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Microsoft Confirms 53MHz GPU Speed Upgrade For Xbox One

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E

ekim

Member
Albert Penello said:
That's an interesting point, let me say two things.

First - I wouldn't jump directly to that conclusion. I said these things had to be in balance. There are other ways to get good acoustic performance.

I'm not saying you don't make tradeoffs against those things, but it wouldn't be correct in assuming we made noise

Second (and you corrected yourself) people use the box for a lot of media functions. I think it would take a beating if we were even close to the noise level of the 2005 360.

As I remind people sometimes. We have a console that is roughly 8x - 10x the performance of last gen, depending on how you define it. It's in a case that is only ~ 10% larger than the launch 360. And yet it's quieter than the 3rd major revision we did 7 years in.
Click to expand...

Can you comment on the multiplat performance X1 vs PS4 vs PC and/or the 12GB RAM rumor? Are devkits having 12GB?
 
K

Kazuma Kiryu

Member
Risk Breaker said:
Hmmm.
Click to expand...

That depends on the article though!

Choosing the right graphics hardware would be somewhat more challenging. On the face of it, Microsoft's GPU sounds remarkably similar to AMD's Bonaire design, as found in the Radeon HD 7790, while Sony's choice is uncannily like the Pitcairn product, the closest equivalent to the PS4's graphics chip being the desktop Radeon HD 7870, or closer still in terms of clock-speed, the laptop Radeon HD 7970M.
Click to expand...

So, we chose the Radeon HD 7850 for our "target Xbox One" (16 compute units vs. 12 in the XO hardware) and the Radeon HD 7870 XT as our PS4 surrogate (24 compute units vs. 18 in the Sony console).
Click to expand...
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
cyberheater said:
Have you got a link which show that PS4 also reserves a percentage of GPU power while a game is running?
Click to expand...

I don't see fast task switching possible unless they do this. Should be less than what the XBox One will require, though (unlike the X1, the PS4 won't support snap mode).
 
K

Krakn3Dfx

Member
Sid said:
So why haven't they done it? cooling/yield issue?
Click to expand...

2132491-1555712-252150_gerstmann100_463_super_super.jpg
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Banned
Albert Penello said:
Hey guys

Lots of interesting comments on the GPU upgrade.

Let me put this out there. I know there is doubt about the “truth” of what we say, so some of you will believe me, and others won’t. But here goes…

We set aggressive targets for reliability, performance, yields, and noise. Those things always have to be balanced. We want this box to have rock-solid reliability. We want it to be DEAD quiet (and let me tell you, X1 is quieter than the new Xbox 360 we just released). And we wanted killer game performance. But those targets are in conflict with each other.

What we’ve found through the development process is we were able to actually exceed our goals on the thermals and acoustics. This gave us headroom to increase the clock speed without any hit to noise, reliability, or heat, so we took the opportunity to bump the GPU. I get it’s only 6% or so, but that could translate to a few FPS in the real world.

I know there are many conspiracy theories out there about how and why we make decisions. I can tell you – this was something we were hoping to be able to do for a while. So we were prepared for this. Nobody should worry this puts us at any risk or people are scrambling at this decision.
Click to expand...

You guys need to do some more of this. As others have said, something is better than nothing, and it's good to get some insight into the whole process.

Now regarding conspiracy theories, tell me about the super secret Xbox Ones you guys are testing (half joking) :p
 
L

LeeFowler.CU

Banned
cyberheater said:
Have you got a link which show that PS4 also reserves a percentage of GPU power while a game is running?
Click to expand...

Sony hasn't deigned to release any such information. I'm just being realistic based on their goals to provide fast task switching as seen in the OS video.

Also @Albert: thanks for being a part of this forum and sharing your views. It's interesting to hear from someone so close to the development of the XB1.
 
T

ToyBroker

Banned
SenjutsuSage said:
Fact is we do have a history, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. It went from 800MHZ to 853MHZ. Just because it comes from Microsoft doesn't somehow make it no good. They confirmed initial clock speed was 800MHZ, and then they said it was overclocked to 853MHZ. A very simple and small history, but a history nonetheless.

The biggest talk in that thread was regarding the possible downclock of the GPU as a direct result of ESRAM yield issues. A GPU downclock was the "main event" as they say. No point trying to rewrite history at this point, because it's way too well documented. None of the 1000MHZ GPU rumors got anywhere the kind of attention that a potential downclock of the GPU did. I agree with one thing, however, a death nail certainly went into something today, but it was a nail in the downclock rumors people thought were true, the same ones they were saying were somehow further confirmed by a eurogamer article that did more to discredit any suggestion of a downclock than it did to somehow lend credence to them.
Click to expand...

My god Senjutsu is here. Pack it in guys.

That said, 6% bump = a few fps or so?

Even the DF "comparison" showed only ~8FPS with the original specs difference and that is with a 50% more powerful GPU (although we know that comparison is BS)
 
I

i-Lo

Member
Albert Penello said:
That's an interesting point, let me say two things.

First - I wouldn't jump directly to that conclusion. I said these things had to be in balance. There are other ways to get good acoustic performance.

I'm not saying you don't make tradeoffs against those things, but it wouldn't be correct in assuming we made noise a priority.

Second (and you corrected yourself) people use the box for a lot of media functions. I think it would take a beating if we were even close to the noise level of the 2005 360.

As I remind people sometimes. We have a console that is roughly 8x - 10x the performance of last gen, depending on how you define it. It's in a case that is only ~ 10% larger than the launch 360. And yet it's quieter than the 3rd major revision we did 7 years in.
Click to expand...

This response is appreciated.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
FranXico said:
I don't see fast task switching possible unless they do this. Should be less than what the XBox One will require, though (unlike the X1, the PS4 won't support snap mode).
Click to expand...

But I guess in snap mode you're rendering a lot less pixels so the GPU performance will scale okay for that application.
 
B

Bsigg12

Member
ekim said:
Can you comment on the multiplat performance X1 vs PS4 vs PC and/or the 12GB RAM rumor? Are devkits having 12GB?
Click to expand...

I doubt he will have anything to say about the multiplat stuff. That's all on the developers to maintain parity or optimize versions. As for the possible RAM increase, that would be a Gamescom announcement if it were true.
 
K

Klocker

Member
Kazuma Kiryu said:
You're claiming that people are doing "ego massages" by comparing the hardware, when you posted earlier that the only major difference between the consoles is that one uses ddr3 and the other gddr5.
That sounds "about right", if we ignore the difference in both gpu's, which isn't something easily ignored.
Click to expand...

sorry was being sarcastic in comparison to all the posts saying the opposite. ;)
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Robot Pants said:
Because they are. Probably end up being a mess.
Click to expand...

If they'd stopped working on the product months ago, like many people here suggest should be the normal procedure, the product would have been ready months ago and, hence, already released and would be laying in the stores right now.

And, again, why on earth do people think that the clock bump is something they came up with last week? The fact that they dropped that information in a podcast, or any other hardware-related information, does not mean that they decided on that issue literally hours before that podcast. Come on, people...
 
A

Albert Penello

Member
I'm confirming with the silicon team how this impacts ESRAM and TFLOPS. I'm pretty sure but I don't like to post without being 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any rumors. I try to come on and provide clarity and more detail around things we've already announced. But I cannot for obvious reasons start confirming or denying rumors.
 
M

mr teaspoon

Member
Niteandgrey said:
mr teaspoon said:
Ugh, dammit, Microsoft is really making this hard for me. Not this 53mhz, just everything in aggregate.

I skipped PS3 last gen (not out of any bias or preference, really - just made a choice and stuck with it) and love my 360.

Of course I preordered PS4 at the end of E3 - used games, more powerful hardware, and better first parties. Still sucks having to pick up from XBL and migrate to PSN, and I much prefer Xbox's controller. And I do have to factor in that my girlfriend and I use our Xbox much more for Netflix and video apps than games...
Click to expand...

I would remind you that the big differentiator for a lot of us is that Microsoft tried to turn the gaming industry upside down and bend us all over in the process. I have little doubt that the Xbone will be a good system, but I have a long memory and there's zero chance that I'm going to reward Microsoft with my money after they made it clear what they really think of us.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, I really couldn't care less about that. I don't take that sort of thing personally. All I take away from the situation is that, in this instance, Sony was more in touch with the core gamer.
 
Chobel

Chobel

Member
LeeFowler.CU said:
Sony hasn't deigned to release any such information. I'm just being realistic based on their goals to provide fast task switching as seen in the OS video.

Also @Albert: thanks for being a part of this forum and sharing your views. It's interesting to hear from someone so close to the development of the XB1.
Click to expand...

afaik fast task switching doesn't need GPU and even if does I don't think that you need that much GPU power, no way as big as 123 GFLOPS.
 
D

Derekloffin

Member
LeeFowler.CU said:
Sony hasn't deigned to release any such information. I'm just being realistic based on their goals to provide fast task switching as seen in the OS video.
Click to expand...

Task switching doesn't require simultaneous GPU power. The reason X1 requires 10% is they have that snap mode stuff, where the game is rendering and you have something else rendering as well. A task switch doesn't require that as you can suspend the game rendering and take it over, or even potentially just request the power back from the game (so the game might drop it's frame rate while in the background).
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
Bundy said:
We do?
Maybe the CPU. But we know almost everything about the PS4
Click to expand...

I thought there was something

Like one small detail or two although I guess I want to know if OS uses any GPU resources

I couldn't think of anything specific but felt if I just asked for the X1 specs it would seem one-sided
 
E

ekim

Member
Albert Penello said:
I'm confirming with the silicon team how this impacts ESRAM and TFLOPS. I'm pretty sure but I don't like to post without being 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any rumors. I try to come on and provide clarity and more detail around things we've already announced. But I cannot for obvious reasons start confirming or denying rumors.
Click to expand...

Appreciated. Any hints maybe? :p
 
O

operon

Member
Albert Penello said:
That's an interesting point, let me say two things.

First - I wouldn't jump directly to that conclusion. I said these things had to be in balance. There are other ways to get good acoustic performance.

I'm not saying you don't make tradeoffs against those things, but it wouldn't be correct in assuming we made noise a priority.

Second (and you corrected yourself) people use the box for a lot of media functions. I think it would take a beating if we were even close to the noise level of the 2005 360.

As I remind people sometimes. We have a console that is roughly 8x - 10x the performance of last gen, depending on how you define it. It's in a case that is only ~ 10% larger than the launch 360. And yet it's quieter than the 3rd major revision we did 7 years in.
Click to expand...
Albert great to have you posting in here looking forward to the one on launch day
 
G

GrizzledGrump

Banned
SwiftDeath said:
I thought there was something

Like one small detail or two although I guess I want to know if OS uses any GPU resources

I couldn't think of anything specific but felt if I just asked for the X1 specs it would seem one-sided
Click to expand...
If PS4 does multitasking of any kind (real MT, not that fake cell phone stuff) it's a given that some GPU resources have to be guaranteed for it.
 
V

Vashetti

Banned
Amjad said:
What does "devs can write to the metal" mean ?
Click to expand...

Consoles have fixed specifications. For example, I own a PS3. If you own a PS3 too, they have the exact same components inside.

If we each have PCs however, there is no guarantee of us having the same components in our respective PCs (in fact it's very unlikely).

Therefore coding to the metal means that developers can optimise their games specifically for the hardware inside the console, because they know that everyone has the same hardware. Theoretically this gives you much greater performance.
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
cyberheater said:
But I guess in snap mode you're rendering a lot less pixels so the GPU performance will scale okay for that application.
Click to expand...

In snap mode you could typically be rendering images from two distinct framebuffers at the same time. It is somewhat more demanding to any GPU.

The amount of pixels used for the game while snapped does not mean that the game is rendered at a lower resolution. It actually requires the image to be scaled down as a final step. These GPUs probably handle all these things without a problem, it should only need 2D acceleration for scaling the final rendered image after all.

Having said that, my conviction is that both the X1 and PS4 will need to reserve some GPU cycles to ensure fluid task switching, and that we won't notice any kind of bottlenecks on either console.

Derekloffin said:
Task switching doesn't require simultaneous GPU power. The reason X1 requires 10% is they have that snap mode stuff, where the game is rendering and you have something else rendering as well. A task switch doesn't require that as you can suspend the game rendering and take it over, or even potentially just request the power back from the game (so the game might drop it's frame rate while in the background).
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the PS4 does animate task transitions, and that we'll have lots of UI overlay for things like friends messaging, etc.

It should be fairly light compared to what a snap mode demands from the GPU, though.
 
B

besada

Banned
i-Lo said:
Majority of gamers who own 360 or PS3 or both use them for more than gaming but most likely none of them would trade performance for the sake of shaving some decibels off the top.
Click to expand...

I would totally trade three or four frames a second if my PS3 Launchfatbcmonster didn't sound like an airplane taking off when the house gets warm. I would trade the same frames if my XBox's CD drive didn't mysteriously spin up at the volume of a chainsaw when I turned the machine off.

Some of us are more sensitive to noise and less enamored of a couple more frames a second. And since one or the other is always on when I'm in the living room watching things, it's a pretty big issue.
 
M

miDnIghtEr20C

Banned
Albert Penello said:
I'm confirming with the silicon team how this impacts ESRAM and TFLOPS. I'm pretty sure but I don't like to post without being 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any rumors. I try to come on and provide clarity and more detail around things we've already announced. But I cannot for obvious reasons start confirming or denying rumors.
Click to expand...

I for one like the part I put in bold. Leaves for more more speculation! :D
 
A

ari

Banned
None of this even matters. Both consoles will output graphically enhanced spectacular software no matter how you spin it. Come December, both consoles will hold its own. See dead rising ,killzone, and ryse for examples.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Albert Penello said:
I'm confirming with the silicon team how this impacts ESRAM and TFLOPS. I'm pretty sure but I don't like to post without being 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any rumors. I try to come on and provide clarity and more detail around things we've already announced. But I cannot for obvious reasons start confirming or denying rumors.
Click to expand...

109.2GB/s and 1.31TFLOPS?
 
J

JaggedSac

Member
Albert, it was a really good idea for you to come to GAF and interact. Thanks for doing it. I think you can get a lot of good will from the forum by talking straight to everyone without the PR noise.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
Albert Penello said:
I'm confirming with the silicon team how this impacts ESRAM and TFLOPS. I'm pretty sure but I don't like to post without being 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on any rumors. I try to come on and provide clarity and more detail around things we've already announced. But I cannot for obvious reasons start confirming or denying rumors.
Click to expand...
I love how forthcoming MS has become with the community, it's a shame it took the reveal/E3 debacle though when MS was even cancelling interviews with the press. Hopefully you'll keep it up.
 
D

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Birathen said:
But has Sorny Said how much ram was for os and how much for games? All I know I heard from Sony is 8gb in the box.
Click to expand...

Sony never commented on how much RAM was being used for the OS/games.

It was mentioned or rumoured that it was 512kb when the console had 4GB RAM and the bump to 8GB made people assume 1GB for the OS.

In any case, I'm a little concerned that both these consoles are due to launch in, if rumours hold, November, and they're still messing around with OS allocations, clockspeeds and whatever else. Nice they're trying to squeeze as much as they can out of final hardware but, hell, it's making me nervous.
 
B

bronzeP

Banned
Doctor_Thomas said:
Sony never commented on how much RAM was being used for the OS/games.

It was mentioned or rumoured that it was 512kb when the console had 4GB RAM and the bump to 8GB made people assume 1GB for the OS.

In any case, I'm a little concerned that both these consoles are due to launch in, if rumours hold, November, and they're still messing around with OS allocations, clockspeeds and whatever else. Nice they're trying to squeeze as much as they can out of final hardware but, hell, it's making me nervous.
Click to expand...

7999.5MB for games confirmed lol
 
B

BleachAndPepsi

Banned
JaggedSac said:
Albert, it was a really good idea for you to come to GAF and interact. Thanks for doing it. I think you can get a lot of good will from the forum by talking straight to everyone without the PR noise.
Click to expand...

I actually feel somewhat differently about it. Don't get me wrong, it's extremely nice of him to take time out of his busy day to share a little information with us, but I feel like it's something that shouldn't need to be done. If their messaging were wide open and honest, there'd be no need to clarify this stuff on message boards.

Look at it this way: The podcast where this GPU speed increase was mentioned was the first time a Microsoft employee ever confirmed that the speed used to be 800Mhz. If Microsoft had been up front about these numbers from day one, nobody would be calling them out now. When they went out of their way to hide the numbers, it just made them look as though they were afraid to speak about console power because they knew they were behind Sony.

Transparency breeds trust. And Albert's explanations, though appreciated, wouldn't be necessary.
 
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