Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
KAOS 
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List of studios closed since 2006
- Thread starter Kifimbo
- Start date
Dark Octave
Banned
Red Octane? Just a few years ago they had the hottest franchise on the market. Now they're closed down?
I didn't even know we had a list like this. Thank God we do. But it does not do us any good if it is being constantly updated but never bumped so people can see it.
Someone should print out t-shirts, with the most up to date lists, and sell them in order to promote awareness of how dangerously close the current console game developing model is to becoming completely unsustainable.
Someone should print out t-shirts, with the most up to date lists, and sell them in order to promote awareness of how dangerously close the current console game developing model is to becoming completely unsustainable.
Quoting from another thread.
It's okay, guys. We shouldn't care because we've still got great devs like Treyarch and EA's crappy internal studios churning out high quality software.
It's okay, guys. We shouldn't care because we've still got great devs like Treyarch and EA's crappy internal studios churning out high quality software.
I agree that rising costs are a concern - a change I've accepted in recent weeks - but I think it is only fair to also acknowledge that there are new companies that come in to existence and that there are areas of gaming that is growing rapidly - mobile developers being the biggest.
Now that might not be the way people want growth to come about in the industry but the industry isn't all doom and gloom.
That's pretty obnoxious. There will always be a Hudson sized hole in the industry.
Glorified G
Member
I agree. Forget about poor management, it's all the hardware's fault. Hopefully the big 3 charges us over $300 for sprite based consoles. Every studio will be saved!
It doesn't fit the narrative some people want to present?
Get out with your perfectly logical question. We are all doomed, don't you see?
Also, Zipper.
Am I high, or is this addressed right there in the OP?
I would pay $300 for a console with nothing but 2D games if the library was good and it had some hand-drawn ones like Muramasa and Dragon's Crown.
Not in reference to the OP, but to individual posters. Look back a few pages and you'll see posts along the lines of
And so forth.
I would not.
and speaking more to the thread at large.
but hey, I guess it's cool to proclaim doom and gloom and how if we have powerful consoles it will be the end of the world as we know it.
If you remove those smaller game developers then the list is significantly shorter. If you are asking, "How many new studios have been started who make home console/pc games, of the scale that most of the studios we lost use to make?", then that list is a lot smaller than you may think. We're talking medium to large size, full 3D games. Not games that could have been made in flash or something comparable.
And when we say new studios, we don't mean rebranded studios like Clover to Platinum Games. We mean brand new development studios where the core team had just recently been assembled to work together on new games.
The person who made this topic has no narrative. He just wanted to compile a list of developers who have been lost since 2006. You can interpret it as you please.
So if we have lost around 50% of the developers, who use to make medium to large scale full 3D games, since 2006, and 80 percent of the new developers, that have taken their place, make games that are iOS, flash and live arcade derivatives, then the amount of core games of medium to large scale has decreased by a pretty large margin.
You don't see a potential problem with this? You haven't noticed that the number of console games released every month, that we can buy at the store, has reduced in number since last generation?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's so sad that no one even seems to remember Cavia
Good night sweet prince, and thanks for that godly OST.
Good night sweet prince, and thanks for that godly OST.
We're excluding iOS/Facebook developers? Then the list of new studios and hires is significantly smaller than the list of closed ones, by quite a wide margin.
But you are correct that this doesn't represent a collapse of gaming. It's just a general exodus away from console-style development and towards iOS/Indie/Facebook style.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Because they weren't really closed, just reshuffled. They did lose some key staff in the process though, as did Artoon and Feelplus.It's so sad that no one even seems to remember Cavia
It's so sad that no one even seems to remember Cavia
http://i.imgur.com/BglQC.jpg[IMG]
Good night sweet prince, and thanks for that godly OST.[/QUOTE]
I hate how they're remembered for Nier and not drakengard...after all Nier is a sequel!
AlphaTwo00
Member
Oh hey, this thread.
The list of closures has always been an interesting debate, and people always fail to miss the bigger picture (and I guess I might further expand my point in that thread), because that list also fails to address
a) the number of studios that have dropped in size (going from 3, 2 to 1 teams, downsized, but not closed)
b) the number of studios that have moved out of console/handheld and moved into mobile/facebook development.
and on the other side
a) the number of startups that gets spawned out of the layoffs and such.
The studio where I've worked at isn't on this list, but has made the (b) jump into mobile game development. So, on paper, they didn't close, but do that contribute to console/handheld games anymore? Not really. And you may also ask whether new startups popped out of it? One, or two, both 2-3 man iOS dev.
I guess if you distill the numbers down to "numbers of studios closed" and "number of studios opened", then you can spin the numbers whichever way you want to drive the story you want to spin as.
The list of closures has always been an interesting debate, and people always fail to miss the bigger picture (and I guess I might further expand my point in that thread), because that list also fails to address
a) the number of studios that have dropped in size (going from 3, 2 to 1 teams, downsized, but not closed)
b) the number of studios that have moved out of console/handheld and moved into mobile/facebook development.
and on the other side
a) the number of startups that gets spawned out of the layoffs and such.
The studio where I've worked at isn't on this list, but has made the (b) jump into mobile game development. So, on paper, they didn't close, but do that contribute to console/handheld games anymore? Not really. And you may also ask whether new startups popped out of it? One, or two, both 2-3 man iOS dev.
I guess if you distill the numbers down to "numbers of studios closed" and "number of studios opened", then you can spin the numbers whichever way you want to drive the story you want to spin as.
whalleywhat
Member
It would appear that poor management is endemic to this industry. What luck to have so many poor managers flocking to video game development.
Maybe I phrased what you quoted poorly but I did say IOS and Zynga type devs DO count.
I agree with you that it does show a shift, and there has been exponential growth in IOS/Indie/Facebook style games, but I don't think that's how I'd categorize the shift.
I would say the shift represents smart existing developers and new upstart developers living within their means and using current trends to maximize profits and potential. Where that differs from just saying IOS/Indie/Facebook style games is that while those are included it also accounts for developers releasing lower budget console and PC games that either start at bargain prices to induce sales or are distributed through XBLA/PSN etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is it's a shift away from "Everything has to be marketed like crazy and sell millions of copies for $60" to a much smarter "Let's make a game that won't break us and is guaranteed to return our investment while building a fan base and any profits are considered icing on the cake."
AlphaTwo00
Member
I think this list however, does represent the complete disappearance of the B-list developers, and I think if we ever look back on this generation, that will be it's highlight: your second tier devs are pretty much gone. Either you move up towards AAA or you scale down closer to XBLA, and having a game that was "just average" won't do it anymore.
But that still creates the problem of destroying mid-level devs, which is something people have been saying for some time. Having nothing but the two extremes - exorbitantly budgeted hit or flop games and indie level XBLA or iOS mobile games - isn't healthy for the video game industry. It's specifically bad for the console market because a fewer number of titles will be able to really thrive. And I'm sure plenty of people will chime in and say "what the hell do I care, it just means higher quality games for me to enjoy," but I'm going to stop them right now and say that's an incredibly short sighted, and frankly fucking stupid, stance to take.
The audience apparently doesn't want those types of games in large enough quantities to justify investment in those types of games. It's not healthy or unhealthy; it's the industry adapting to the market rather than throwing good money after bad.
XBLA-level games are often better games than those B-tier games of years gone by, anyway.
Glass Rebel
Member
I have the faint feeling that Nintendo will suffer most because of this. No facts to back it up but I think they're one of the more prominent developers still churning out a lot of B-level software.
SolidSnakex
Member
Whoa...what? Nintendo's titles are about as far away from B-level as you can get.
Glass Rebel
Member
Not Mario, Zelda and the like. I was thinking of Wario, Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment... all the minor stuff. Obviously not in quality but in mass appeal, budget etc.
CecilRousso
Member
Where do people draw the line between top tier and middle tier developers? I consider these developers to be middle tiers, but maybe I´m wrong in somce cases.
Double Fine
Sports Interactive
Creative Assembly
Paradox
Firaxis
Bohemia
Gaijin
Telltale
Double Fine
Sports Interactive
Creative Assembly
Paradox
Firaxis
Bohemia
Gaijin
Telltale
Double Fine WAS a mid-tier developer, and I suppose still has the manpower to be one now, but they saw the writing on the wall and smartly re-organized into a studio that simultaneously works on several small-budget projects rather than a single mid-tier title.
Firaxis is a AAA studio.
Telltale is an interesting case, in that they have adopted a business model that few others have been able to successfully use. If you look at each episode as a product, they'd probably fall into the low-budget space. They probably have the manpower to release middle-tier failures, but have instead gone with a business model that makes sense.
SolidSnakex
Member
I guess I can agree with that since those are all developed by B-level developers (Good-Feel, Camelot and Treasure), Nintendo simply acted as the publisher in those instances. But i'm not sure why they would put Nintendo in trouble. Nintendo is all about making profit, so i'd imagine that they have a pretty good idea of what type of budget those games need in order to turn a quick profit. I think that's one of the biggest things that Nintendo has over nearly every other publisher. They aren't going to sink 10's of millions of dollars into a game that "might" have a chance of being a hit.
I think that's a pretty solid list as far as B-level/mid-tier devs go. Many of the devs that have crashed this gen have tried to compete on a higher level when they couldn't. It's a big issue that THQ has run into. They've tried to compete on that level and can't hang, but they refuse to give up and just keep throwing more and more money into the pot.
In terms of what? AAA usually just refers to a budget that the developers usually works with. So technically even a studio like Ninja Theory would be AAA.
I thought we were talking about budgets. Firaxis is a big studio. Apologies if I missed the point of what he was asking, but that seemed to be the gist of his question.
Their stuff seems AAA in terms of production level. The nature of their games probably allows for some savings here and their compared to a shooter, but overall I think they're up there.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
I just checked some of the employee numbers off that list, actually, surprised SI still only has about 70 staff.
What did surprise me, though, apparently Creative Assembly have a staff of 200+?! What the? Are they working on something new? Seems huge just for Total War.
Glass Rebel
Member
You're right and I'm fully aware of that. As I said, I have no facts to back anything up. Nintendo as a hardware-manufacturer is a special case though. I don't know how much profit they make off these games so I can only guess that they're made solely for one purpose: Strenghthening the library of the console.
With this pillar losing relevance in the grand scheme of things and DD and social gaming emerging as a substantial parts of the console landscape I'm curious to see if Nintendo can offset their inexperience in this area.
SolidSnakex
Member
I guess it just depends on how you define A-level and B-level developers. I personally view A-level devs as a combination of sales, quality and budget. They're given big budgets but they're able to deliver a great game that sales a lot. There are only so many developers out there that are able to deliver on all 3 fronts. Some might be given a AAA budget but they aren't able to deliver the sales or quality that's expected (a recent example of that would be Homefront).
I see where you're coming from, but the crux of this thread is those studios that are getting shut down because they failed to deliver on their budgets. (and yes, there are plenty of examples where publishers foolishly gave them budgets that were far beyond the their realistic sales prospects, such as Homefront.)
And since we were discussing Firaxis, the Civ games are all critically-acclaimed and sell well, too - so it's not like Firaxis is coming up short on those fronts, either.
edit - I do think their upcoming X-Com game might be a bit of a difficult sell in the marketplace, even though I'm personally very interested in it.
Thank you for your insight on this issue. It is always good to receive a developers opinion. You raise some good points.
What I really hate about the terms, B to AAA developers, is that a lot of these "B" developers made fantastic niche games, which use to be plentiful during the PSX and PS2 generations. Those developers were able to make great console games, which may not have sold millions of copies. But they sold enough, to a loyal fan base, to turn a decent enough profit so they could continue supporting the genre.
Due to the increased costs of developing on more powerful hardware, now those excellent niche games (which I always considered to be AAA) all of a sudden became unsustainable and too expensive to develop.
So when we lose the developers, who made great niche games, then the ridiculous amount of diversity, that we use to be so proud of on the console side, is steadily disappearing. If you compare the number of games by genre, from the past 3 generations, then you will see a trend which should worry anyone who cares about the future of console gaming.
Unless, that is, you would like to see a future where only 3rd and 1st person shooters consist of well over half of all console games released, and the other percentage is divided between sports and westernized RPG's, with sprinkles of motion based mini-games, racing and fighting games.
I honestly think people forgot how amazingly diverse console gaming really use to be. There are countless examples of great niche games, from the previous two generations, whose type of experiences have gone unfulfilled this generation.
We are so distracted by the glamor of HD gaming, and the progress that has been made in virtual worlds, that we have failed to see everything we have already lost and are continuing to lose. The chances of PSN/XBLA size development teams taking up the mantle for the kinds of experiences we have already lost are very slim, if not impossible, given their limitations.
In a healthy video game ecology, the excessive gap between console game developers and non console game developers should not have to exist. Of course there will always be a difference between large and small developers, but that difference has grown considerably to the point of being unhealthy, over the past 8 years.
Ignoring the growing problems will only serve to do the industry substantially more harm in the future, than if console makers, publishers and middleware developers had acknowledged the problem and acted sufficiently enough to protect themselves and the industry as a whole.
There are quite a few avenues which they can pursue in order to mitigate these problems, without being intrusive to independent game developers or an impediment to the growth of the industry.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Hero of Legend
Member
What shocked me is that they were behind Sonic Classic Collection for DS. I knew that since it was announced, but it still surprises me even today.
CaptainSchwann
Member
I honestly had no idea there were this many studios that were shut down this gen....
I Stalk Alone
Member
Most people are oblivious to what has been going on but the big change has been this exponential increase of budgets becoming normal without the exponential increase of the potential market. Budgets should scale with market growth not be controlled by technological advancements that only cater to the elite. You provide a need for a market that is already there. What the HD generation has done was try to create the need for a market when hd adoption was not as widespread. It was not ready until 2011 to be honest. Wii catered to the exponential growth provided by ps2 in casual gaming the exponential growth in the ps2 generation was not growing because of bigher resolurtion tv's but by games accessible to the masses at a mass market price. Only now the market is starting to make profit but it is too late for those who have already suffered before christmas last year when the hd generation made more money than game budgets of wii and ps2 caliber.
I do have a good feeling that ms and sony as well as nintendo have all learned lessons from this gen and it will be a much more developer friendly generation with plenty of profits to go around for many more develipers compared to this generation.
StoppedInTracks
Member
That list is BRUTAL.
Was last gen as depressing?
Is next-gen going to be a bloodbath?
Was last gen as depressing?
Is next-gen going to be a bloodbath?
SolidSnakex
Member
The bleeding could stop if there was actually a mid-tier market. Some of us were having a discussion about that in the Radical Entertainment thread. I think that's the biggest problem with the industry right now. Outside of Japan there's really only a AAA market and a digital market. Those are the two choices for developers. That just leads to some developers staying in the retail side while pushing AAA games even though they just aren't cut out for it.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
It happens every generation. Whether there are more or less studios closing, who knows.
Go through some of your old PSone, PS2 etc games and you'd be surprised how many developers no longer exist.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
This shows how high gaming productions costs are during this gen. Gaming business are becoming a very risk one and there are people who want next-gen to be even more powerful. That would mean even bigger production costs. If it keep it that way, I predict a financial crisis on the industry on a very near future.