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[Fancyarcher]

I mean, you're using 1970s and 80s cartoons by Hanna Barbara as the example here, which is pretty lame. Anybody making this argument for the depth that hand drawn animation can provided isn't thinking of a company that, literally, shit out 10,000 cartoon properties over the course of a decade with the intent of throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks.

not that Hanna Barbera did not produce some amazing cartoons, but they cut just about every corner on earth with the intent of just getting shit out there as quickly as possible, loading it with advertisements, and making co-marketing deals.

It's like if someone says "60fps is inherently superior" and your counter-point is "LocoCycle runs 60 fps does that mean it's better than the Last of Us???"

Well only their primetime shows had that co-marketing deal, and that was mainly The Flintstones for the first two seasons (cigarettes). All "sitcoms" had to have advertisers back then, since actual commercials were much sparser, and they were usually at the end of the episode. By the 1970's there were blocks of regular commercials.

Interestingly enough in the 1980's Hanna Barbera only really produced two toy commercial shows, and the first (The Super Powers Team), was just an extension / remodeling of The Super friends.

 

[Raptomex]

I have the utmost respect for animators. I tried a few times when I was in school and I just don't have the patience. The work they do is incredible, really, especially if hand drawn. Both that and digital have their ups and downs, hand drawn is definitely a lot more work, but the results can be awesome. Depends on the style and your preference, just like anything else. With that said, I agree the claim is bullshit.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The absolute opposite

it was a pointless post then

 

[exmachina64]

Is anyone actually arguing that traditional animation is inherently superior and the worst examples of it are better than all cg? I've never heard that.

It was a common refrain for many years and still is in some circles.

 

[Haly]

Hand drawn superior.

 

[Dali]

being in the animation industry myself I've seen alot of professionals with this kind of attitude where they will look down on 3d animation as inferior to 2d. University lecturers were pretty much 2D animators with no experience in 3D animation so automatically they were biased. I've seen judges at animation festivals give no.1 animation award to a 2D animation which was incomplete even though there was an amazing 3D animation that came 2nd.

Alot of times, it comes down to simply "i don't know how to animate in 3d, i don't get it and hate it. I'll instead like the methods and style that i know about when it comes to the process of animating it".

On top of this, good 3d animation is hard to accomplish due to the technical barriers involved and the fact that a lot of smaller/new animators are indeed lazy when it comes to animating in 3D. Alot of 3D animation from new animators are generally generic in visual design/ artstyle (by that I mean they are imitating bigger studios like disney/pixar/dreamworks etc).

2D allows you to experiment and focus on the movement and flow a hell of a easier to since theres very little prep work needed. As long as you have good art skills, you can 2D animate.

Both styles are fine. I think the hardest personally is stop motion animation, easily the most stressful and time consuming form of animating with very little room for error.

Here's a good student 2D animation that I think shows off the inventive and experimental side to 2D animation:
https://vimeo.com/215498188

This post is very insightful but subjectively the highest of the highs of hand animation look better than cg to me. I was watching commentary of the incredibles where they said a particular scene where Mr. Incredible picked up a heavy object was not relying on physics sims and was totally hand animated. It made me appreciate the scene more but at the same time it wasn't going to supplant the many hand drawn animations I've seen as far as the impression it left.

 

[ReAxion]

So is Pokémon.

do people think they go from script to storyboard to backgrounds/sets + characters & voices, edits, rewrites, music composition - all that and more sent back and forth between the studio and wherever they're sending it to be animated... in a week's time?

you know what only takes a week to make? SNL. and it shows.

 

[Arex]

These are from the second one, right?

I think the bleached out colors of the sequel. There's some other amazing shots in there as well:

yeah, from the second movie.

Mob Psycho 100 and One Punch Man also have great animations

 

[PdotMichael]

People complaining about how ugly DB Super is and use it as argument in a 2D vs. 3D discussion.

Just imagine Toei decided to make DB Super a CG show while providing the same low budget, highly outsourced production and with a similiar weak creative/animation staff.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I feel like it's unfair to use Disney/Pixar or Dreamworks stuff to prove the point that 3D animation can be beautiful. Of course those films are beautiful, they are made with the highest possible budgets with the best 3D animators out there. If you look at lower-budget 3D animated films or even medium budget ones like Sausage Party, you can see a huge loss in quality.

How low budget are we talking? Because again, back to the argument about the tools being much better in this day and age, you can make great looking stuff with smaller budgets.
These are all made with half the budget of Moana

 

[Trickster]

It's definitely not "inherently" superior.

But, I've never been wow'ed by any CGI animation to the same degree that I have been with top quality handdrawn animation.

 

[mr jones]

I've never seen 3D animation that looks anywhere near as good as the best Ghibli has to offer.

If hand-drawn animation is not inherently superior, it's only because the vast amount of hard work that goes into something like Princess Mononoke doesn't magically come free with the medium.

Then you subjectively haven't seen enough 3D animation.

I love drawn animation as much as the next nerd, but good 3D stuff looks and animates amazingly. This includes all of the subtle stuff like cloth and water movement, bending and stretching of characters, and facial expressions.

 

[RangerBAD]

I think it takes a lot of skill to do good CGI, but a lot of times I just don't like the style unless it emulates a 2D style. So that's why I usually prefer hand drawn stuff.

 

[Spiritual_Chaos]

Alternatively, "is never lazy".

Reciepts on anyone ever saying this?

Or it being said enough to warrant a thread about the -- obvious -- statement "cell animation is often made on the cheap"

 

[Crossing Eden]

Reciepts on anyone ever saying this?

Or it being said enough to warrant a thread about the -- obvious -- statement "cell animation is often made on the cheap"

There are genuinely people who believe that CGI animation is all the computer's doing and not the painstaking work of a team of artists.

 

[Skii]

So is Pokémon.

That's just a bunch of cgi

 

[Haly]

Then you subjectively haven't seen enough 3D animation.

I love drawn animation as much as the next nerd, but good 3D stuff looks and animates amazingly. This includes all of the subtle stuff like cloth and water movement, bending and stretching of characters, and facial expressions.

I think water rendering is very impressive... as a technological problem. But my emotional response to a simulation algorithm is different than my emotional response to a painting.

It's very difficult for me to divorce the artistic side of CG from the engineering side.

 

[PdotMichael]

The problem with hand drawn vs CG animation discussions is, that CG animations don't look like hand drawn stuff at all and can't replace it. It's basically closer to stop motion clay animation than hand drawn animations.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Reciepts on anyone ever saying this?

Or it being said enough to warrant a thread about the -- obvious -- statement "cell animation is orten made on the cheap"

do people not engage in forum discussion elsewhere or in social media or even in casual talk? the common thing people often speak with regards to low quality animation is "oh because it's cgi/flash/etc" rather than "oh because it's lazy"

People complaining about how ugly DB Super is and use it as argument in a 2D vs. 3D discussion.

Just imagine Toei decided to make DB Super a CG show while providing the same low budget, highly outsourced production and with a similiar weak creative/animation staff.

Doesn't Toei already do its own CGI?

do people think they go from script to storyboard to backgrounds/sets + characters & voices, edits, rewrites, music composition - all that and more sent back and forth between the studio and wherever they're sending it to be animated... in a week's time?

you know what only takes a week to make? SNL. and it shows.

people often forget that there are essentially "budget distribution" towards episodes (i.e. "filler" or less actiony episodes don't get as much budget), and that they forget episodes are done months in advance

That's just a bunch of cgi

uhh no... like no

they even have various cels for this

I don't even watch SM yet know this shit since they had a behind the scenes from XY

 

[MikeyB]

I like the coarseness of hand drawn stuff. The rawness of it. That's probably why I am drawn to Vanillaware, UbiArt (is that the right term?), Ni No Kuni, and even Borderlands over games going for realism.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

My sister is currently studying the tech behind CG animation, and some of the stuff they're doing nowadays is absolutely insane. Even if you make the argument that it's just stuff from a program, someone's got to develop that program and take extreme to care to make it as life-like as possible.

 

[Boss Doggie]

There are genuinely people who believe that CGI animation is all the computer's doing and not the painstaking work of a team of artists.

can't find that gif now or who posted that gif here, but someone in gaf made a post on how "this is how a typical gaffer thinks how cgi is made" and has essentially a shitty model followed by a "press this button" and said shitty model turns into a fully animated clip lmao

what's sad though is that there are people who genuinely think like that

 

[studyguy]

STEP THE FUCK ASIDE PLEBS, FULL CG/3D MODEL ANIME WAS HERE.
Look at these amazing art assets, can you match that?

Thought not.
Checkmate handdrawn plebs.

 

[Chococat]

So is Pokémon.

So you're saying Pokemon never suffers from A,B, and C animation teams? Never suffers from characters being off model? That Pokemon never reuses stock animations? That Pokemon hides "hard" animation (the moving a characters) behind allot of easy to animate special effects? That Pokemon never uses up close face shots with only the mouth and eyes moving for 50% the show? That Pokemon never has a bad looking episode or scene?

People who defend shows always pull out creme of the crop bits, never the whole production. The time put in action scenes cuts from production else where in the shows.

Flip side, people who pick on DBZ either a) pick scene done by the C team animators or b) always freeze frame on tween animations that are not meant to be view frame by frame. No shit, tween frames between key frames are going to look like shit within fast, low cost productions.

I say this as a person who has a small collection of anime cels, including from DBZ.

 

[Haly]

My sister is currently studying the tech behind CG animation, and some of the stuff they're doing nowadays is absolutely insane. Even if you make the argument that it's just stuff from a program, someone's got to develop that program and take extreme to care to make it as life-like as possible.

Yes, but I ask you, do you want your stories to be told via complicated mathematics (which itself carries beauty, certainly) or be told as directly as possible? To me, hand drawn is a closer approximation of what a storyteller imagines in their mind than CG, which is always compromised by the limitations of tech.

 

[Cepheus]

Speaking of hand drawn animation, your avatar kind of looks like a naked version of Were Garurumon pleasuring himself OP lol

I have bad news for you

 

[Haly]

I have bad news for you

 

[Messofanego]

I'll agree it's not about budget.

Waltz with Bashir was animated by "eight animators, four illustrators, one After Effects artist and one editor". It was mostly Flash, but storyboarded and made into animatics first from video footage.

 

[Garlador]

It's definitely not "inherently" superior.

But, I've never been wow'ed by any CGI animation to the same degree that I have been with top quality handdrawn animation.

Watch more Dreamworks.

 

[Divvy]

Yes, but I ask you, do you want your stories to be told via complicated mathematics (which itself carries beauty, certainly) or be told as directly as possible? To me, hand drawn is a closer approximation of what a storyteller imagines in their mind than CG, which is always compromised by the limitations of tech.

Are you under the impression that CG effects are done completely via simulation without artistic input? Regardless if the actual rendering is done by hand or by an algorithm, it still needs to match the artistic vision, not the other way around. CG FX artists have to constantly change and tweak their work to fit what the director envisions the effects to look like down to the placement of every droplet of water.

 

[mr jones]

The problem with hand drawn vs CG animation discussions is, that CG animations don't look like hand drawn stuff at all and can't replace it. It's basically closer to stop motion clay animation than hand drawn animations.

This is objectively false.

It both cinema AND games.

 

[Tekniqs]

Was the saitama/genos fight cgi or handrawn or mixed?

 

[Crossing Eden]

The problem with hand drawn vs CG animation discussions is, that CG animations don't look like hand drawn stuff at all and can't replace it. It's basically closer to stop motion clay animation than hand drawn animations.

This is absolutely dependent on the workflow. There's also the fact that the workflow for 3D in terms of animation resembles 2D much more than stop motion even when you consider that the latter is focused on puppets "like 3D." Take what Glenn Keanne did for instance whenever he would look over shots in Tangled as an example:

 

[PdotMichael]

This is absolutely dependent on the workflow. There's also the fact that the workflow for 3D in terms of animation resembles 2D much more than stop motion even when you consider that the latter is focused on puppets "like 3D." Take what Glenn Keanne did for instance whenever he would look over shots in Tangled as an example:
https://imgur.com/ZR9h65n.gif[IMG]
[IMG]https://imgur.com/9Yk6zJ8.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

It's basically virtual claymotion animations. You are moving objects within a three dimensional space - just that those things are all virtual.
Also claymotion operate with key animations and stuff as well.

 

[Haly]

Are you under the impression that CG effects are done completely via simulation without artistic input? Regardless if the actual rendering is done by hand or by an algorithm, it still needs to match the artistic vision, not the other way around. CG FX artists have to constantly change and tweak their work to fit what the director envisions the effects to look like down to the placement of every droplet of water.

No to the first. As for the second, yes, I understand at the end of the day CG is just a tool, but it's a very complex tool with many intervening steps compared to someone scribbling on a flipbook.

The stuff he mentioned, the really "impressive" stuff like water, cloth, snow, light, all of that comes down to algorithms. And while creative application of algorithms is its own art, it is too technical for me to really appreciate as a vehicle for storytelling.

Even if you make the argument that it's just stuff from a program, someone's got to develop that program and take extreme to care to make it as life-like as possible.

 

[Busaiku]

So you're saying Pokemon never suffers from A,B, and C animation teams? Never suffers from characters being off model? That Pokemon never reuses stock animations? That Pokemon hides "hard" animation (the moving a characters) behind allot of easy to animate special effects? That Pokemon never uses up close face shots with only the mouth and eyes moving for 50% the show? That Pokemon never has a bad looking episode or scene?

People who defend shows always pull out creme of the crop bits, never the whole production. The time put in action scenes cuts from production else where in the shows.

Flip side, people who pick on DBZ either a) pick scene done by the C team animators or b) always freeze frame on tween animations that are not meant to be view frame by frame. No shit, tween frames between key frames are going to look like shit within fast, low cost productions.

I say this as a person who has a small collection of anime cels, including from DBZ.

Pokemon Sun and Moon obviously don't look that phenomenal all the time, but its best is leagues ahead of almost any other year round show.
And it looks like that more often than not.
Here's a gag scene, for instance.

Like here's Ash and Pikachu eating a donut.
That's basically the low points these days.

 

[Unbounded]

They're both two completely different methods of attempting to solve a problem and they both Excel at doing different things. Saying one is better than another is an apples-oranges comparison.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's basically virtual claymotion animations. You are moving objects within a three dimensional space - just that those things are all virtual.
Also claymotion operate with key animations and stuff as well.

I'm speaking from experience, it's genuinely not. The workflows are very very different despite the fact that both involve 3D objects.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Is there a CGI heavy movie that is made to look and feel like some anime back in the days - 80s grit / adult visual style?

I tend to like animation the most if its art style appeals to me, if its technically great to - it becomes unbeatable in my eyes. Akira/lots of Studio Ghibli stuff etc.

 

[Divvy]

It's basically virtual claymotion animations. You are moving objects within a three dimensional space - just that those things are all virtual.
Also claymotion operate with key animations and stuff as well.

But the vast majority of stop motion is done via straight-ahead animation.

The only thing stop motion and CG animation really have in common is the use of models.

Hand drawn, CG and stop motion are so distinct in workflow that they might as well be three corners of a triangle, than three points on a line.

 

[Chococat]

Wish all of Super was like this.

This isn't an example of great animation. This is an example of great story boarding hiding minimal animation behind special effects and shading.

Goku and Freeza hardly move.

• Freeza head shot jiggles
• Quick shot of Freeza fist
• Goku head shot jiggles
• Quick shot of Goku fist
• Pullback shot of lighting effect to symbolize impact
• Non animated shot of Goku head with Freeza fist
• Non animated shot of Freeza head with Goku fist
• Non animated shot of full Freeza and Guku froze n in impact moment.

The only animated parts are the attack lighting and cloud effects. The rest is just jiggling a still frame or dragging two still frames across each other.

There is nothing wrong with it. It serves the purpose of the story, while looking cool, and being cheap (from a bean counter perspective). But it is not "great animation".

 

[Haly]

Is there a CGI heavy movie that is made to look and feel like some anime back in the days - 80s grit / adult visual style?

I tend to like animation the most if its art style appeals to me, if its technically great to - it becomes unbeatable in my eyes. Akira/lots of Studio Ghibli stuff etc.

Try Karas: The Prophecy

There was another one in recent years but I don't remember what it was called.

EDIT: It was Space Captain Harlock (2013)

 

[Chococat]

Pokemon Sun and Moon obviously don't look that phenomenal all the time, but its best is leagues ahead of almost any other year round show.
And it looks like that more often than not.
Here's a gag scene, for instance.

Like here's Ash and Pikachu eating a donut.
That's basically the low points these days.

And your point is? I'm not attacking Pokemon.

I'm a lover of animation and am just pointing out the generalities in production. Don't take my observation as a personal attack on your personal favorite, pokemon, please.

 

[Tuck]

"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is a different claim than "Not all hand drawn animation is good" - the OP focuses on the latter, and that is true. Not all hand drawn animation is good.

But when you compare fantastic hand drawn animation to fantastic CG, I'd take hand drawn any day of the week. I do feel hand drawn has a greater capacity for beauty than CG. Thats not to say CG is bad. Rather, hand drawn is special.

 

[Pein]

Pokemon Sun and Moon obviously don't look that phenomenal all the time, but its best is leagues ahead of almost any other year round show.
And it looks like that more often than not.
Here's a gag scene, for instance.

Like here's Ash and Pikachu eating a donut.
That's basically the low points these days.

Eh Boruto gives it a run for its money
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/40123
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/36163
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/38489

 

[Busaiku]

And your point is? I'm not attacking Pokemon.

My point is that weekly shows can look amazing.

 

[juicyb]

I prefer 2D over 3D and believe that 2D ages much better than 3D art. Went back and watched the original Toy Story and man it looks dated.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I prefer 2D over 3D and believe that 2D ages much better than 3D art. Went back and watched the original Toy Story and man it looks dated.

I think that's just because of how early it was made. Legend of the Guardians (the owl movie) still looks spectacular from the GIFs here, and that came out 7 years ago. The aging effect greatly diminishes after the early years of CGI films.

I hardly imagine people 20 years from now will say Moana looks terrible.

 

[Edwardo]

I've been watching the super dub and I really miss how dbz looked.

 

[hipbabboom]

OP, if you are going to be accurate with your examples, compare them with their contemporaries from the time with the other animation styles. I'm sure you can almost always make a contrarian statement seem true by comparing two extremes.