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Wii got Hacked for real! Homebrew now possible?

B

border

Member
gcfan2k5 said:
By each firmware having different decryption keys, thus breaking whichever iso loader they would be using to accomplish loading a backup. They would have to crack the new keys on a per game basis, and thats easier said than done. Hardware changes to prevent future access to the memory modules would solve the issue in the future. Once the firmware was updated, that version of the isoloader thats on the disc would fail to work, at least potentially. The potential isoloader would use keys from a specific game, so it would possibly be detectable (the keys from Lego Star Wars being used to boot Mario Galaxy would set off a red flag in the firmware patch program and the game would refuse to boot etc etc). It would stop the majoirty of the problem.
Click to expand...
Except that the firmware rom chip in the system wasn't designed to be flashed thousands and thousands of times, every single time the system boots. Eventually all that is going to kill the chip itself, and now you have an entirely new issue to deal with.

Plus hackers have access to all the data on the disc so there is nothing to stop them from hacking the game itself to run with different firmware, or with no firmware update at all. This solution makes the hardware less reliable and probably won't stop piracy.
 
A

Apenheul

Member
From what I understand from the video this has nothing to do with being able to run copied software. I think they modified the starwars game to run their own code and still needed a modchip for that.
 
W

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
FilosopherStoner said:
So we go from a video of guys showing they can run their own code. We are just taking their word for it? Some people here are talking as if it's already been released and they are playing with it. Do we REALLY know exactly how everything is done? I say we wait for more details before everyone gets their panties in a wad.
Click to expand...

Today is also the spanish "April Fool's" day...
 
C

cae

Member
I did not click the link. Why? Because today is Innocent's Day/April Fool's on the spanish-speaking world. Alread red some "PS3 HACKED, ISOLOADER COMING" on some other site.
 
F

FilosopherStoner

Member
Well this is from a hackers convention, so it has SOME creditability, even though I remember seeing the 360 run Linux at the same convention if I remember correctly.

In any case, Sunday our questions should be answered, they are doing a live steaming "Lightning Round" with the guys involved.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
FilosopherStoner said:
So we go from a video of guys showing they can run their own code. We are just taking their word for it? Some people here are talking as if it's already been released and they are playing with it. Do we REALLY know exactly how everything is done? I say we wait for more details before everyone gets their panties in a wad.

Oh and that Wii-remote head tracking thing was the coolest thing I have seen in a long time. I hope more people are working on that software.
Click to expand...
yeah i remember the skeptics last year too... same event, new year, new reveal...

"theoretically hacked" indeed
 
A

angelfly

Member
Great news! I had given up on the thought of homebrew then gen. Now I'm back to thinking about what's possible once it's here.
 
I

Imperial Hot

Banned
So you guys think they faked this demonstration on-stage in front of hundreds of nerds who would have noticed even the slightest inconsistency.

You're crazy.
 
H

Hitmeneer

Member
Link316 said:
I just wanna be able to play imports
Click to expand...

QFT. It should be possible to make a FreeLoader now right? No More Heroes - USA/blood version here I come :p .

About Piracy. Piracy is ofcourse bad especially for small publishers/developers, but it was already real easy with a mod-chip like everyone knows (although the new revisions should be harder to mod). But that's a general problem off all consoles. The big pro's off the other consoles is that MS is really aggressive with their anti-piracy (even consoles that use more or less power are being bricked) and Sony uses Blu Ray and there aren't that many people with Blu Ray burners. But if people want to pirate games, they will always find a way.
 
S

SexConker

Banned
border said:
Legally, I don't know if they can disable your system. There is not any relevant case law or statutory law that says they can. Intentionally updating so that hardware is destroyed opens up the possibility of a class action lawsuit.

It'd be bad PR either way, so neither MS nor Nintendo will be "bricking" any systems intentionally.
Click to expand...

Legally - if they brick your Wii, what are you going to do about it?
Sue?
Nintendo will simply counter sue you for piracy.

False positives?
Yeah, like all the false positives for the 360....

Any legit false positive would be handled by a simple "Send in your Wii and we'll repair it.".
They'll look at your Wii, see if you have a hacked firmware, and then decide what to do with you. Hint - if they brick your Wii you can't downgrade your firmware before you send it in. And even if you could and were able to fool them, Nintendo would just ship you a newer motherboard, getting a hackable one off the streets and stopping you in your tracks.
 
F

FilosopherStoner

Member
snack said:
So you guys think they faked this demonstration on-stage in front of hundreds of nerds who would have noticed even the slightest inconsistency.

You're crazy.
Click to expand...

That's not what I am saying at all man. I am just saying, we don't know the details. Are we sure it doesn't require a chip? Personally I would rather just stay skeptical with it. Like I said, we will find out more info during the weekend. It isn't all doom for Nintendo just yet, that's all I am saying.
 
D

Doc Evils

Member
So if they now have code that lets them by pass security and run their own software, than means something like the dreamcast raindeer bootdisc right?
 
L

Lost Fragment

Obsessed with 4chan
Can't believe people think that this will affect Nintendo that negatively. Look how ridiculously easy it is to pirate games on the DS. Yeah, it's definitely a problem for them, but flash ROMs didn't exactly knock the DS off of its mountain.
 
C

Chris R

Member
I don't see how anyone could be against this. This isn't piracy, that has existed for a long time already. This is enabling people to design their own games/apps that use the full extent of the Wii's Hardware.
 
T

tokkun

Member
gcfan2k5 said:
By each firmware having different decryption keys, thus breaking whichever iso loader they would be using to accomplish loading a backup. They would have to crack the new keys on a per game basis, and thats easier said than done. Hardware changes to prevent future access to the memory modules would solve the issue in the future. Once the firmware was updated, that version of the isoloader thats on the disc would fail to work, at least potentially. The potential isoloader would use keys from a specific game, so it would possibly be detectable (the keys from Lego Star Wars being used to boot Mario Galaxy would set off a red flag in the firmware patch program and the game would refuse to boot etc etc). It would stop the majoirty of the problem.
Click to expand...

There are already 10 million Wiis out there, and there would be millions more before Nintendo could get a redesigned board into systems, so hardware updates will not solve the problem in the future. I doubt pirate groups would be much deterred by having to perform this hardware hack on an individual game basis, either. The Dreamcast ISOs that everyone has been crowing about in this thread required custom-built hardware to extract from the GD-ROMs. Also, the inherent problem in trying to patch the encryption system is that it may be difficult to maintain compatibility with games that are already released.
 
H

harSon

Banned
Lost Fragment said:
Can't believe people think that this will affect Nintendo that negatively. Look how ridiculously easy it is to pirate games on the DS. Yeah, it's definitely a problem for them, but flash ROMs didn't exactly knock the DS off of its mountain.
Click to expand...

I think people are trying to say that there is a huge difference between having to purchase additional hardware to pirate (ie. Flash cards, Mod Chips, Boot disk) and being able to pirate with hardware thats already at home (ie. Simply burning a DVD).

Edit: Off topic... but this guy is awesome.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5EvhHy7eQ
 
I

Imperial Hot

Banned
harSon said:
I think people are trying to say that there is a huge difference between having to purchase additional hardware to pirate (ie. Flash cards, Mod Chips, Boot disk) and being able to pirate with hardware thats already at home (ie. Simply burning a DVD).
Click to expand...
Exactly.

This is as easy as music or movie pirating, and we all know how much that has taken off.
 
T

Talamius

Member
As mentioned before all Nintendo can really do is ban those keys in future firmware updates. If you have a launch day (or probably even manufactured up to this point) Wii there is nothing stopping you from running homebrew. It'll probably be patched out in the next hardware revision.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Talamius said:
As mentioned before all Nintendo can really do is ban those keys in future firmware updates. If you have a launch day (or probably even manufactured up to this point) Wii there is nothing stopping you from running homebrew. It'll probably be patched out in the next hardware revision.
Click to expand...
Well, except there are probably actual legit games that would get blocked if Nintendo banned those keys.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
Doc Evils said:
So if they now have code that lets them by pass security and run their own software, than means something like the dreamcast raindeer bootdisc right?
Click to expand...
I would say so, but probably more like games that self boot, same sort of thing if this all goes "to plan", you never know what nintendo have as backup.

Talamius said:
As mentioned before all Nintendo can really do is ban those keys in future firmware updates.
Click to expand...
Lego star wars had a good run.
 
A

AtomicShroom

Member
Talamius said:
As mentioned before all Nintendo can really do is ban those keys in future firmware updates. If you have a launch day (or probably even manufactured up to this point) Wii there is nothing stopping you from running homebrew. It'll probably be patched out in the next hardware revision.
Click to expand...

Yes that is simply brilliant. Obviously!


... ... Except that all games released to date would also stop functioning! :lol
 
T

thefro

Member
badcrumble said:
Well, except there are probably actual legit games that would get blocked if Nintendo banned those keys.
Click to expand...

Nothing an if/then statement wouldn't fix, provided the new encryption scheme is solid.

if game = new then use encryption 2
else encryption 1

With forced firmware updates, they can really stay ahead of the game and freeze the pirates out.

Imagine if the actual code of Smash Brothers checked to see which encryption key version the SW used, and if it used the old keys, it bricked your console.
 
D

Dachande

Member
Talamius said:
As mentioned before all Nintendo can really do is ban those keys in future firmware updates. If you have a launch day (or probably even manufactured up to this point) Wii there is nothing stopping you from running homebrew. It'll probably be patched out in the next hardware revision.
Click to expand...

What's to stop Generic Wii Hacker X from pulling out the key from another game? Or pulling the key out of something huge like Mario Galaxy?

Banning a key isn't something to be taken lightly - how do you think Traveller's Tales/LucasArts are going to react if Nintendo's solution is "yeah, sorry guys, we're just going to make all current copies of your game in the retail channel worthless, laters"?
 
A

AtomicShroom

Member
thefro said:
Nothing an if/then statement wouldn't fix, provided the new encryption scheme is solid.

if game = new then use encryption 2
else encryption 1

With forced firmware updates, they can really stay ahead of the game and freeze the pirates out.

Imagine if the actual code of Smash Brothers checked to see which encryption key version the SW used, and if it used the old keys, it bricked your console.
Click to expand...

Yes yes... except they could hack the Smash Brothers code so that it doesn't perform that check. Remember all those PS1 games that checked for a modchip? Oh how efficient that was. :lol


You guys crack me up. :lol
 
PkunkFury

PkunkFury

Member
I don't think this is that big a deal for the Wii. The people buying the Wii are the least likely consumer group to pirate. If this hurts anyone, it will be the niche hardcore Wii devs, but I could count them on one hand...
 
A

AltogetherAndrews

Member
PkunkFury said:
I don't think this is that big a deal for the Wii. The people buying the Wii are the least likely consumer group to pirate. If this hurts anyone, it will be the niche hardcore Wii devs, but I could count them on one hand...
Click to expand...

They are also the least likely to even understand the whole issue of pirating. Of the people i knew who owned Playstations back in the day, you'd always be most likely to find a stack of bootlegged games at the home of the most casual of the gamers. And it would be completely innocent, as if the dude really didn't see the problem.
 
H

harSon

Banned
PkunkFury said:
I don't think this is that big a deal for the Wii. The people buying the Wii are the least likely consumer group to pirate. If this hurts anyone, it will be the niche hardcore Wii devs, but I could count them on one hand...
Click to expand...

It could also drive the hardcores who have no problems with pirating into buying the system.
 
M

MiamiWesker

Member
AltogetherAndrews said:
They are also the least likely to even understand the whole issue of pirating. Of the people i knew who owned Playstations back in the day, you'd always be most likely to find a stack of bootlegged games at the home of the most casual of the gamers. And it would be completely innocent, as if the dude really didn't see the problem.
Click to expand...

During the DC years I had a guy in my high school who had all DC games and emulator disc for sale for like $3. You didn't have to work to find the discs or anything, they were widely available to anyone. If this is that level of bad then everyone will have access to this.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
snack said:
Exactly.

This is as easy as music or movie pirating, and we all know how much that has taken off.
Click to expand...
You can run pirated games and homebrew on PS2 without any hardware mods, commercial bootdisks or other weird stuff. It's even easier than hacking a PSP slim. Didn't take off as far as I can tell, maybe because it's somewhat inconvenient. We don't know how easy it is/ will be on Wii.
 
Dr. Kitty Muffins

Dr. Kitty Muffins

Member
FilosopherStoner said:
Well this is from a hackers convention, so it has SOME creditability, even though I remember seeing the 360 run Linux at the same convention if I remember correctly.

In any case, Sunday our questions should be answered, they are doing a live steaming "Lightning Round" with the guys involved.
Click to expand...


Hackers have conventions?

I would hate to see the booth babes at such conventions...................cheap skates.
 
D

Doc Evils

Member
wsippel said:
You can run pirated games and homebrew on PS2 without any hardware mods, commercial bootdisks or other weird stuff. It's even easier than hacking a PSP slim. Didn't take off as far as I can tell, maybe because it's somewhat inconvenient. We don't know how easy it is/ will be on Wii.
Click to expand...

yeah but it destroyed the dreamcast on how simple it was to do.
 
D

DaMainman

Member
Someone ought to edit the first (or an early) post and create a list of the information and possibilities known, both in techie speak and Layman's terms. We need to cut down the number of people flocking to the thread asking "Modchip required?" and "How do I played imports?", myself included.
 
S

sprocket

Banned
Home brew is such a stupid word and concept. Its all about piracy. It you really want a indie scene PCs are the way to go.
 
N

nli10

Member
yankeeforever2 said:
Where is it confirmed you don't need a modchip?
Click to expand...

IN THE YOU TUBE COMMENTS THE POSTER OF THE VIDEO HAS STATED THAT THE WII USED IS MODIFIED. THIS IS NOT A SOFTWARE ONLY SOLUTION.

yet

stumbly techie bloke on you tube said:
ScottyDtnip (1 hour ago) +4
Reply | Spam
Modchip required?

cjdkoh (50 minutes ago) +4
Reply | Spam
i don't see why people are modding this question down. it's a legitimate (in the loosest sense of the word) question.

crediar (47 minutes ago) (VIDEO POSTER)
Reply | Spam
you need a drivechip at the current state.
Click to expand...
 
blitz64

blitz64

Member
I'm a bit confused. The gamecube got hacked and it can run homebrew, correct?
The gamecube never got any bootable games like the Dreamcast. Is it because gamecube disc (mini DVDs) are hard to find?
Therefore, this doesn't really mean bootable wii games....
 
F

FilosopherStoner

Member
sprocket said:
Home brew is such a stupid word and concept. Its all about piracy. It you really want a indie scene PCs are the way to go.
Click to expand...

While this is generally true. I believe there is a lot to gain from home brew Wii development. I remember seeing a video of how easy the Wii remote is to program for, and considering the Wii is no where near as complex as say, the Cell processor, I think we could possibly see some real creative ideas.

I would buy another Wii mote if I could use that "head tracking" thing that guy had setup. Imagine a simple game using that technology, could be amazing.
 
D

DaMainman

Member
nli10 said:
IN THE YOU TUBE COMMENTS THE POSTER OF THE VIDEO HAS STATED THAT THE WII USED IS MODIFIED. THIS IS NOT A SOFTWARE ONLY SOLUTION.

yet
Click to expand...

Youtube said:
you need a drivechip at the current state.
Click to expand...

neogaf1.gif
 
M

MiloFoxburr

Member
blitz64 said:
I'm a bit confused. The gamecube got hacked and it can run homebrew, correct?
The gamecube never got any bootable games like the Dreamcast. Is it because gamecube disc (mini DVDs) are hard to find?
Therefore, this doesn't really mean bootable wii games....
Click to expand...

However it did get the ability to stream games and numerous SoftMods (Using SD Cards and the Action Replay) to boot copies
 
C

Christine

Member
FilosopherStoner said:
While this is generally true. I believe there is a lot to gain from home brew Wii development. I remember seeing a video of how easy the Wii remote is to program for, and considering the Wii is no where near as complex as say, the Cell processor, I think we could possibly see some real creative ideas.

I would buy another Wii mote if I could use that "head tracking" thing that guy had setup. Imagine a simple game using that technology, could be amazing.
Click to expand...

So? The Wii remote is a bluetooth device. A $10 usb bluetooth adapter is way less of an investment than a Wii console, even if we assume it will be easy to run arbitrary code on it out of the box. The PC is an open platform and far, far more powerful than the Wii.
 
G

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
I don't support capital punishment, but its bullshit like this that really test my conscience.
 
S

sangreal

Member
nli10 said:
IN THE YOU TUBE COMMENTS THE POSTER OF THE VIDEO HAS STATED THAT THE WII USED IS MODIFIED. THIS IS NOT A SOFTWARE ONLY SOLUTION.

yet
Click to expand...


Makes sense. The hack allows them to sign code, but the drive still has protection for copied disks. Its no different from trying to run a copied game, which is signed, on an unmodified Wii. I think this hack is likely to lead to a software solution though
 
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