Advocatus Diaboli
Member
Disclose all foreign contacts. This matters. (Well, it depends on the level of the background check, if it's a cleared position, and if it's OPM or an IC element investigating.)
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Law School & Lawyer GAF
- Thread starter SD-Ness
- Start date
Disclose all foreign contacts. This matters. (Well, it depends on the level of the background check, if it's a cleared position, and if it's OPM or an IC element investigating.)
If this helps at all, from USAJobs.gov, the position lists "SECURITY CLEARANCE: Public Trust - Background Investigation".
The position is with the Department of Education, not DoD or DHS or the like.
EDIT: from a quick glance at all available DOE postings, attorney or otherwise, all list the same clearance level.
Advocatus Diaboli
Member
Yeah, don't worry too much, then! The feds probably won't be knocking on your door for this. It's probably just a credit check and public records check.
Thanks, that's good to hear. From what I've heard it's a slow process even without an in-depth investigation. I've got nothing to hide but I would definitely prefer if the investigation didn't involve trying to find old neighbors in NYC, friends and family, interviewing all the past employers, etc.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Yeah, I think you're going to be ok with a doe position. Good luck!
GoldenEye 007
Member
So I think I'm going to sit for the September LSAT. It's one of those things where people and now other lawyers in my interactions with them always say I approach things like a lawyer. And it's something I've always had in the back of my mind.
I also for some reason like researching and interpreting policy, reading arcane rules, applying those best I can, etc. I've never experienced the depth and level of policies that I would expect in the legal profession, but yeah.
And I'm also non-traditional in that I'm working full-time(in higher ed administration), have a masters (in higher ed), and have been away from undergrad for a few years now. So I really don't have tons of pressure regarding getting into law school, but it's one of things I feel like I should explore. I'd want to use the JD to get into more advanced positions in higher ed(senior admin, gen counsel, etc.), which granted is something the masters will help with anyway outside of counsel. Or I'd want to work in policy - anything from access to civil rights, etc. I'm also open to other areas of law, but I don't know what I would really be good in. IP is intriguing and I feel is a major area given the realities of the economy, but I don't have a technical background. International because of the rise of global trade agreements, etc. So there's that.
Basically if I felt I got a good enough score, and it'd have to be in the 170 range, I'd seriously have a decision to make. Likely traditional 3 year program meaning quitting my job. Part-time seems like it would be difficult to network, etc. Otherwise, at least I know. I'd basically look at schools in Texas - SMU, UH, UT(for giggles) in that order and call it a day.
I also for some reason like researching and interpreting policy, reading arcane rules, applying those best I can, etc. I've never experienced the depth and level of policies that I would expect in the legal profession, but yeah.
And I'm also non-traditional in that I'm working full-time(in higher ed administration), have a masters (in higher ed), and have been away from undergrad for a few years now. So I really don't have tons of pressure regarding getting into law school, but it's one of things I feel like I should explore. I'd want to use the JD to get into more advanced positions in higher ed(senior admin, gen counsel, etc.), which granted is something the masters will help with anyway outside of counsel. Or I'd want to work in policy - anything from access to civil rights, etc. I'm also open to other areas of law, but I don't know what I would really be good in. IP is intriguing and I feel is a major area given the realities of the economy, but I don't have a technical background. International because of the rise of global trade agreements, etc. So there's that.
Basically if I felt I got a good enough score, and it'd have to be in the 170 range, I'd seriously have a decision to make. Likely traditional 3 year program meaning quitting my job. Part-time seems like it would be difficult to network, etc. Otherwise, at least I know. I'd basically look at schools in Texas - SMU, UH, UT(for giggles) in that order and call it a day.
If it was 170, I don't know why you focus on places like SMU and UH, that is far above the median at those schools. It is also a bit above UT.
In my experience, that's what law school is like, but not necessarily what practicing law is like. I guess it will depend on what type of law you want to do. For me, it's nothing like that at all, but of course, I do corporate law type work.
Just think long and hard about what you want to do, and if you need a JD to get there. School is really expensive and being a lawyer is not for everyone. Many of my friends would skip law school if they could go back in time. And, of course, the job market can be pretty brutal. Just google about going to law school and you'll see a lot of horror stories.
Also - you don't need a technical background to do IP. Well, you do if you want to do patent prosecution, but otherwise, you don't.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Trust me, that's probably my ceiling given undergrad. It's dogshit. And I'm not talking 3.2 dogshit. I would be banking on a strong LSAT like I mentioned, time since undergrad, work, and at least going to grad school. I'm also URM, which I guess I'll shamlessly use to my "advantage" here. Ultimately if I couldn't get into one of those, I'd just kill the idea fully and move on.
Yeah I definitely have time to make a decision and research more. And also aware of the state of the profession. It's why I wouldnt consider just any program just because I got in. I wouldn't even enroll until fall 2017 at the soonest. I feel like on an type of work level it would be a good fit, but yeah I'd need a more defined pathway or pathways I would be comfortable with. Be it within education or crossing into technology or global litigation which I do find intriguing. There would also have to be a specific set of conditions for me to make the move, as stated above, including likelihood of scholarships.
God speed.
If you choose to go to law school, go to either (1) a Tier One school if you can make the money work, OR (2) the best rated school in the geographic region you plan on practicing in.
God speed.
Look for law schools with admissions profiles that show the committees there (over)value work experience after undergrad. Among the T14, Northwestern is notorious for wanting students at least a few years removed from college.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Yeah I have noticed that. Just not sure if I'd want to put down roots in Chicago. Unless it is easier to move around a bit afterwards.
But yeah I've seen more emphasis for work experience for part time programs too. But I'd be concerned with the added time/expense(even if I could work) plus the potential lack of networking opportunities/involvement.
I think this weekend I'll take the diagnostic and start going from there.
LowEndTorque
Member
So I've signed my life over to (Canadian) big law. Will be doing corporate/commercial litigation.
In Canada the process to get admitted to the bar is a lot more onerous than in the U.S. It takes a minimum of one year of brutal work after you graduate before you're allowed to be called to the bar. After you graduate, you have to "article", i.e. work for a full year under the supervision of experienced lawyers at a law firm (or government/in-house). This is in addition to graduating law school, passing the bar exam and taking and passing a bunch of courses imposed by the provincial bar society.
Over the years, articling has developed into a rite of passage (that is almost like hazing at some firms) where you get worked to death and are basically every lawyer's bitch. Think Louis Litt's associate pit.
Anyhow, I've finally ticked off all the boxes a year after graduating, got my offer and accepted it.
In Canada the process to get admitted to the bar is a lot more onerous than in the U.S. It takes a minimum of one year of brutal work after you graduate before you're allowed to be called to the bar. After you graduate, you have to "article", i.e. work for a full year under the supervision of experienced lawyers at a law firm (or government/in-house). This is in addition to graduating law school, passing the bar exam and taking and passing a bunch of courses imposed by the provincial bar society.
Over the years, articling has developed into a rite of passage (that is almost like hazing at some firms) where you get worked to death and are basically every lawyer's bitch. Think Louis Litt's associate pit.
Anyhow, I've finally ticked off all the boxes a year after graduating, got my offer and accepted it.
stn
Member
Hey, congrats!!!! Which province?
Damn, as the creator of this thread, I can't believe it's still going. Glad to see that people have been using it.
Possibly the most belated update in the world. But I took a few years off after undergrad. Im currently a student at one of the NYC schools. Looking forward to my summer job: in-house at a financial firm.
Possibly the most belated update in the world. But I took a few years off after undergrad. Im currently a student at one of the NYC schools. Looking forward to my summer job: in-house at a financial firm.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
Just received the news I was accepted to start an internship at a pretty good law firm in the summer. I'm based in Europe so it's civil law and I won't ask questions since most of you are US based.
Anyway, it's a firm specialized in tax law, insolvency, administrative and criminal law. I'm pretty psyched since the job market here is in the shitter (as is in most developed countries right now) and I was expecting to have some difficulties landing a gig anywhere let alone in a reputable firm. I also fully expect to be a scrub for the entirety of the internship, running around doing whatever is asked of me...It'll be my first steps in corporate hell.
If this goes well, it might open some doors for me so wish me luck. Here goes to becoming a miserable lawyer like so many others!
Anyway, it's a firm specialized in tax law, insolvency, administrative and criminal law. I'm pretty psyched since the job market here is in the shitter (as is in most developed countries right now) and I was expecting to have some difficulties landing a gig anywhere let alone in a reputable firm. I also fully expect to be a scrub for the entirety of the internship, running around doing whatever is asked of me...It'll be my first steps in corporate hell.
If this goes well, it might open some doors for me so wish me luck. Here goes to becoming a miserable lawyer like so many others!
http://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/breaking-ny-to-180k-cravath-raises-associate-base-salaries/
Good news for some. 180k is a nice salary out of law school. Many other big law firms will likely match it.
Personally, I stopped practicing law in the traditional sense as an associate so this likely won't affect me... although I do work in very big law firm. But I have many friends who will find this to be great news.
Good news for some. 180k is a nice salary out of law school. Many other big law firms will likely match it.
Personally, I stopped practicing law in the traditional sense as an associate so this likely won't affect me... although I do work in very big law firm. But I have many friends who will find this to be great news.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
it's that time of the year when summer associates roll in!
Taking a bar prep course? If you're dedicated and want to do it yourself, then you can try Ameribar: http://ameribar.com/
Since this is your first bar exam and you're doing it part time at night, I'd get started sooner rather than later.
I had not decided yet.
Full disclosure I took the bar in February of last year (I had enough credits to sit in Indiana), but due to work I wasn't able to put the time into the course. Annoyingly I was incredibly close, but my state essay scores weren't sufficient. MBE and MPT were fine.
ZackieChan
Member
Bar prep was basically a full time job for me, so I dunno. Study your ass off for a few months.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
If you've already taken it once then you should have a good idea of where you came up short. You can take a class that focuses specifically on the areas you need the most help in, and spend less time on the areas where you have a good handle on things already. If you performed well on the MBE then you probably know the law well enough, you just need some help writing effective essays and possibly some state law ins and outs. So instead of a bar prep course that will go over contracts and torts again, try finding a tutor that will grade essays and give you feedback.
Jag
Member
Pretty much. Approach it as a full time job, at least for the month before the test. You really don't want to have to take it again.
So I've been a graduate clerk for like six months now and maaaaaaan i still don't fucking know what's happening half the time but people are treating me like I know what I'm doing and jesus fuck I'm spending 75% of my time flipping the fuck out.
(Australian/NSW jurisdiction)
about 4 weeks into Practical Legal Training and it's pretty breezy so far. Boss signed off my mandatory work experience form.
mostly just doing filing, delivering briefs and being yelled at for not filenoting things correctly tho
(Australian/NSW jurisdiction)
about 4 weeks into Practical Legal Training and it's pretty breezy so far. Boss signed off my mandatory work experience form.
mostly just doing filing, delivering briefs and being yelled at for not filenoting things correctly tho
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Sounds more-or-less normal to me. One of my students ended up doing law in Australia (mostly contractual, mostly in Queensland, mostly Federal stuff). Not land law anyway, because Australian land law is weird with a capital W.
Live it and enjoy it!
Mr. Giggles
Member
Hey guys, quick question - my girl friend got laid off and in the termination clause it reads:
My question to you is if her company only gives her two weeks​ notice, do they have to pay her for the remaining other two weeks or can they just not pay
My question to you is if her company only gives her two weeks​ notice, do they have to pay her for the remaining other two weeks or can they just not pay
ZackieChan
Member
Not sure if any lawyer worth their salt would give you a definitive answer based on only one clause out of a whole agreement, or knowing the full circumstances (maybe there was an arguable material breach?).
What does her notice say?
I would guess that they owe her the rest of the 30 day notice period.
LowEndTorque
Member
Anyone have any experience/advice on dealing with burnout?
Just entered my 2nd year as a litigation associate in a "big law" Canadian firm. I love the work. Love the people I work with. But the demands, pressure, stress and overwhelming workload are already starting to get to me big time after only one year in.
Just entered my 2nd year as a litigation associate in a "big law" Canadian firm. I love the work. Love the people I work with. But the demands, pressure, stress and overwhelming workload are already starting to get to me big time after only one year in.
stn
Member
No-one is going to advise you just based on one paragraph taken out of a whole contract. Also, which jurisdiction are we talking? My jurisdiction, for example, has mandatory minimums related to notice that are coded in legislation.
ZackieChan
Member
I'm a solo attorney that doesn't work all that much (by choice), so I have basically the opposite experience. However, I did write a law review article about things like burnout and compassion fatigue, and I know it can be a real bitch. Look up self-care for lawyers - you need to be doing things to keep your body and mind healthy. That needs to be a priority, even more important than the work. This is the kind of shit that leads to drug addiction and alcoholism, so I would say you should take it very seriously!
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Anybody have any advice for an incoming law school student?
Hello Law GAF. I was thinking of making a new thread for this but thought I'd try here.
I basically have two options for my graduate school.
-UH Law, part time. It's a four year program, something like $27K a year, which I will need to take out loans. Classes are 6-9 (at night) since it's a part time program, but there are some semesters where you are taking 11 hours which is so close to full time anyway...
-Georgia Tech CompSci masters - I currently work in IT so its relevant to my job. But I hate my job...The entire program is only 7K. Because it's online, it allows me to be more flexible with time and I can take it easy and only take one class a semester or something if I need to.
The thing that's really worrying me is basically losing all my free time. I will be working full time regardless to support my family/financial needs. That's an 8-5 or 7-4 job on top of going to school. I'm also worried about the debt I'd take on from law school. I have a background in engineering so I am told I do not have to worry like others do about getting a job but I do not know how true that is...
I basically have two options for my graduate school.
-UH Law, part time. It's a four year program, something like $27K a year, which I will need to take out loans. Classes are 6-9 (at night) since it's a part time program, but there are some semesters where you are taking 11 hours which is so close to full time anyway...
-Georgia Tech CompSci masters - I currently work in IT so its relevant to my job. But I hate my job...The entire program is only 7K. Because it's online, it allows me to be more flexible with time and I can take it easy and only take one class a semester or something if I need to.
The thing that's really worrying me is basically losing all my free time. I will be working full time regardless to support my family/financial needs. That's an 8-5 or 7-4 job on top of going to school. I'm also worried about the debt I'd take on from law school. I have a background in engineering so I am told I do not have to worry like others do about getting a job but I do not know how true that is...
Random Painted HIghway
Member
UH being houston? I know a ton of uh grads including night school that have done really well for themselves. The market here is not nearly as saturated as the other large markets. Not easy by any stretch, but opportunities are here for graduates from that university.
Do practice exams, and make your summaries immediately after class with a bit of review and you'll be a-ok for the exams. And don't bother memorizing/summarizing every case - you'll waste all your time that way. Just remember what they stand for and a little bit about the facts.
Do this and law school is a breeze once you get used to it.
What are your prospects following law school? Do you have any ins with a firm that you expect you can leverage or other options that are fairly secure? Why are you interested in law? Is that interest sufficient if you find yourself ~$110K in debt at the end of law school without any good prospects?
What are your options with the Georgia Tech degree? I've heard of it, but I haven't heard of any results. Online degrees make it harder to network, which is some of what you are getting in schooling programs.
Have you compared what you make now vs what you are likely to make in your favored field of law?
The loss of free time wasn't so bad if you enjoy the subject matter, but you will have less free time, that is unavoidable.
Plus in order to practice law you will have to pass the bar and it has been particularly rough going in my state on evening students with a recent pass rate of less than 25%, but YMMV.
I was an evening student so I had to square the above questions against another masters program.
Good luck.
Yup, Houston
I don't have any specific firm or anyone I know at a specific firm. I have lots of contacts in the non profit community, but I do not want to start in non profit because I'd likely be making less than I do now. I'm interested in law because I'm interested in public policy, civil rights, immigration, etc because of my own background as an immigrant. The school is pushing IP law on me hard, as are any lawyers I've talked to for advice, because I have an engineering undergrad and worked as an engineer for some time. Since this is more lucrative it could help me pay off my debt. I am very debt averse is the problem, and while I'm getting tons of offers for scholarships at other schools, UH isn't offering me one.
Yes there will be less opportunity for networking with an online masters which I have thought about...
Can I ask which masters program and what ultimately led you to your decision?
Jeels--
Glad you checked this thread out. Don't let the school--or anyone else--push you into doing something you don't want to do.
Is there any chance that UH will offer money? Because I completely hear you about being debt adverse, and law school is nothing if it's not expensive. If not, where are the other schools at who are tossing money at you? One thing I would keep in mind, though, about scholarships, is not to start anywhere you're not willing to finish by taking out loans to pay for it. I know at UA, where I went to law school, about half of the class had scholarships 1L year, with the requirement of being in the top 1/3 of the class to keep your scholarship. So you can see what happened with those numbers...
smokeymicpot
Beat EviLore at pool.
I have a lawyer question if anyone can help. My father passed away Monday. I was not close to him because he skipped out on me when I was 5 or so. Anyway he was in the a biker gang. So I am not sure what happens. They are planning the funeral and everything. He owed a ton in child support. He got remarried never got fully divorced from his third wife. Also found out he had another son this week but no one is in contact with him. My mom is in the process of looking for a lawyer and what are the odds of me actually getting anything he owned?
TangoAlphaLima
Member
I'm guessing he probably didn't have a will, so his estate will pass through probate. Look up the probate laws in the state where he resided, the contents of his estate will be distributed according to the state law if no will exists.
Try a resource like Martindale-Hubbell for finding a probate lawyer. Specifically look for one that seems to have a primary practice in probate, not a jack-of-all-trades that only does a little bit of probate work.
Best advice I can give you is to do something that you enjoy. You're in a great location to practice the type of law you're interested in, and you should have plenty of alumni support in your area to help you in your job search.
I will say that going to school part-time/only at night could impact your job search prospects, especially if you're unable to take summer clerkships. Just something to consider.