Muppet of a Man
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I liked Tim Wise's commentary on this.
Wow, spot on.
I liked Tim Wise's commentary on this.
When anyone non-white tries to explain this they call us racist, and even when someone like Tim White says it they still feel itchy.
This problem will never get better until people admit some things.
I liked Tim Wise's commentary on this.
I am pretty suspicious at the attempt to draw a public health problem into the broader narrative about the economic decline of blue collar America. It's not that they are not connected at their root, but the recent surge in heroin isn't coming from a recent collapse in economic fortunes, it's coming from the public health side. And I think it's probably better if politicians don't think that miracle plans to bring back da jobs will solve the public health side.
People to this day fail to understand the future is not in their delusional universal income utopia, the future is a race to the bottom where most people to the west are either moderately poor or just barely make ends meet. The overall worldwide situation will get better, that doesn't mean it'll be good. You no longer will own a car and you will take the bus, you will no longer own a house but you will rent a room with other people, if not outright share a room. You not only won't find a job within your own country, you will have to move to find any job at all (like those "Look at me I left X to become an ice cream maker in New Zealand :smile:" articles). This is already happening, at least in Europe, and that is one of the major reasons why white people are not having kids (no job security means you're playing russian roulette with five bullets if you start a family). They set themselves to a standard of living over the past century they can simply no longer achieve, and it can only get worse, so when they see the lengths they have to go to just scrape by, they don't find it appealing and opt out.
I would love to see the arguments as of why social security/welfare is achievable, when faced with politics in bed with corporations who just want to make money and more money, going "guess what? Fuck you". Civil war? Because I don't remember any major economy issue in the past that wasn't settled without resorting to violence first.
Are you going to throw the trashcan, or just try to bait someone else into it?
There is just too much optimism about welfare, and I see no reason as of why that is.
People to this day fail to understand the future is not in their delusional universal income utopia, the future is a race to the bottom where most people to the west are either moderately poor or just barely make ends meet. The overall worldwide situation will get better, that doesn't mean it'll be good. You no longer will own a car and you will take the bus, you will no longer own a house but you will rent a room with other people, if not outright share a room. You not only won't find a job within your own country, you will have to move to find any job at all (like those "Look at me I left X to become an ice cream maker in New Zealand :smile:" articles). This is already happening, at least in Europe, and that is one of the major reasons why white people are not having kids (no job security means you're playing russian roulette with five bullets if you start a family). They set themselves to a standard of living over the past century they can simply no longer achieve, and it can only get worse, so when they see the lengths they have to go to just scrape by, they don't find it appealing and opt out.
I would love to see the arguments as of why social security/welfare is achievable, when faced with politics in bed with corporations who just want to make money and more money, going "guess what? Fuck you". Civil war? Because I don't remember any major economy issue in the past that wasn't settled without resorting to violence first.
[ Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt] is, without question, the most profoundly disquieting (and downright shocking) portrait of modern America in recent years, and one that is essential reading for anyone wanting to comprehend the quotidian struggle of what sociologists called the underclass'. To describe the book as Dickensian in its horror-show reports of frontline industrial decrepitude and socio-economic dysfunction is to engage in understatement Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt is unapologetically combative and profoundly J'accuse. And though many a conservative think-tanker could try to punch holes in its arguments no one can remain unmoved or unsettled by its brilliantly documented reportage from the precipice of a society that prefers to turn a blind eye to its nightmarish underside.
The Times (Saturday Review)
Named a Best Book of the Year by Amazon.com and the Washington Post
Three years ago, Pulitzer Prizewinner Chris Hedges and award-winning cartoonist and journalist Joe Sacco set out to take a look at the sacrifice zones, those areas in America that have been offered up for exploitation in the name of profit, progress, and technological advancement. They wanted to show in words and drawings what life looks like in places where the marketplace rules without constraints, where human beings and the natural world are used and then discarded to maximize profit. Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt is the searing account of their travels.
Amazon.com Review
: From the dusty plains of North Dakota to the coal-veined hills of West Virginia to the desolate and ravaged streets of Camden N.J., Pulitzer Prize winner Chris Hedges and award-winning cartoonist/journalist Joe Sacco introduce us to the nation's "sacrifice zones"--those regions where, in the authors' view, corporate greed has run wild, and the locals have suffered. A unique mashup of investigative journalism, man-on-the-street reportage, graphic novel, and anti-corporate manifesto, the result is a riveting and often chilling account of America's forgotten zones. The balance between Hedges' narrative nonfiction storytelling and Sacco's intimate and very human sketches is surprisingly effective. And the stark depictions (both written and visual) of abandoned coal mines and empty downtowns and crumbling houses are heartbreaking, as are the stories of people struggling to survive. This is a special and important book. -- Neal Thompson
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic. I wonder why suicide's suddenly important now
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic. I wonder why suicide's suddenly important now
Compared to White men it's not. I pulled up en early 80's New York Times article in another thread with data from the 70's showing the disparity. Honestly they've been trying to figure this out for decades and it appears it's gotten worse.
Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt (2012).
What has gotten worse? The disparity between them or black suicides?
I'm usually not the type of person to say this -- but I believe that it has to get worse before it can get better. I'm convinced that we are on our way to hitting a local minimum sometime in the near future, but we aren't there yet.
Good question.
Better question..how you doing, Man?
Complete lack of affordable education, affordable housing and affordable healthcare
But opioids are affordable.
I'm not really sure how humans being complicated affects institutional biases in media.That's your own personal ignorance.
Human beings are a lot more complicated than many people on this forum give them credit for. It's fucking draining. Snark accomplishes nothing.
Black suicides were also really high (and still are) and I never heard about the Black suicide epidemic.
The underlying point beneath the snark is that this only achieves attention due to the demographic that's affected.
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
Fear of the bomb probably.
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
What? Really?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemicThere wasn't a drug epidemic when it was a black health problem. There was a war on drugs and the solution was incarceration.
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse to the reality that regardless of what a Wikipedia article is titled, black drug addiction was not treated as a health issue in the general US public policy environment, but as a crime issue.
Similarly, a Pew study finds that the global median of people disagreeing with the idea that success in life is pretty much determined by forces outside our control is 38 percent, in the U.S. its 57 percent; the percentage of people internationally agreeing that its very important to work hard to get ahead in life is 50 percent, in the U.S. its 73 percent.
It could play a part. Atheism after all gives you less handlebars to lash outward and more to internalize. But we're talking about whites with a high school education, I doubt there is a large proliferation of atheism among this group. In addition, it wouldn't explain the lower rates in the much more atheist other countries.Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
I'm not really sure how humans being complicated affects institutional biases in media.
There wasn't a drug epidemic when it was a black health problem. There was a war on drugs and the solution was incarceration.
The underlying point beneath the snark is that this only achieves attention due to the demographic that's affected.
Which seems relevant since it's an example of the type of privilege that's actually produced the fragility in white people that results in the current response to a changing world and changing place in it.
Free education being available isn't going to solve anything if the mentality of the target audience is that they shouldn't need to do anything to adapt to the changing world. And the target of ire for the change ie minorities are also going to get that education access.
This is a racial issue as much as it's #economicanxiety.
I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse to the reality that regardless of what a Wikipedia article is titled, black drug addiction was not treated as a health issue in the general US public policy environment, but as a crime issue.
As for the American dream being dead the US citizenry in relatively recent polling still believes overwhelmingly in the idea that hard work and internal factors are the determinant of success.
As an atheist/agnostic is like to see receipts on that as I think that's likely bullshit conjecture.Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
I'm not being purposely obtuse, you were talking nomenclature, which was the same then as it is now. No need to call me names when you're wrong. Both were called an epidemic. Of course the solution to the problem is different and racially colored (though in the end the solution still seems to be to vote in a tough guy who promises to crack down on crime, so it's not that different).I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse to the reality that regardless of what a Wikipedia article is titled, black drug addiction was not treated as a health issue in the general US public policy environment, but as a crime issue.
Yeah keeping up appearances. But it wasn't true then just as much as it's not true now. Poverty rates have hardly changed in fifty years, so what makes them suddenly no longer to reconcile the cognitive dissonance? A black president? Too recent. A less myopic view due to the internet? Maybe. Methinks it's more to do with superficial entertainment.As for the American dream being dead the US citizenry in relatively recent polling still believes overwhelmingly in the idea that hard work and internal factors are the determinant of success.
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
I'm not being purposely obtuse, you were talking nomenclature, which was the same then as it is now. No need to call me names when you're wrong. Both were called an epidemic. Of course the solution to the problem is different and racially colored (though in the end the solution still seems to be to vote in a tough guy who promises to crack down on crime, so it's not that different).
Yeah keeping up appearances. But it wasn't true then just as much as it's not true now. Poverty rates have hardly changed in fifty years, so what makes them suddenly no longer to reconcile the cognitive dissonance? A black president? Too recent. A less myopic view due to the internet? Maybe. Methinks it's more to do with superficial entertainment.
Winner. Ten points.I think what he was trying to say is the mainstream solution to the crack epidemic was incarceration and over policing of urban neighborhoods of whereas the proposed solutions for this opioid epidemic tend to be more therapy and rehab based.
Why on earth does it matter what a particular individual's response to drug addiction in black communities was then or is now. I'm not referring to what you thought, or he thought or she thought about the problem in the 90s. I'm talking about what the collective public response was, and it was not compassion.Depends on who you are. To say it was and is treated one monolithic way by everyone is foolish. You also don't know yet how it will be reacted to with the outbreak in white communities. Are we going to suddenly look at drugs as a health issue instead of a criminal one now that it affects whites more? I highly doubt it.
There was a Star Trek DS9 episode sorta involving that. One of their time travel episodes set in the 2020s, where eventually the government just grabbed all the blue collar lower class workers and minority workers and forcibly put them in segregated slums and denied them basic rights until a revolt eventually occurred.
Past tense was the episode. I assume something of the sorts will happen someday.
Schattenjäger;232668017 said:This is just a hunch but what about the rate of atheism?
I'd imagine the increase in atheists has something to do with the increase of suicides
Also I'd venture and say there are less atheists in the black and Latino communities
I think what he was trying to say is the mainstream solution to the crack epidemic was incarceration and over policing of urban neighborhoods of whereas the proposed solutions for this opioid epidemic tend to be more therapy and rehab based. Doctors and pharmaceutical created this issue and If it wasn't for the power of those industries lobbies I am pretty sure lawmakers would of gone after those companies to force them to pay for people's rehab.
Also I've had the conversation about why there is this large divide between urban and rural areas residents in life expectancy compared to life reality (with a friend of mine who often debates with me on behalf for the "forgotten" masses in the rural parts of America). My solution is there needs to be some radical alteration of what people moralize as right or wrong if they have any chance of bouncing back. They were indoctrinated in this ideal of the American dream, and White privilege yet both of those things are obsolete. Coal Miners needs to learn how to produce green tech, America should look to be the biggest proponent of the legalizing of weed because it could be a new crop that people grow and export to urban areas for money. (Like tobacco), laws need to be made that tax factories that rely on machinery that the revenue from could be used to create more job training and placement centers across the country. Other laws need to made to require a quota of "human" workers at a factory as well. More outside the box thinking needs to happen politically as well but we're so use to trying to "fast food" our politics into a 2 sided debate we rarely take a step back and see if third or even fourth options exist or even if solutions could actually function on a national level when a more localized version would be the best.
Anyhow none of those things will pass because as others said people rather hold onto the appearance of being "good" and "following tradition" than admit they are fucked up and need a new approach to life.
Winner. Ten points.
Why on earth does it matter what a particular individual's response to drug addiction in black communities was then or is now. I'm not referring to what you thought, or he thought or she thought about the problem in the 90s. I'm talking about what the collective public response was, and it was not compassion.
No, it's pretty clear that we're only going to look at certain types of drug addiction in certain geographies with certain demographics as a health issue rather than a criminal one. That's sort of part of the point.
Gun deaths, of which a large proportion are white male suicides, and black male homicide victims, should also be considered a public health issue, but isn't. If it does eventually break through to US public consciousness that it is, well it will only do so for one part of those deaths.
Perhaps, I'm being jaded, but the idea that if "deaths of despair" had shot up recently in black communities, it would still be receiving the attention and the reaction both in public sentiment and policy that opioid addiction in rural communities has received, is pretty naive.
Again I don't have any facts in front of me right now...it was just me thinking aloudIt could play a part. Atheism after all gives you less handlebars to lash outward and more to internalize. But we're talking about whites with a high school education, I doubt there is a large proliferation of atheism among this group. In addition, it wouldn't explain the lower rates in the much more atheist other countries.
Current administration is only likely to make things worse with regards the demographics already struggling.
That's a valid point but these surveys are never totally accurateafaik higher education seems to have an inverse relationship with religiosity which contradicts your supposition, based on the graphic provided by the OP.
Why was Germany and France so high in 1990?
Interesting how the other countries listed have either fallen or stayed the same to meet on a similar level and US has shot up.
Would like to see a breakdown of areas in the US.
CARA and the 21st Century Cares Act, with it's $1 billion towards the opioid addiction problem received broad bipartisan support in both the GOP controlled House and Senate.If conservatives start advocating for lessening drug penalties and free rehab once drugs are a "white" community problem I will fully concede your point. I don't see that happening. Liberals on the other hand would generally like to treat it as a health issue even in black communities (liberal states already do). So I meant more your political group than the individual. And that matters. I do think you are being pretty jaded as these deaths of despair have received quite a bit of attention over the past 30 years in black communities. And my money is whether black or white issue, your solution to dealing with it is probably formed by if you are liberal or conservative.