DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
exactly - not sure how we ended up having this exchange as we are clearly on the same page! lol
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Miyamoto: The 'PS Vita Isn't A Very Strong Product'
- Thread starter pramath
- Start date
exactly - not sure how we ended up having this exchange as we are clearly on the same page! lol
SkylineRKR
Member
If Vita was a strong product, it would indeed sell. Truth is, the Vita has no real identity on top of that as well. They are all fine games but none of them screams killer app.
The sole problem the 3DS had was that it was too expensive in combination with a weak launch lineup. But buying a 3DS in anticipation of great software wasn't a bad decision. Nintendo's support never let handhelds down and everyone could guess that an upcoming Pokemon, Mario Kart or Mario platform game would skyrocket its appeal regardless.
In case of the Vita this is much less sure. Sony has no single franchise that would sell like those games mentioned above. No, also not GT and no Uncharted as well. A pricedrop would probably move more systems but it would eventually run dry because of the software not having legs. The next games I'm looking into buying are Gravity and Resistance, but I'm willing to bet that the results of those won't propel above niche.
I'm also wondering if gamers would really run to the store to buy CoD for Vita? Given that the CoD crowd must be HD console gamers...
The sole problem the 3DS had was that it was too expensive in combination with a weak launch lineup. But buying a 3DS in anticipation of great software wasn't a bad decision. Nintendo's support never let handhelds down and everyone could guess that an upcoming Pokemon, Mario Kart or Mario platform game would skyrocket its appeal regardless.
In case of the Vita this is much less sure. Sony has no single franchise that would sell like those games mentioned above. No, also not GT and no Uncharted as well. A pricedrop would probably move more systems but it would eventually run dry because of the software not having legs. The next games I'm looking into buying are Gravity and Resistance, but I'm willing to bet that the results of those won't propel above niche.
I'm also wondering if gamers would really run to the store to buy CoD for Vita? Given that the CoD crowd must be HD console gamers...
The PSP sold better than the Xbox 360. The last official numbers were 71.4 Million units sold (as of September last year). The Xbox 360 is currently at about 67.2 Million (as of April this year).
I'm pretty sure the Vita won't sell nearly as well.
I would wager that the vast majority of people who play CoD on HD consoles feel no pressing need for that kind of experience on the go.
fabricated backlash
Member
Yet he presents his opinion with a line of well presented facts and observations. Most of what can't be said about those who dismiss his claim with:
Lol Miyamoto sucks.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
I disagree on this one point - GT is huge, the PSP game was an absolute failure because it was so abjectly poor.
A true GT experience tailored for handhelds (i.e. with a well thought out leveling structure with lots of short licensing challenges and snappy race challenges coupled with meatier "at home" challenges) -could- set the world on fire.
The mindset Sony have to get into is that franchises need to be tailored to the nature of handheld gaming - replicating the home experience on a handheld is only a fraction of the battle.
fixed
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Even after 2 Mario games and 80$ price cut, the 3DS is under-preforming and did not take off in the west. Some people need to distinguish between Japan and rest of the world.
I highly doubt even that's true. People are hardly demanding a portable GT. Simulation racers and handhelds are a terrible fit imo.
The keyword "could" is still there
I do agree that a lot of GT gameplay mechanics aren't gonna work as a handheld game, like endurance races, 10 laps races etc. They should just make more championships with 3 laps races and of course keep the arcade mode in there for quick races, time trials etc. A save function after a race during a championship is handy too.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
No. GTPSP sold well and the software in the west was almost dead. GTPSP sold 3.6 million so late into the PSP´s life cycle. GT would set the world on fire if it came early enough like next year at the latest.
Lagspike_exe
Member
Whether a game or not is a fit for a handheld is really up to the design of the game itself. There are some games that you can't just port to the handheld, so in that case devs should really just leverage the IP and completely tailor the game to the target hardware.
If CoD Vita is a straight port it most likely won't have monster sales. If they create a fresh and inovative experience for the handheld it may end up great. But this is Treyarch, so don't expect much.
If CoD Vita is a straight port it most likely won't have monster sales. If they create a fresh and inovative experience for the handheld it may end up great. But this is Treyarch, so don't expect much.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
it's all to do with tailoring the experience. My reaction to a portable Monster hunter after sinking 600+ hours into MH1 + MH2 was "why the hell would anyone want to play this on a handheld?!"
Also - i doubt anyone sits around asking for the next big thing - we just don't know where it is coming from , it's all to do with fitting to the experience and there is no reason why a GT couldn't be , at least, a great experience on the Vita.
That's part of the problem with the Vita strategy, I think. It's meant to play a lot of PS3 games on the go, but as I said in an earlier post I don't think most people like to run out and buy hardware to play software that they can play on something they already own. The Vita seems like a device that most people that would want it probaly already have a 360/PS3. The Vita needs more exclusive games only on Vita, not games only on PS3 and Vita.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Huh? It´s not a problem. It´s a huge asset if used correctly. If people can play COD on the PS3 and continue leveling up on the Vita. It would be huge. It would sell more COD games and it would sell Vita.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Why would you even buy a 3DS if you weren't interested in Mario Land, Kart, Revelations and so on?
Europe would care, obviously. Huge? Don't think so, I'm a huuuge GT fan** and I wouldn't care. It would obviously propel Vita hardware tho, in all three regions in a way an Uncharted game can't do, but I doubt it would skyrocket sales.
**
Would that not hurt the Wii-U aswell, since most will already be able to play games like Batman AC, Aliens CM, and Darksiders 2 on their current gen consoles?
But strong Japan sales can float the market enough to ensure Dev support. Not even clinching decent numbers in Japan for Vita is not good as it would show that NO market is buying.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Yes it will. Those will be side wishes, needed to instill confidence in the machine for potential buyers, where exclusives will seal or breake the deal. WiiU won't be defined by those games, whereas at the moment Vita is defined by that kind of experience (PS3 on the go).
Phoenician_Viking said:
People care about that because that's how you secure software support by 3rd parties, considering that 90% of what matters in the portable space comes out of Japan.
It's a benefit but it can't be the main draw like it seems to be, the 3DS would still be doing squat in the US if SM3DL and MK7 were available in console form, some people would have got them for their 3DS sure, but people that had a Wii wouldn't have felt compelled to pay the money it costs to get a new device if they could have bought it for another device.
All I'm saying is you need exclusive software to move the hardware intially, and you know get the install base, a lot of people don't want to or can't afford to pay 60+40+250 when they can just pay 60$ and be done with it. It's a great feature, I'm just saying the Vita needs games that people can't get on any other platform so they feel compeled to own a Vita just so they can play "that" game, once they run out and buy a Vita for "that" game they can't get for their PS3 then they will figure they might as well pick up CoD too.
I just did a big post on the last page about how the Wii U launch lineup is a concern for Nintendo if they don't have multiple exclusives to build an install base at launch, it's literally just what you said. So yes, your right.
Not at the current price.
The draw of a Nintendo console is always the first party line up.
From what we've seen so far, I don't think the Vita can handle a straight-up PS3 game. It's super powerful but having that constant comparison to the PS3 is a bad move i m o. It's almost there but not quite so the ports will always suffer. Better to just have original Vita games from scratch that take full advantage of that beautiful hardware.
plagiarize
Banned
GT would be huge, you have to be mad to think other wise, but it's clearly not a magic bullet. Monster Hunter driving the PSPs later success in Japan showed that a system can turn around after being out for years, and GT didn't do that for the PSP in the rest of the world.
it's usually the case that the game which becomes THE defining game is one that isn't already closely associated with other systems. if the PSVita gets one, it isn't likely to be something that we think of as a big franchise today, if it's even a franchise that exists yet.
MH on PSP, COD 4 on 360, GTA 3 on PS2, and so on and so on. these things are incredibly hard to predict and incredibly hard to master.
GT is huge, but it's not a sure thing in terms of establishing a system. i hope the Vita finds it's defining game.
it's usually the case that the game which becomes THE defining game is one that isn't already closely associated with other systems. if the PSVita gets one, it isn't likely to be something that we think of as a big franchise today, if it's even a franchise that exists yet.
MH on PSP, COD 4 on 360, GTA 3 on PS2, and so on and so on. these things are incredibly hard to predict and incredibly hard to master.
GT is huge, but it's not a sure thing in terms of establishing a system. i hope the Vita finds it's defining game.
JasoNsider
Member
el oh el @ 50% of the thread just reading that flame-bait version of the article without original context.
In any case, we can once again boil all this down to one simple fact - great games are the most important, and sometimes the only important thing to gamers. Titles like Mario 3D Land and Kid Icarus Uprising alone are titles worthy of every gamer's attention across the board. These aren't just platform defining titles but new experiences and just plain quality gaming that any self respecting, fun-loving player needs to try. Vita doesn't really have any software that feels like this just yet, but if 5 great games like them came out you can bet we'd all start snatching up Vitas to play them.
Great games. It's a much simpler concept than most analysts make it out to be.
In any case, we can once again boil all this down to one simple fact - great games are the most important, and sometimes the only important thing to gamers. Titles like Mario 3D Land and Kid Icarus Uprising alone are titles worthy of every gamer's attention across the board. These aren't just platform defining titles but new experiences and just plain quality gaming that any self respecting, fun-loving player needs to try. Vita doesn't really have any software that feels like this just yet, but if 5 great games like them came out you can bet we'd all start snatching up Vitas to play them.
Great games. It's a much simpler concept than most analysts make it out to be.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
That´s a fair point.
I really believe the primary and most important thing that that pushed the 3DS in the west was the 80$ price cut and not Mario games. I think it´s like that because the Mario games should still be able to push the 3DS, but it´s not working for them.
Why not? If Apple/Android can sell Idevices/Androids at a much higher price Sony could sell the Vita at 250$. Yes, yes, i know that Sony is not Apple and Vita is not Idevice or Android, but that´s exactly the point. It´s distinguished the Vita by its cross platform playability and connectivity. If leveraged correctly by Sony and third party developers, it could be really huge. And no, it´s not the same as the PSP since the Vita has a better online than the PS3.
plagiarize
Banned
it's incredibly difficult to *make* them happen though. i'm totally pulling for the Vita to give me a couple of reasons to buy one mind, but right now I don't feel like I'm missing much by not having one. I say that as someone who has owned every major portable and console released after the dreamcast (was PC exclusive before then). hell, I still play on my PSP Go.
A huge amount of people are willing to spend big money for an iDevice because it does a ton of things very well and has an app store full of varied and low priced software. That's a big deal.
Being able to play PS3 games while you're out simply isn't that big a deal to the mainstream gamer. Not something that's worth $250 + memory card + additional copy of the game, at any rate.
I think he was implying that it defines the system as bad. Not quite sarcasm, but entirely full of snark.
The price cut was huge, yes. The 3DS didn't have any software at launch though, and it got people (like me) intially turned against it, Nintendo basically needed a price cut or Mario games and it got both, to give it some life, and yes I do agree with you that with both it should actually be doing even better then it is. If however the 3DS could have launched with the Mario games or launched at 80$ cheaper but with no Mario it would have done better with the higher price and Mario, because there was simply no game that was reason enough to really get one, no matter how cheap it was.
I do agree with you a decent amount except the fact that your saying the Vita should sell at 250$ but the 3DS needed a price cut, the 3DS needed a price cut because they didn't have enough good exclusive system moving games at launch, so there wasn't enough incentive to buy one, same problem the Vita has. The Vita definetly is gonna need at least a 50$ price cut if they can't release a big Vita exclusive game soon, Vita needs a "I gotta have it" game or it's not worth 250$ to the average consumer, because the Vita is meant first and foremost to play videos games, like the 3DS, and unlike Apple products.
I love my PS3, I use it more then any of my consoles, I also love MLB The Show, the game that gets more Vita ads then any other, and yes that is a little bit of a problem. There is no need for me to run out and grab a Vita if their most attractive game is one I aleady have, and thier will be the same problem with any cross-platform game until they have "that" game that gets people to grab a Vita, because once they do have "that" game then games like CoD will do great on the Vita, but if their not going to have "that" game then they need it to be cheaper.
Man I laughed WAY too hard at the bolded part.
And people wonder why juniors often get mocked.
Cygnus X-1
Member
It is interesting that the problems Vita is experiencing right now are fundamentally not too different compared to the problems 3DS had last year, i.e. price and games.
Sony in the first place needs to figure out what they want to do with their system. As simple as it could sound, you can't send a handheld to the market without supporting it with a believable line-up. What I'm mostly concerned especially is that - outside the fact that the launch-line up was diversified, but without killer-apps - and that's common belief here on GAF - Sony doesn't seem to have a long term strategy with their system. Failing at launch for tight schedule is not something who rarely happens. Even Nintendo is expert at missing this opportunity regularly. But failing in the medium term is something more unusual.
Nintendo, on the other hand, got a picture of the situation quite fast and acted consequently: they dropped the price like a rock and brought the explosive duo Mario Kart and Mario Land. Additionally, they made agreement with Capcom to bring out at the right moment Monster Hunter 3G. A perfect storm indeed. Especially in Japan.
Back to Sony's problem, again - I agree on this subject that a merely price cut would partly help the system - it would make for instance the system more competitive - , but wouldn't solve all the problems of course. Vita needs games AND a price cut and just the combination of both factors can make the difference. Again, like 3DS last year indeed. But now that the Monster Hunter franchise migrated on 3DS things are getting even more difficult. Sony needs a killer-app and unfortunately they can't compensate with some first party output since it never was a top priority for Sony with PSP. They didn't need it in fact, since third party support was the key for PSP and before, for PS2 and PS.
With PSP, Sony was able to find such a killer app - but let's face it - it was quite fortunate - and less of a planned result. Though it has to be said that outside Monster Hunter - which surprised everyone - Sony launched a system that had foresaw lot of third party support.
What I mean with that is that at PSP's launch and beyond one could see they had a strategy for supporting the handheld in the long term.
But again - and this is surprising - Sony with Vita is not convincing at this stage and, new thing, they are not persuasive enough to lure third party games backing the handheld - a factor that was way different with PSP and that eventually made the difference. Especially in Japan.
Becoming successful worldwide will be extremely difficult. Even Nintendo is facing big challenges in US and EU markets, due to the changes of tastes of the mass market in favor of facebook and smartphones. But at least they're trying and they're trying hard. And things got better than before, preventing thus the handheld to fail completely. Lot of games are foresaw and quite a lot of third party games - though in the west we'll rely for now on Iwata's word till E3. Exclusives like Monster Hunter 3G and 4 are coming now to 3DS and all big franchises that made the difference on DS are getting a sequel. These sequels already are out, or are coming this fall/early next year.
Said otherwise, the schedule of 3DS is packed and convincing. A thing that as of today cannot be said for Vita, though the system itself is a fantastic piece of hardware and has lot of convincing features that are especially oriented to compete against the smartphones market. That's why I say the value is there. It is, but it is not exploited with planned synergy.
The point is that as of today Nintendo clearly is serious to defend the handheld with all means. Sony, instead, lacks the necessary aggressive behavior to convince the average consumer that Vita is a big deal.
Exactly. They're a long way from the aggressiveness and strategical foresight they showed in the PS2 era.
walking fiend
Member
Not that they 'can' have the same experience on the go; I am pretty positive not only mobile internet, but many public places wi-fis will not be suitable for online gaming requiring low ping
That too. What's the point of buying portable CoD for grinding when you can only do so around the house?
JasoNsider
Member
Yeah I couldn't tell if that was sarcastic or not either. It is a defining title. The game is incredible.
I don't see how COD would work on Vita at all especially those talking about playing against players on the Ps3.
I haven't played a COD game in a while, but I think the reason that so many people play it is because of the control setup like having to push in the analogue to run. And I'm pretty sure that it uses every single button on the controller.
Stuff like running would not work on the Vita since you can't push in the analogue sticks so I find it stupid that people here expect that anyone is going to want to play the Vita version when one of the key things of the COD franchise is the controls.
I haven't played a COD game in a while, but I think the reason that so many people play it is because of the control setup like having to push in the analogue to run. And I'm pretty sure that it uses every single button on the controller.
Stuff like running would not work on the Vita since you can't push in the analogue sticks so I find it stupid that people here expect that anyone is going to want to play the Vita version when one of the key things of the COD franchise is the controls.
From what I've seen it does have L3 and R3. Correct me if i'm wrong, I don't own a Vita.
gamergirly
Member
Yeah, it does make you wonder how many of those exclusives will be "time limited". As in you would expect them on Sony and Microsoft's machines next year, etc. But if Nintendo has a strong enough online setup and following, it may not matter
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
This isn't really correct, 3DS is still outperforming DS in the west as well. Also Mario Kart 7 and Mario 3D Land are vastly outperforming Mario Kart DS and Mario 64 DS in the west.
After 5 NPDs
Super Mario 64 DS: 949,000
Super Mario 3D Land: 1,980,000
After 4 NPDs
Mario Kart DS: 875,000
Mario Kart 7: 1,580,000
I don't really expect any time-exclusives, in fact if they launch in November they will get some games a little late (like Darksiders 2), which is why I have always said they need to launch by September, but signs aren't pointing that way right now.
What Nintendo needs is what the Vita and 3DS lacked, big exclusive games at launch and they are going to have to be first-party. Once someone decides to buy a new piece of hardware because X game is only on it, then people will say "I might as well get AC3 on Wii U since I just bought it this new console" but they need that attractive first-party game to draw them in first, or they'll just buy AC3 on their other console that is already payed for.
Para bailar La Bomba
Banned
Word to your mother.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I wonder if he thought the same thing when the 3DS had nothing (clearly not the case as of a while ago). They are both basically doing the same thing except one has 3D and the other is powerful.
British Monsoon
Member
After the 3DS launch came the inevitable summer lull of games, and it was all doom and gloom for the system on the forums, then the big titles started coming out and it's fortunes changed.
Sometimes it feels like we're on repeat, so perhaps we should wait to see what Sony has in store for the holiday season, rather than waste time dooming and glooming?
Sometimes it feels like we're on repeat, so perhaps we should wait to see what Sony has in store for the holiday season, rather than waste time dooming and glooming?
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
It will always be like this for Vita. Some seem to just want it to fail. It's all over the internet. It could have a solid lineup this fall and next year but it would still get put through the coals still. It will likely be another PSP situation in which it's a slow burner until it hits a better entry price with some Japan centric games. Luckily this year is looking pretty strong with the fall lineup.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
And? The fact is that the 3DS did not live up to Nintendo´s expectation twice says otherwise. Nintendo had to lower their expectations twice and it still came under those expectations. To say under preformed is very correct statement.