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Tomb Raider 2*'s budget isn't larger than Tomb Raider's, is "next chapter" of story

A

AppleMIX

Member
Smelly Tramp said:
that's what happens when you make a new game in an existing franchise, it will always be compared to it's predecessors, why wouldn't we do this?
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Because it is completely unfair to the new game. Any sort of change is viewed negatively and as a result is taken out of context and unfairly judged. Lets assume TR multiplayier was actually really good (It's not, but for the sake of argument), yet it would automatically viewed as a negative because the old games didn't play like that.

You're judging a game on what it should be (in your mind) rather than on what it is.

RaikuHebi said:
Rather than the platforming being handed to you on a plate. I feel like I'm much more in control of the character if making the jump is down to me.
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The jump is anyways down to you (in both games). The difference is that in 2013, you have way more control. A game should not be punished for actually having better controls then its predecessors.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
-tetsuo- said:
I understand what you are saying but you have to see why I enjoyed TR more. Where most people shun Lara for becoming a super hero, I loved it. I loved that I was being shot at, chased by melee and flushed from cover by grenades almost at all times. TLOU is much slower and, while that is fine, TR made me play the game more. And TLOU definitely did not have better level design. Some of the TR encounters blow any of the TLOU's away. Searching for gun parts and scrap on the beach was much better than any search in TLOU.

Regardless if whatever game called which mechanic a puzzle or traversal or whatever, there was simply more to do in TR. Like I said, I liked TLOU just fine. The gameplay is very simplistic though from just about every angle. It helps that is is executed well, it just wasn't enough to be anything amazing to me.
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Pretty sure I recall we just never got on the same page with TR back in the OT. Nothing wrong with that, more power to you if you liked it. We just fundamentally disagree on the level and encounter design of both games. How we both played both games is the elephant in the room in any game discussion, which to be clear is not a comment implying either of us played either game "wrong."
 
-tetsuo-

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Fine Ham Abounds said:
Pretty sure I recall we just never got on the same page with TR back in the OT. Nothing wrong with that, more power to you if you liked it. We just fundamentally disagree on the level and encounter design of both games. How we both played both games is the elephant in the room in any game discussion, which to be clear is not a comment implying either of us played either game "wrong."
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Yea, that is why I made it a point to say I understood where you were coming from. Like I said, I like TLOU and there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with it. I just prefer the more action like nature of TR. I am one of the big Tomb Raider fans that doesn't mind the reboot.
 
I

I Wanna Be The Guy

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
RagnarokX said:
People saying the old Tomb Raider games haven't aged well. No shit. That's why people want NEW games that embody the spirit of the old games. Do you think we want slow as molasses grid-based movement animations? No. We want a game where you explore vast locations with challenging platforming full of puzzles to solve and traps to survive. That can be done without the things that make the old games hard to play by today's standards. We don't want a game that is so insultingly dumbed down and content devoid that it might as well play itself.


People that complained about the game before release did so based on evidence. You had interviews and footage pointing to the game having a terrible story that seemed to be more important than the gameplay to the designers, talks of tombs being optional, and pretty much all gameplay footage being shootbang. Even though I had low expectations, even I thought the pre-release footage would be somewhat misleading. Maybe they were just making it look that way to appeal to a certain demographic. The game was worse than my expectations, offering almost nothing I want in a Tomb Raider game.
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*Slow clap*

100% agree. Couldn't have said it better myself. After the reboot I have low expectations, but I'll certainly follow it prior to release nevertheless and it's a Tomb Raider game so I'll no doubt buy it anyway. Hey, you never know. Maybe Crystal will really step their game up for the sequel. Wouldn't be the first time. Legend was disappointing and very dumbed down too, but they certainly stepped their game up for Anniversary.
 
eXistor

eXistor

Member
Less money on cutscenes and more on actual game mechanics please. Actual exploration, actual platforming, actual puzzles. You know, Tomb Raider like it should be.
 
A

angular graphics

Banned
RagnarokX said:
People saying the old Tomb Raider games haven't aged well. No shit. That's why people want NEW games that embody the spirit of the old games. Do you think we want slow as molasses grid-based movement animations? No. We want a game where you explore vast locations with challenging platforming full of puzzles to solve and traps to survive. That can be done without the things that make the old games hard to play by today's standards. We don't want a game that is so insultingly dumbed down and content devoid that it might as well play itself.
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Very well said man!
 
D

dragonbane

Member
Well, that's not really good news. You need to spend way less, not more or the same. SE sales expectations for the original were borderline insane.
 
M

Mman235

Member
AppleMIX said:
The jump is anyways down to you (in both games). The difference is that in 2013, you have way more control.
Click to expand...

No it isn't. In modern Action/Adventures (Mirror's Edge aside, which is basically a proper modern evolution of the earlier Tomb Raider's controls) you press jump and then the scripting guides you toward the ledge you're close too, or doesn't if you aren't close enough/it screws up. The reboot attempts to give some extra control by letting you guide your jumps in mid-air (and it deserves a little praise for that), but it's mostly just a meaningless gesture, with a few exceptions. The amount of modifiers and degrees of control you have over individual jumps in the original TRs is massively greater and every one can be manipulated by a good player to be used to their advantage (or slip up an unskilled one, which is where a lot of the misconceptions about them come from), and there's no scripting or invisible walls to block you off if you are skilled or imaginative enough to pull something crazy off.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
Yeah when was a sequel announced?

Is the port of Tomb Raider people were talking about actually a sequel and they just messed up the announcement? lol
 
R

RaikuHebi

Banned
Mman235 said:
No it isn't. In modern Action/Adventures (Mirror's Edge aside, which is basically a proper modern evolution of the earlier Tomb Raider's controls) you press jump and then the scripting guides you toward the ledge you're close too, or doesn't if you aren't close enough/it screws up. The reboot attempts to give some extra control by letting you guide your jumps in mid-air (and it deserves a little praise for that), but it's mostly just a meaningless gesture, with a few exceptions. The amount of modifiers and degrees of control you have over individual jumps in the original TRs is massively greater and every one can be manipulated by a good player to be used to their advantage (or slip up an unskilled one, which is where a lot of the misconceptions about them come from), and there's no scripting or invisible walls to block you off if you are skilled or imaginative enough to pull something crazy off.
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You explained what I was trying to say perfectly. Thank you. I explained it earlier like it feels like the game is weighing you down. Many games in the HD era have that problem.
 
G

Gherid__lacksGPS

Banned
K.Sabot said:
I really hope Lara doesn't dual wield pistols in the next one.

It'd be great for her to have the iconic dual pistols, but then use them one at a time because "it wouldn't make any tactical sense to use them both".
Click to expand...
And the tomb raider franchise continues to get molested and rids itself of anything remotely relevant to its heritage.
Gucci Messiah said:
Maybe you should go back and play Tomb Raider 2, it hasn't aged well
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In terms of level design, pacing, utilizing gameplay elements to drive the story and character development, it's aged VERY well. Better than 99% of the dog shit out on the market today. Just because something looks shiny doesn't make it worthwhile.
Ushojax said:
Tomb Raider is about feeling like Indiana Jones, not graphically stabbing people in the eyeballs. They totally failed to understand why people liked the original games, the core of the game should always be based around platforming and puzzle-solving.
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This. What scares me though is that so many gamers slather themselves over the most superfical, common denominator. And publishes know this.
Morrigan Targaryen said:
Okay. How about we get a modernized Tomb Raider then, instead of a bad Uncharted clone that's worse than Uncharted in every single way? That would be amazing, classic Tomb Raider gameplay but with modern graphics and fluid controls. The possibilities are magnificent, but no one has done that yet. I wonder why.

- Ditch QTEs
- Remove the stupid hand-holding, or at least make it optional;
- Ditch the "survival instinct" (aka Detective Mode aka Listen Mode etc.) garbage or make it possible to turn off (and don't make the game design revolve around it if you do include it). Those "Use L2 for survival instincts!!" notifications popped even in end-game, jesus. Fuck off.;
- Have actual Tombs with puzzles and don't make them optional (and don't pretend they're "hidden" with "SECRET NEARBY!!" chimes and giant chalk arrows pointing you the way;
- Remove XP bars with tacked-on "skill trees" that do nothing (ditto for the meaningless weapon upgrades), it's shallow fluff;
- Give Lara a personality;
- Write a decent story with a decent cast. Look at The Last of Us for tips on how to do that;
- If you're gonna have an "open world" setting, make it worthwhile to explore and revisit old areas; finding meaningless collectibles isn't enough for that.

(In other words... stop being Tomb Raider 2013 and be something else, I guess. XD)
Click to expand...

This is basically what I was going to say. Many problems solved

The game treated you like a retard. I seriously question peoples taste in games when they praise TR13. People got to caught up on how pretty it looked and what the PR team fed them. Let the gameplay develop and tell the story, don't shoe horn it down our throats. They want a survival game, then make it one. Go back to medi packs, maybe even having to search out elements to craft them. Then your forced to make decisions based on rationing and item management - and element of survival. Not just mowing down waves on enemies like a sociopathic, military trained killer - even killing people who are trying to help you.

Oh, and maybe, just maybe, a "Tomb Raider" game should involve, oh I dont' know, raiding tombs? TR has an opportunity to be something truly unique in a sea of conformity. They fucked it up the first time.

Edit: oh, and if the final boss is another QTE, I swear on my own grave.....
 
H

HardRojo

Member
Hopefully the budget won't go to useless RPG mechanics, useless skills or enemies who like to pop their heads and stand in front of explosive barrels all the time. I'll give TR2 a shot but if it's completely identical to TR then I'll be disappointed.
 
M

Mman235

Member
Gherid__lacksGPS said:
And the tomb raider franchise continues to get molested and rids itself of anything remotely relevant to its heritage.
Click to expand...

The Dual Pistols are actually the one bit of "iconic" Lara equipment I'd be fine with them shedding as that would inherently imply less focus on combat in the future.

How fitting that they're the one item they brought back in the reboot.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
-tetsuo- said:
Yea, that is why I made it a point to say I understood where you were coming from. Like I said, I like TLOU and there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with it. I just prefer the more action like nature of TR. I am one of the big Tomb Raider fans that doesn't mind the reboot.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess my post was slightly unnecessary, sorry.

For the sake of discussion, there were two parts of the new Tomb Raider that I did like - the Chasm Temple room with the bells, and the Skyguard battle late in the game that starts with the volley of arrows, which has probably the closest thing to challenging combat in the game. These weren't things that made me think of classic Tomb Raider necessarily, but they stand above the other 98% of the game for me, and I could see myself enjoying more of that.
 
weevles

weevles

Member
I'm hype for next gen TR. I am also in the camp of having more puzzles and exploration and much less "one woman army" combat. I wouldn't mind combat that is carefully tied to specific set pieces or contextually within the framework of a well-crafted story, but I don't want this to be another Uncharted with female avatar (as much as I love that series).

But for whatever combat is in there, definitely keep the bow and arrow. That was by far my favorite weapon. The upgrade system was cool too, but again, I don't want the game to be combat-heavy.
 
C

Chinner

Banned
im expecting tr2 to be a rip-off the TLOU, except lara will be (sexually) grunting at every single point, and there will be an edgy moment with a qte moment (lara has to save the butler by murdering 5 people inbetween with an axe) and it will be visceral and super violent but not in the way to highlight the brutality of man in the attempt to survival but instead to glorify violence.
 
F

Fine Ham Abounds

Member
Chinner said:
im expecting tr2 to be a rip-off the TLOU, except lara will be (sexually) grunting at every single point, and there will be an edgy moment with a qte moment (lara has to save the butler by murdering 5 people inbetween with an axe) and it will be visceral and super violent but not in the way to highlight the brutality of man but instead to glorify violence.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about, you'll open the freezer and find the Butler hanging off of a meat hook
 
A

AppleMIX

Member
Mman235 said:
No it isn't. In modern Action/Adventures (Mirror's Edge aside, which is basically a proper modern evolution of the earlier Tomb Raider's controls) you press jump and then the scripting guides you toward the ledge you're close too, or doesn't if you aren't close enough/it screws up. The reboot attempts to give some extra control by letting you guide your jumps in mid-air (and it deserves a little praise for that), but it's mostly just a meaningless gesture, with a few exceptions. The amount of modifiers and degrees of control you have over individual jumps in the original TRs is massively greater and every one can be manipulated by a good player to be used to their advantage (or slip up an unskilled one, which is where a lot of the misconceptions about them come from), and there's no scripting or invisible walls to block you off if you are skilled or imaginative enough to pull something crazy off.
Click to expand...

You're argument boils down two points.

A.) The game guides you toward ledges.

This is true, and this is mostly a measure to prevent frustration. It becomes frustrating when I miss a jump by a matter of a few degrees and die. Loading up your last save, going though the level until you get to the same jump (assuming you didn't quick save) and try again.

This is rewarding to on a very superficial level. It is not though provoking or even that skillful. It is just lining up jumps.

B.)This mechanic can be exploited by good players.

Then I suggest you watch a Tomb Raider 2013 speed run.
 
T

tbm24

Member
Hope this means the game is coming sooner rather than later. I've been wanting the sequel the minute I finished the first one. Can't wait :).
 
S

Samir Sedlar

Member
I was never a fan of Tomb Raider, but this reboot was totally something else, TR2013 was one hell of a game, totally one of the best games in 2013, hands down, I am actually replaying it nowadays, It is just so much fun.

I just hope for the sequel they give us more and more SuperNatural themed monsters.
 
S

Sulik2

Member
Why do these publishers continue to waste their money on multiplayer development for games like these? No one wants Tomb Raider multiplayer, don't spend the money on it.
 
H

HeroesInAHalfShell

Neo Member
We need at trailer for this at VGX next month. Tomb Raider was one of only a small handful of reboots I actually approved of and thoroughly enjoyed this gen. (Lords of Shadow is also among that group.)
 
E

Epcott

Member
RaikuHebi said:
Please be more like this:

polls_Tomb_Raider_2_Pal_0336_397920_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg
Click to expand...

Oh hell no. I don't want to fight a dragon. TRemake had the right amount of mysticism and realism. Leave that dinosaur, skeleton, alien fighting nonsense in the past.
 
T

tbm24

Member
Sulik2 said:
Why do these publishers continue to waste their money on multiplayer development for games like these? No one wants Tomb Raider multiplayer, don't spend the money on it.
Click to expand...
I was neutral about uc2 having multiplayer, then I played it and found out it was amazing. Who knows, properly done mp for TR2 could be amazing, if it is I want it. So it's not no one however much you'd like to believe it is.
 
R

RaikuHebi

Banned
Epcott said:
Oh hell no. I don't want to fight a dragon. TRemake had the right amount of mysticism and realism. Leave that dinosaur, skeleton, alien fighting nonsense in the past.
Click to expand...
Lolwut? Every Tomb Raider has crazy shit like that. Even TR2013.

I actually wouldn't mind losing those things, but I certainly enjoyed all that nonsense and thought that Dragon fight was epic especially when you find out how you kill it, which the game teaches you in the first cutscene before you even see the New Game menu.
 
A

ArjanN

Member
Sulik2 said:
Why do these publishers continue to waste their money on multiplayer development for games like these? No one wants Tomb Raider multiplayer, don't spend the money on it.
Click to expand...

While I think the TR13 multiplayer was tacked on, publishers most likely include it because they know it does help sell a game. MP is an expected feature for a lot of people, and reviews will often list not having it as a negative.

strafer said:
How is the TR Anniversary on PC? I've played both Legend and Underworld.

I'm curious about that game.
Click to expand...

It's great. Probably the best of that trilogy. I also highly recommend Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light if anyone hasn't played that yet.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
To think I never cared about the idea of a modern Tomb Raider a year ago and now I'm excited for a second.

I really hope "development" of Tomb Raider just doesn't necessarily she's still ultra vulnerable again at the start and mildly grizzled by the end all over again, or that she goes full badass throughout the entire game. It's a fine balance, especially when you have to balance gameplay over the course of the game. I like the character though, so I hope they don't fuck it up.
 
R

RagnarokX

Member
Epcott said:
Oh hell no. I don't want to fight a dragon. TRemake had the right amount of mysticism and realism. Leave that dinosaur, skeleton, alien fighting nonsense in the past.
Click to expand...

You think TR13 was more grounded? The game revolves around
a magical weather queen and her army of demons and a cult of hundreds of people that, despite decades of holding the US and Japanese governments and military at bay are completely decimated in a weekend by a young woman with no combat experience using just a bow, pistol, shotgun, rifle, and grenade launcher.

The game is no more grounded than past Tomb Raiders. Hell, I'd say it's even more off the wall since Lara kills way more people than ever before with a less fitting characterization for it. Plus
the "demons" dying so easily was one of the biggest let downs in the game. Built them up to be some kind of terrifying force to be reckoned with and in the end they're no more of a challenge than the cult members.
 
G

Gucci Messiah

Banned
Crawl said:
lol what?
Click to expand...

Stone Ocean said:
Who the hell bought the first game for that atrocious multiplayer?
Click to expand...

I know a lot of people who won't touch a game unless it has a multiplayer component and many publishers feel the same way. Have you ever actually sat down and wondered why the first game had the feature in the first place? Why would they throw competitive multiplayer into a Tomb Raider game?

Oh wait, that's right. Because Joe Average is more likely to buy the game.

sublimit said:
Lol can't wait for the "you're blinded by nostalgia" posts.
Click to expand...

jump-to-conclusions-mat.jpg
 
M

Mman235

Member
AppleMIX said:
This is rewarding to on a very superficial level. It is not though provoking or even that skillful. It is just lining up jumps.
Click to expand...

Ironic that your analysis is very superficial then. There's massive amount of precision that's lost when every jump is guided, and there's inherently far less freedom when every jump is slave to the designer's will. There can be extra frustration (personally being killed off because of the ridiculous ways designers have limited me is far more frustrating than failing while given full freedom), but you always have to take some good with bad when you're putting freedom in the player's hands.

That also doesn't mean I want autoplatforming to die, and I actually think it works in games like Uncharted 2 (where the platforming is about positioning in combat rather than challenge). The problem is that Mirror's Edge is basically the only modern attempt at different approach in Action/adventures, and even series that used to do other things take the automated approach now.

AppleMIX said:
Then I suggest you watch a Tomb Raider 2013 speed run.
Click to expand...

I tried watching a stream of it and it seemed to mostly be just button mashing and QTE's in between occasional cool skips and smooth combat. Better than stuff like Tomb Raider: Legend but only by so much (and Legend was the least fun I've ever had speedrunning for the reasons I've given despite being very easy). Maybe I missed some super awesome thing though. If we're doing this might I suggest an original Tomb Raider speedrun? I'll blow my own trumpet and show my own: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcGKxQSxd6I

Epcott said:
Oh hell no. I don't want to fight a dragon. TRemake had the right amount of mysticism and realism. Leave that dinosaur, skeleton, alien fighting nonsense in the past.
Click to expand...

I've never got this stuff; how does "I want a mystery without the mystery" even work? The Supernatural enemies in the reboot had a cool build up but were almost literally model swaps of the cannon-fodder you've been fighting the whole game. It would have been much cooler if they actually vaguely lived up to the hype.
 
S

ShroudOfFate

Member
After playing TR2013 and absolutely loving it, I went back and played the HD collection. I loved those games as well (Underworld a little less so). I also tried playing the ps1 titles and just couldn't.

I don't get this attitude of "if you like the reboot, you're an awful person. the old games are better". Why can't people see the strengths of both? If TR2 is a little bit more exploration and puzzle heavy, I'd like it. If it stays mostly the same with a lot of shooting, I don't care. The game will probably be in my top 10 for the year regardless.
 
synce

synce

Member
The only people complaining are old school TR fans who want the new one to be like the old ones... on it's own it's a great game. Same thing happened with DmC
 
M

Metal Gear?!

Member
I imagine that most of the fans disappointed with The Tomb Raider (the second reboot) were pretty happy with the first reboot (Legend, Anniversary, Underworld) and where it was going, gameplay-wise, and wanted more of that combined with the open world-ish Metroidvania design CD originally promised.

Not the new Uncharted game they got, good as it was for an Uncharted clone.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to the original games exactly as they were, controls and all.
 
M

Mman235

Member
synce said:
The only people complaining are old school TR fans who want the new one to be like the old ones... on it's own it's a great game. Same thing happened with DmC
Click to expand...

Too bad the Action/Adventure genre doesn't have a Platinum equivalent to balance out the direction the main franchises are going (I guess if DICE delivers on Mirror's Edge 2 that'd be something...)
 
G

Gucci Messiah

Banned
Metal Gear?! said:
I imagine that most of the fans disappointed with The Tomb Raider (the second reboot) were pretty happy with the first reboot (Legend, Anniversary, Underworld) and where it was going, gameplay-wise, and wanted more of that combined with the open world-ish Metroidvania design CD originally promised.

Not the new Uncharted game they got, good as it was for an Uncharted clone.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to the original games exactly as they were, controls and all.
Click to expand...

You do realize that Uncharted ripped off Indiana Jones and the original Tomb Raider in the first place, right? I don't get it when people say this game is an "Uncharted clone" when Naughty Dog looked to Lara Croft and Hollywood for inspiration.
 
G

GQman2121

Banned
eXistor said:
Less money on cutscenes and more on actual game mechanics please. Actual exploration, actual platforming, actual puzzles. You know, Tomb Raider like it should be.
Click to expand...

No thanks.

More cover fire; more brain dead AI; more collecting; more hold forward to win; more moaning; more QTEs...
 
K

KefkaPalazzo

Member
Cool, first was relatively good, be it with flaws. Hopefully they keep going with the direction of this years and don't cave in to the cries for a return to the outdated style of the older titles.
 
1

123rl

Member
I really enjoyed the remake. More of the same, a few more puzzles, and a longer single player mode and I'm sold on it
 
Forsythia

Forsythia

Member
Great, now I want to play the reboot again! I just love it, don't care that it's nothing like the previous games.

They can ditch the multiplayer in the sequel, imho, but it seems that's a requirement for any action game these days. :/
 
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