Muppet of a Man
Member
I liked Tim Wise's commentary on this.
Wow, spot on.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
FT: 'Deaths of despair surge among US white working class
- Thread starter CCS
- Start date
- Status
Wow, spot on.
these people can't see whiteness as a privilege because as far as they're concerned being poor and white has been nothing but a burden. They trust their fellow whites, and then they get robbed blind. but that isn't their responsibility, because that's just they way the world works. the world is mean and you trust people and they abuse you. also black people are evil and white people are good. and again the world is inherently evil.
its almost like they better learn the lesson life is trying to teach them before they go extinct.
Sometimes human beings act in counterintuitive ways that only show up in the numbers as it were.
The relationship between Public health and economics is, I believe, one of those things that is hard to rationalise.
Paracelsus
Member
People to this day fail to understand the future is not in their delusional universal income utopia, the future is a race to the bottom where most people to the west are either moderately poor or just barely make ends meet. The overall worldwide situation will get better, that doesn't mean it'll be good. You no longer will own a car and you will take the bus, you will no longer own a house but you will rent a room with other people, if not outright share a room. You not only won't find a job within your own country, you will have to move to find any job at all (like those "Look at me I left X to become an ice cream maker in New Zealand :smile:" articles). This is already happening, at least in Europe, and that is one of the major reasons why white people are not having kids (no job security means you're playing russian roulette with five bullets if you start a family). They set themselves to a standard of living over the past century they can simply no longer achieve, and it can only get worse, so when they see the lengths they have to go to just scrape by, they don't find it appealing and opt out.
I would love to see the arguments as of why social security/welfare is achievable, when faced with politics in bed with corporations who just want to make money and more money, going "guess what? Fuck you". Civil war? Because I don't remember any major economy issue in the past that wasn't settled without resorting to violence first.
I would love to see the arguments as of why social security/welfare is achievable, when faced with politics in bed with corporations who just want to make money and more money, going "guess what? Fuck you". Civil war? Because I don't remember any major economy issue in the past that wasn't settled without resorting to violence first.
old manatee
Banned
Paracelsus
Member
There is just too much optimism about welfare, and I see no reason as of why that is.
Hey look everyone, the pessimist is pessimistic.
This sort of socio-economic model isn't really sustainable long-term. There will probably come a point where massive social unrest will occur nationwide when people have reached a point of no return.
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic. I wonder why suicide's suddenly important now
That's your own personal ignorance.
Human beings are a lot more complicated than many people on this forum give them credit for. It's fucking draining. Snark accomplishes nothing.
lightskintwin
Banned
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic. I wonder why suicide's suddenly important now
Compared to White men it's not. I pulled up en early 80's New York Times article in another thread with data from the 70's showing the disparity. Honestly they've been trying to figure this out for decades and it appears it's gotten worse.
What has gotten worse? The disparity between them or black suicides?
Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt (2012).
Hedges is always good.
lightskintwin
Banned
The disparity between them but I see they're including overdoses and alcohol illness related deaths in this thread's data so it's quite possible the disparity has remained relavity the same. I'll look over data of the past 3 to 4 decades and note the changes, if any.
Gaius Cassius
Member
There was a Star Trek DS9 episode sorta involving that. One of their time travel episodes set in the 2020s, where eventually the government just grabbed all the blue collar lower class workers and minority workers and forcibly put them in segregated slums and denied them basic rights until a revolt eventually occurred.
Past tense was the episode. I assume something of the sorts will happen someday.
Hey, good to see you mate. Doing good. Glad to see you back around.
Back on topic (and not at you Gordon):
While the Wise quote is nice and all, how does it explain people who acknowledge privilege being included in those statistics? White working class is not a monolith politically (much as it would be simpler if it was). Is it fair to assume every person that committed suicide was blind to their privilege? And what are the next steps if that is the sole reason?
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
^this
chromatic9
Member
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
hipsterpants
Member
If Trump continues to be incompetent and terrible I wonder if things will get worse. WWC voters pinned many of their of hopes and dreams on him.
Aside from the regular culprits (right wing propaganda networks, racism) I think the GOP represents to these people the way America should be (bootstraps, hard work, etc.) rather than the actual reality of their situation. And when you have an inherently conservative mindset it's easier to vote for that than a party that wants to help you with government programs and aid. It's one of the reasons I'm totally on board with the Dems electing more conservative candidates in some areas around the country because they will at minimum be a thousand times better than the GOP.
Aside from the regular culprits (right wing propaganda networks, racism) I think the GOP represents to these people the way America should be (bootstraps, hard work, etc.) rather than the actual reality of their situation. And when you have an inherently conservative mindset it's easier to vote for that than a party that wants to help you with government programs and aid. It's one of the reasons I'm totally on board with the Dems electing more conservative candidates in some areas around the country because they will at minimum be a thousand times better than the GOP.
shinra-bansho
Member
I'm not really sure how humans being complicated affects institutional biases in media.
There wasn't a drug epidemic when it was a black health problem. There was a war on drugs and the solution was incarceration.
The underlying point beneath the snark is that this only achieves attention due to the demographic that's affected.
Which seems relevant since it's an example of the type of privilege that's actually produced the fragility in white people that results in the current response to a changing world and changing place in it.
Free education being available isn't going to solve anything if the mentality of the target audience is that they shouldn't need to do anything to adapt to the changing world. And the target of ire for the change ie minorities are also going to get that education access.
This is a racial issue as much as it's #economicanxiety.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic.
I have. You either haven't read enough headlines over the years or being selective in retaining what you read is more useful to your agenda because you can make remarks like these—there is no complete absence of reporting about black suicide.
That being said, there are clear and legitimate reasons besides privilege that certain headlines could possibly be seen more frequently. Male suicide is cited as a problem or epidemic much more frequently than female suicide is, and do you know why? No, it's not only because we live in a patriarchal society where the lives of men are valued above those of women; it's because males kill themselves much more frequently than females. Same logic applies when white men are killing themselves at a much higher rate than black men.
The word "only" makes the statement false. It also achieves attention because white suicide rates are much higher than black suicide rates; the same primary reason male suicide achieves more attention than female suicide. Our concern over an epidemic is largely based on just how severe that epidemic is, obviously.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:
What? Really?
lightskintwin
Banned
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:
That's actually an interesting theory worth exploring to see if that's had any affect on this.
The USA is a land of keeping up appearances. It makes it easy to escape into fake realities. Celebrity culture, news entertainment, drugs. The country needs grounding. The white privilege angle is a nice narrative, but it can't explain the full history. The American dream has been dead for a very long time, social mobility has been lower than the OECD since at least the nineties, if it was actually ever higher, it's not like people suddenly discovered it.
Fear of the bomb probably.
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
Data like this is always very interesting to analyze. I'm super interested now actually since that poster brought it up but I doubt it significant. Still worth a look.
Neogaf likes to shit on it but it plays a real role in people personal lives...unfortunately even in those who use their religion to be assholes. I'm pretty sure religion acts as a protective factor. For example, it gives people a sense of hope where they otherwise might have none. Hope isn't nothing. Hope does a lot in psychological adjustment. Religion can act as an extra helpful socialization component if you go to church, which can effectively become a support groups (churches typically talk about issues in the community and how to overcome them). Accordingly, churches can become a forum for people where they are more comfortable to talk and religious involvement along with community focus can give people a sense of agency. Agency and control are in part what they are missing without a college education.
shinra-bansho
Member
I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse to the reality that regardless of what a Wikipedia article is titled, black drug addiction was not treated as a health issue in the general US public policy environment, but as a crime issue.
As for the American dream being dead the US citizenry in relatively recent polling still believes overwhelmingly in the idea that hard work and internal factors are the determinant of success.
It could play a part. Atheism after all gives you less handlebars to lash outward and more to internalize. But we're talking about whites with a high school education, I doubt there is a large proliferation of atheism among this group. In addition, it wouldn't explain the lower rates in the much more atheist other countries.Schattenjäger;232668017 said:
LizardKing
Member
Yeah, what? People have talked about the drug/alcohol/suicide epidemic in black communities/inner cities for YEARS. With many types of substances. The point some people are tying to make here doesn't exist. Now true, depending on your political ideology your response may have been to either impose harsher penalties, or try to get drugs off streets. But shit America has been paying quite a bit of attention to it in black communities for at least 30 years.
Depends on who you are. To say it was and is treated one monolithic way by everyone is foolish. You also don't know yet how it will be reacted to with the outbreak in white communities. Are we going to suddenly look at drugs as a health issue instead of a criminal one now that it affects whites more? I highly doubt it.
As an atheist/agnostic is like to see receipts on that as I think that's likely bullshit conjecture.Schattenjäger;232668017 said:
On the report it's sad (I mean really not stupid Trump sad and I'm not letting him own the word) but an expected trend given US position right now and the challenges with healthcare, housing, achieving high earnings and changing job market.
Current administration is only likely to make things worse with regards the demographics already struggling.
I'm not being purposely obtuse, you were talking nomenclature, which was the same then as it is now. No need to call me names when you're wrong. Both were called an epidemic. Of course the solution to the problem is different and racially colored (though in the end the solution still seems to be to vote in a tough guy who promises to crack down on crime, so it's not that different).
Yeah keeping up appearances. But it wasn't true then just as much as it's not true now. Poverty rates have hardly changed in fifty years, so what makes them suddenly no longer to reconcile the cognitive dissonance? A black president? Too recent. A less myopic view due to the internet? Maybe. Methinks it's more to do with superficial entertainment.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
I think what he was trying to say is the mainstream solution to the crack epidemic was incarceration and over policing of urban neighborhoods of whereas the proposed solutions for this opioid epidemic tend to be more therapy and rehab based. Doctors and pharmaceutical created this issue and If it wasn't for the power of those industries lobbies I am pretty sure lawmakers would of gone after those companies to force them to pay for people's rehab.
Also I've had the conversation about why there is this large divide between urban and rural areas residents in life expectancy compared to life reality (with a friend of mine who often debates with me on behalf for the "forgotten" masses in the rural parts of America). My solution is there needs to be some radical alteration of what people moralize as right or wrong if they have any chance of bouncing back. They were indoctrinated in this ideal of the American dream, and White privilege yet both of those things are obsolete. Coal Miners needs to learn how to produce green tech, America should look to be the biggest proponent of the legalizing of weed because it could be a new crop that people grow and export to urban areas for money. (Like tobacco), laws need to be made that tax factories that rely on machinery that the revenue from could be used to create more job training and placement centers across the country. Other laws need to made to require a quota of "human" workers at a factory as well. More outside the box thinking needs to happen politically as well but we're so use to trying to "fast food" our politics into a 2 sided debate we rarely take a step back and see if third or even fourth options exist or even if solutions could actually function on a national level when a more localized version would be the best.
Anyhow none of those things will pass because as others said people rather hold onto the appearance of being "good" and "following tradition" than admit they are fucked up and need a new approach to life.
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
For Germany probably the fact half of it was under soviet control, a country cut in half where half of it was under an oppressive regime.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
I tend to think they are still trying to live to the baby boomer ideals and that is now 3 (going on 4) generations ago. The overall Cognitive dissonance is just too much. All the things you mentioned are just the regular reminders that the world they were raised to see as ideal isn't coming and the people they were taught to idolize are dying off due to old age. Then add in cheap opiods (that are chemically downers) and it's just adding fuel to a already depressing fire. The election of yet another baby boomer to the WH is them trying to make it fit but we're all see how much of a disaster that is becoming.
shinra-bansho
Member
Winner. Ten points.
Why on earth does it matter what a particular individual's response to drug addiction in black communities was then or is now. I'm not referring to what you thought, or he thought or she thought about the problem in the 90s. I'm talking about what the collective public response was, and it was not compassion.
No, it's pretty clear that we're only going to look at certain types of drug addiction in certain geographies with certain demographics as a health issue rather than a criminal one. That's sort of part of the point.
Gun deaths, of which a large proportion are white male suicides, and black male homicide victims, should also be considered a public health issue, but isn't. If it does eventually break through to US public consciousness that it is, well it will only do so for one part of those deaths.
Perhaps, I'm being jaded, but the idea that if "deaths of despair" had shot up recently in black communities, it would still be receiving the attention and the reaction both in public sentiment and policy that opioid addiction in rural communities has received, is pretty naive.
So much of Star Trek (but especially DS9) seems prescient when viewed today. There's an exchange in "Past Tense" which gave me chills when I rewatched it a few months ago:
”It's not your fault things are the way they are." ”Everybody tells themselves that. And nothing ever changes."
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:
afaik higher education seems to have an inverse relationship with religiosity which contradicts your supposition, based on the graphic provided by the OP.
LizardKing
Member
It remains to be seen what the solution will be here. Many people have always advocated for a health based approach with clinics and rehab programs and such to fight drug epidemics in poor and black communities. And that has happened in many places especially on a city/state level. Of course we just voted in idiots so I doubt this will be there solution even with it being in white communities.
Also, you make a ridiculous assumption that this is a result of failed "white privilege" and that people should get with the times and stop following tradition. The implication being that people are depressed about giving "power" to minorities I guess? Isn't it more likely that white working class (and all working class) means a whole lot more of a depressing life than it used to? People used to make a living wage in the working class. Now it means poverty, for everyone. Our wages are becoming more imbalanced by the year. People in the lower class are stressed, poor, depressed and have worse jobs than ever. Maybe it's less about race and more that their lives are just shit now too.
If conservatives start advocating for lessening drug penalties and free rehab once drugs are a "white" community problem I will fully concede your point. I don't see that happening. Liberals on the other hand would generally like to treat it as a health issue even in black communities (liberal states already do). So I meant more your political group than the individual. And that matters. Also to be fair, there was a lot of effort put into anti drug programs (especially in inner cities), cutting off supply and trying to keep them off the streets, not just incarceration. So this flies in the face of "US doesn't care" theory. I do think you are being pretty jaded as these deaths of despair have received quite a bit of attention over the past 30 years in black communities. And my money is on whether black or white issue, your solution to dealing with it is probably formed by if you are liberal or conservative.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
Again I don't have any facts in front of me right now...it was just me thinking aloud
But doesn't Japan have a very high number of atheists? And isn't their suicide rate high?
I know in Christianity that it is taught that suicide is a sin.. also the hope aspect plays a huge role
What makes you think whites with a high school education are not atheists?
I'll try to dig up some things when I get time
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
What makes you think that? Current administration's top goal is jobs... you get people jobs.. you give them structure and security which may help when it comes to reducing the suicide rate
Now before anyone lashes out and calls me a Trump supporter.. all im saying is that is one of his priorities .. not sure how much success he will have
Only time will tell
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
That's a valid point but these surveys are never totally accurate
There are a let of variables
waveuponwave
Member
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
For Germany probably the GDR crashing and burning, leaving huge parts of Eastern Germany economically devastated in the 90s because the industry there just wasn't comperitive in a unified market and not a lot of effort was made to save it
shinra-bansho
Member
CARA and the 21st Century Cares Act, with it's $1 billion towards the opioid addiction problem received broad bipartisan support in both the GOP controlled House and Senate.
- Status