Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I dunno, you can have big budget but the intent of the producers just making big bucks will still produce crap.
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"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
I dunno, you can have big budget but the intent of the producers just making big bucks will still produce crap.
Paracelsus
Member
Mandatory
I don't think it's really about the format, either. It's more about how much love and skill is put into the animation.
Both CG and hand-drawn animation have examples of pieces that look great because they had tons of talent and effort put into them, and pieces that look like shit because they were obviously made with minimal effort.
Both CG and hand-drawn animation have examples of pieces that look great because they had tons of talent and effort put into them, and pieces that look like shit because they were obviously made with minimal effort.
The Albatross
Member
I mean, you're using 1970s and 80s cartoons by Hanna Barbara as the example here, which is pretty lame. Anybody making this argument for the depth that hand drawn animation can provided isn't thinking of a company that, literally, shit out 10,000 cartoon properties over the course of a decade with the intent of throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks.
not that Hanna Barbera did not produce some amazing cartoons, but they cut just about every corner on earth with the intent of just getting shit out there as quickly as possible, loading it with advertisements, and making co-marketing deals.
It's like if someone says "60fps is inherently superior" and your counter-point is "LocoCycle runs 60 fps does that mean it's better than the Last of Us???"
not that Hanna Barbera did not produce some amazing cartoons, but they cut just about every corner on earth with the intent of just getting shit out there as quickly as possible, loading it with advertisements, and making co-marketing deals.
It's like if someone says "60fps is inherently superior" and your counter-point is "LocoCycle runs 60 fps does that mean it's better than the Last of Us???"
being in the animation industry myself I've seen alot of professionals with this kind of attitude where they will look down on 3d animation as inferior to 2d. University lecturers were pretty much 2D animators with no experience in 3D animation so automatically they were biased. I've seen judges at animation festivals give no.1 animation award to a 2D animation which was incomplete even though there was an amazing 3D animation that came 2nd.
Alot of times, it comes down to simply "i don't know how to animate in 3d, i don't get it and hate it. I'll instead like the methods and style that i know about when it comes to the process of animating it".
On top of this, good 3d animation is hard to accomplish due to the technical barriers involved and the fact that a lot of smaller/new animators are indeed lazy when it comes to animating in 3D. Alot of 3D animation from new animators are generally generic in visual design/ artstyle (by that I mean they are imitating bigger studios like disney/pixar/dreamworks etc).
2D allows you to experiment and focus on the movement and flow a hell of a easier to since theres very little prep work needed. As long as you have good art skills, you can 2D animate.
Both styles are fine. I think the hardest personally is stop motion animation, easily the most stressful and time consuming form of animating with very little room for error.
Here's a good student 2D animation that I think shows off the inventive and experimental side to 2D animation:
https://vimeo.com/215498188
Alot of times, it comes down to simply "i don't know how to animate in 3d, i don't get it and hate it. I'll instead like the methods and style that i know about when it comes to the process of animating it".
On top of this, good 3d animation is hard to accomplish due to the technical barriers involved and the fact that a lot of smaller/new animators are indeed lazy when it comes to animating in 3D. Alot of 3D animation from new animators are generally generic in visual design/ artstyle (by that I mean they are imitating bigger studios like disney/pixar/dreamworks etc).
2D allows you to experiment and focus on the movement and flow a hell of a easier to since theres very little prep work needed. As long as you have good art skills, you can 2D animate.
Both styles are fine. I think the hardest personally is stop motion animation, easily the most stressful and time consuming form of animating with very little room for error.
Here's a good student 2D animation that I think shows off the inventive and experimental side to 2D animation:
https://vimeo.com/215498188
Always-honest
Banned
Possible but that wouldn't make any sense for the artists. Most of them have a lot of integrity and ambition. Ambition to make something great, not to move up some retarded social-economic ladder.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Sushi is bad. Don't believe me? Try this California Roll I got at the gas station.
Wag
Member
old manatee
Banned
I don't have a dog in this fight, I just watch all the movies and that's my opinion. What do you think is the high-water mark of CGI?
Vincent Alexander
Member
Interesting. This is used in management and business classes, though it is "pick one." If you want quality, it will cost you time and money. If you want something quick, it will probably cost you to rush it out, and quality as well. So on and so forth.someone posted this on gaf a while ago and its stuck with me. Makes total sense too.
***Obviously talent helps too
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Once more, you miss the purpose of this thread. It's not "x is better than y", it's tearing down "x is inherently better and can never produce crap" because of dumb, faulty beliefs. I posted those examples because they exist to begin with as a means to say that not only is the claim bullshit, but it also shows their belief bullshit.
Yeah, stop motion can be really great if done well (forgot the name of the show, but I saw a stop motion Japanese video that was focused in action, it was really great but damn it I forgot the name) but is very stressful. Aardman is master to that craft.
tkscz
Member
OP's strawman doesn't really hold up, of course it isn't inherently better.
but...
OP isn't the one using strawman arguments, but the people who annoy him (and to an extent me) are the ones using strawman.
Yes, Flash/ToonBoom are cheaper and faster than hand drawn animation, which can lead to rushed work, bad tweens, simply shapes/colors, strange animation, horrible clipping etc... However, as OP pointed out, hand drawn wasn't immune to simple colors, bad clipping, lazy animation and so on. Its about who is doing it and how much effort they are putting into it.
Complistic
Member
Obviously you'll be able to find examples of bad animation. I don't think anyone in their right mind is saying simply because it's hand drawn it's better. It's that the best hand drawn stuff is better than the best animated stuff.
That being entirely subjective, but that's the argument. I've never seen anyone make the argument in the title.
That being entirely subjective, but that's the argument. I've never seen anyone make the argument in the title.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
This shit makes me want to throw up. Whenever I catch the new intro by accident I pop a blood vessel.
I think this is a big one. 3d animation is cheap and easily accessible enough these days that it's often used as a crutch in place of real effort or talent. Kind of the animation equivalent of throwing on tons of Instagram filters and Photoshop to bump up mediocre photography.
People may pick 3d animation to reduce effort. But people don't pick 2d animation for the same reason, since 2d is typically way more work.
The biggest exception I can think of where people might go 2d because it's less work is in the case of indie games that choose a "retro pixel graphics" look because it's less work than making and animating 3d models.
nhlducks35
Member
The Garden of Words
Vital Tundra
Member
Budget, skill, and time are what makes something look good. People are dumb.
Please. I notice it all. I just don't say anything because the tided turned years ago and I understand why it needed to. Animation industry is still a business looking to save time and money where they can.
CG certainly allows more crap to be put in the world. 1:1 it is the faster tool after all.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
yes... average.
DBZ is just the ultimate in awakening the primal desire to annihilate shit. THIS IS THE HYPE.
Damn this looks great. Is it actually interested outside of the cool art?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
lol why are people posting gifs though
like they miss the main point, that I even post it on the bottom lol
I think it's more towards accessibility than being cheap I'd argue.
like they miss the main point, that I even post it on the bottom lol
I think it's more towards accessibility than being cheap I'd argue.
Neverforget
Member
Computer made animations can be as awful though, looking at you 3D berserk 2016 T_T
UnemployedVillain
Member
Sounds like a strawman as I don't think I think you added the inherently part
PaulBizkit
Member
The Garden of Words
That's cheating. Shinkai lives and dies for this type of details
Silvergun-Blue
Member
The scene when the bikers ride into the tunnel, the CD jukebox in the bar and the doctors pattern indicator.
Anyway, the whole "Traditional is better" argument comes from a place of ignorance regarding how both styles of animation are produced.
People do massively underestimate how much effort and talent go into producing good cg animation.
The core element of 2D animation - that is, drawing still images frame by frame to produce the illusion of movement on playback - is entirely unchanged from traditional to digital. All that's changed is the medium. Can anyone give me a solid argument why a skilled animator drawing with a tablet and coloring each frame digitally will produce inferior work compared to the same artist doing the same scene, but drawing on paper and painting over cels?
old manatee
Banned
Gentleman Jack
Member
I strenuously object to the inclusion of The Flintstones among 'lazy' hand-painted animation. That show had a ton of incredibly talented designers and animators who had to work to an extremely tight budget yet yielded some very lively poses and backgrounds to offset the relatively static limited animation of the main characters.
This isn't laziness. It's coping with budgets and manpower chopped by more than half from the heyday of Disney and Fleischer animated shorts, but still managing a lot of respect for the craft and art of the animation while imbuing limited poses and inbetweens with a ton of personality and appeal. This is great fuckin animation. Laziness is not putting half the effort into designing background characters, painting such varied backgrounds or continuing to iterate on the inventive settings of Bedrock.
Yes, a lot of cheaply-produced hand-painted animation is 'lazy' in as much as artists and painters were given nowhere near the time and money required to make a good final product, but The Flintstones doesn't belong in the camp by miles. Credit to John K's blog for the images. I learned a lot from that guy.
This isn't laziness. It's coping with budgets and manpower chopped by more than half from the heyday of Disney and Fleischer animated shorts, but still managing a lot of respect for the craft and art of the animation while imbuing limited poses and inbetweens with a ton of personality and appeal. This is great fuckin animation. Laziness is not putting half the effort into designing background characters, painting such varied backgrounds or continuing to iterate on the inventive settings of Bedrock.
Yes, a lot of cheaply-produced hand-painted animation is 'lazy' in as much as artists and painters were given nowhere near the time and money required to make a good final product, but The Flintstones doesn't belong in the camp by miles. Credit to John K's blog for the images. I learned a lot from that guy.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
those are both hand drawn
what isn't hand drawn are generally stuff like flash or cgi
If you notice what I post towards HB, it's less about laziness and more about "cheating", hence I mentioned no-necks or why everyone in HB almost always has a neck tie. Though I do apologize if Fred is squeezed there, was going for an all HB image where everyone was wearing a tie.
Also I have issues with John K but that's less to do with animation and more of behavior and mindset.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It should be known that learning the programs for 3D animation is absolutely the hardest part of the whole process. And that's per project depending on what you wanna do. And that it's absolutely possible to replicate the look of 2D animation, (not referring to cel shading), arguably the best examples of 3D animation perfectly emulate 2D animation, but again, like all animation it takes a shit ton of work:
Don't sleep on 3D animation.
Don't sleep on 3D animation.
That second gif constantly being posted is so odd since it's pretty much an animated illustration instead of an actual...moving animation.The Garden of Words
IamDodongo
Member
I'm just in this thread for the pics
Jimnymebob
Member
I think it was this bit with the Doctor.
This is a weird example, as why the classic, hand drawn version is miles better, there's absolutely nothing stopping that from being a 1:1 recreation digitally.
The Albatross
Member
I'm indifferent about this animation discussion... I find something to like in all forms of animation, but OP's post is the quintessential definition of a strawman argument. Like, it could be in the dictionary as an example for a strawman argument.
People often complain that...
people think that...
People who say "hand drawn animation is inherently superior"...
People who say ""Drawing with hands is hard ergo the outcome will definitely be good because it is harder to do!"...
If you were ever looking to make a How-To guide on making unconvincing strawman arguments, the OP is a tremendous resource.
Don't sleep on 3D animation.
This Moana clip is awesome. It's one of those examples where animation is a better representation of reality than reality is. I've never seen Moana, don't know what she's saying, but I get it all. It's something that if you did this with live action actors, you'd likely have to zoom in on someone's face or have some sort of close up with obvious lip syncing to really get the same point that Moana can tell from a distance.
Naked Snake
Member
Yep. Want moar.
EvilRedEye
Member
Um, pretty much the entirety of the Disney Renaissance films from the '90s utilise CGI. And some Ghibli films such as Spirited Away.
FlutterPuffs
Member
3D animation is fairly new. The problem that they had a few years ago was that people, even with a good grasp on the principles of animation have to wrestle with the animation software to get the best out of it.
Now though, that's maturing. You will still see some CG animations with bad animation, but it's more in the case of the producers outsourcing the work to a cheap studio, which happens quite often.
Rendering is another problem too
Now though, that's maturing. You will still see some CG animations with bad animation, but it's more in the case of the producers outsourcing the work to a cheap studio, which happens quite often.
Rendering is another problem too
What I would say is that the aim should be for two (with one prioritized), but the outcome will only be one.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Hybrids are the greatest
I love Paperman so much.
I can't really say either way, but that both are pretty awesome and I commend any artist who works in either because I can tell a whole lot of work goes into both styles.
DarknessTear
Banned
Joining gif party.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
I find that there is a point where animation can look too clean. Examples. The original run of Hey Arnold vs. the trailer for the Jungle Movie. The first three seasons of SpongeBob vs the later seasons.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean, if you only look at the title, and if you live in a fantasy where people don't say this, sure.
Flame Lord
Member
Another one of those things that comes down to taste, but I definitely prefer 2D animation. In fact, since I was a kid I have always had a pretty strong distaste of CG. The big high budget Pixar stuff looks pretty good, as do some shorts, but anything in between typically just looks like dog shit to me.
Doctor Decimate
Member
similarly to practical effects, i think it has a lot to do with people preferring what has a more tangible quality to it. it's not always rational, but i dunno that it has to be; i think tons of people just find it inherently more impressive if it seems like it's really "there" as opposed to a digital creation that isn't.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Moana is probably genuinely the best 3D animated film ever in terms of animation. It's genuinely that next level shit. it's like the culmination of everything the studio learned since Glenn Keane directed Tangled.
The Garden of Words
Isn't this more so good art than good animation? (not sayng it's bad, but it's sort of missing the point)
Perfect example of the "anime cheat" in animation. Notice how none of the shapes on the car change? Everything is just basically a couple layers jiggling back and forth with some "swoosh" lines drawn on a layer on top.
Frieza almost doesn't move as well, except for that little arm flex (which I would imagine is a VERY heavily re-used asset, given how often characters flex in DBZ). Then he's simply scaled up while again the non-specific "explosion lines" are used to fill in most of the movement in frame. Water splashes like that take slightly more time, but again are non-specific so they can be done quickly because there's no such thing as off-model or out-of-proportion water. (Ever notice how many blob/smoke monsters Ghibli animation uses?)
This sort of thing takes very little time and effort compared to something like this (or that GiTS gif):
Although this type of thing uses its own short-cuts as well (rotoscoping, steady b.g., etc.).
There's nothing inherently better about digital or hand drawn, 2D or 3D. Good animation takes a shitload of work in any medium.
Right?! It looks like it's a just a filter over an image to begin with.