just encourages some to go after direct targets. Obviously, many of those higher up at ND have public accounts, and while I'm sure they expect tweets like those below at this moment in time, it's still best not to get too direct for now. Stating Druckmann is specifically complicit in/responsible for rape culture is not exactly founded just quite yet.
Oh boy.
The corroboration doesn't yet prove a pattern or a culture of harassment at ND but it does show that this behavior went on in isolated incidents that were either unnoticed or ignored. These things do not make on-the-ground employees complicit but it would look poorly on ND management and Sony for basically being blind to all this going on.
Hopefully the 3 stories that we know about already can give other potential victims the courage to share their stories and go from there.
Hopefully the 3 stories that we know about already can give other potential victims the courage to share their stories and go from there.
Okay, fair enough. I just think it's wise not to summarise an accusation must mean a certainty of being assigned to a person in position X. That just encourages some to go after direct targets. Obviously, many of those higher up at ND have public accounts, and while I'm sure they expect tweets like those below at this moment in time, it's still best not to get too direct for now. Stating Druckmann is specifically complicit in/responsible for rape culture is not exactly founded just quite yet.
Mildshock.gif
I never stated such as thing--perhaps you're thinking of a different poster?
You know usually people don't know when sexual harrasement happen or rape even if it happen for example in a school?... That's why it's hard for some victims to come out to tell their stories because they're no witnesses to back them up so they're alone. You should check on twitter #MeToo it wil tell you a lot about sexual harassement.
Chris_Rivera
Member
Stating Druckmann is specifically complicit in/responsible for rape culture is not exactly founded just quite yet.
Hes clearly egging him on to say something, total playground bs. At least have some understanding of how the corporate world works.
Audioboxer
Member
Sorry, I know you didn't. I was just trying to back up my feelings that it's best not to try and speculate who it is. As I said I fully expect Neil and others high up at ND with public Twitter accounts will be expecting people to be saying things, and being emotional, but for now everyone needs to remember they're people too and as of this moment, we don't have enough evidence for who to publicly go after.
There's also plenty of shitty victim blaming on Twitter as well and "they're just doing it for money ND". All in I simply wish people would stop posting dumb shit on twitter, or at least remember when they @ someone, an actual person will be reading it.
It's Twitter. If you want actually good discourse you should read a different website, preferably not a social media one.
Why this obsession with druckmann ?Okay, fair enough. I just think it's wise not to summarise an accusation must mean a certainty of being assigned to a person in position X. That just encourages some to go after direct targets. Obviously, many of those higher up at ND have public accounts, and while I'm sure they expect tweets like those below at this moment in time, it's still best not to get too direct for now. Stating Druckmann is specifically complicit in/responsible for rape culture is not exactly founded just quite yet.
He's not the president of ND ?!
Audioboxer
Member
I don't disagree, I'm just sharing how the public is directly interfacing with the higher-ups at ND.
Largely known as a figurehead of ND. It makes sense for people to go to him on social media, but as always in horrible situations like this, some people need to remember to use their brains before hitting the send tweet button.
I'd say if you think you have information or something useful to say you'd be better talking to Jason or someone else in the industry, rather than tweeting it at ND/Druckmann/etc. From a purely business POV, they'll all be on comment lockdown at the moment anyway. This is now a legal matter. Your tweets won't be responded to and don't expect them to be, for now.
Brotherhood93
Member
Those tweets to Druckmann just show why people shouldn't be quick to judge what went on with very little knowledge publicly known. It's so odd to me that people are so quick to choose a side when it's possible to be supportive of both in the hope of a resolution in the best interests of everyone involved is possible. The nature of Ballard's claims have seen people attacking Naughty Dog and there's an attitude of "oh, it's okay as they're just a faceless company" forgetting that company is staffed by individuals who may very well be completely innocent now being labelled, whether directly or indirectly, as complicit in sexual harassment and encouraging that culture.
Of course it should go without saying that anybody attacking or throwing accusations at Ballard in a similar way is just as bad if not worse. This must be a difficult situation for many right now, hopefully the culprit(s) is outed and blacklisted from the industry and more is done to prevent future incidents occurring but let's not make assumptions about people's guilt. I don't think it does anybody any good.
Of course it should go without saying that anybody attacking or throwing accusations at Ballard in a similar way is just as bad if not worse. This must be a difficult situation for many right now, hopefully the culprit(s) is outed and blacklisted from the industry and more is done to prevent future incidents occurring but let's not make assumptions about people's guilt. I don't think it does anybody any good.
After the recent #metoo tag coming out and shocking people at how prevalent situations like this are, where it became clear most people know people, having no idea they've had such an experience...
... how is it too surprising that his colleagues may have been none the wiser? Seems to me the demonstration of the weekend was that this happens a lot more than most people open up about. Again, with more people coming forward to speak up as well, hopefully some traction gets underway and the claims are given their due diligence.
... how is it too surprising that his colleagues may have been none the wiser? Seems to me the demonstration of the weekend was that this happens a lot more than most people open up about. Again, with more people coming forward to speak up as well, hopefully some traction gets underway and the claims are given their due diligence.
Smh @ ppl who dont want to admit that this type of behavior isnt part and parcel of the industry at large
Ppl always bring up video game jobs as having a fucked up dynamic that takes advantage of ppl going for their "dream job" with below average pay and above average workload but cant understand that this power dynamic extends beyond that
Ppl always bring up video game jobs as having a fucked up dynamic that takes advantage of ppl going for their "dream job" with below average pay and above average workload but cant understand that this power dynamic extends beyond that
Thats a pretty massive exaggeration since these accusations are all of different unnamed individuals.
Harve Weinsten levels? Really?
Jawbreaker
Member
Uh, you might want to look at the Weinstein situation again if you think this is on that level. Not that they both aren't awful, but multiple rape accusations are not on the same level as what's going on here.
get2sammyb
Member
Sigh. Unbelievable.
jellies_two
Member
Turning into Glassdoor posts.
We have four stories of abuse/harassment/mistreatment. Two are from anonymous sources. It speaks to a systemic issue within the company/culture (again, unverified) but not in the same universe as Weinstein (30 years of sexual harassment, abuse, rape).
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Gtfo.
NormalFish
Banned
People actually think there are companies that are somehow immune to a systemic issue that has persisted through all of human civilization lol.
ND definitely has people on their roster who have sexually harassed women. Just like every other company.
ND definitely has people on their roster who have sexually harassed women. Just like every other company.
Baroquemantic
Member
Sony/ND need to sort this bullshit out.
Maybe I'm just reading too much into your post, but saying that they got "high off their own farts" and such seems kind of dismissive. These people have power over others' jobs, and if the company is willing to cover for it - and we already knew that they were notable for their crunch before this so it's hard to vouch for their sympathy for their employees - there is a genuine power dynamic enabling this.
I think brian! said it well:
Speaking of dismissive. I'm sure that the chance increases as the number of employees and age of the companies increase simply due to the greater amount of people under the company's umbrella, but different company cultures can handle it differently.
_Final_Phoenix_
Member
Happy to take all of my complaints in the earlier thread back. I never really remembered any game news publications ever putting in a proper amount of care and attention in stories like this, and I always keep thinking that no one wanted to report on it because they didn't want to piss off Sony or ND. But, at the very least, Kotaku done did right. Fuck me, ha.
NormalFish
Banned
Dismissive of people trying to justify this as a few bad apples, yeah. It's a stupid ahistorical response to this.
Audioboxer
Member
What?
Certainly a bit of an eye-opener that claim. Shouldn't be too hard to fact check either. Someone at ND that Jason is in contact with must know if a receptionist was working on Uncharted 3 at any point for whatever reason. That's not the most important part of those posts, but it stands out due to how noticeable it would be in the building/during development.
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