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iOS 11 is 64-bit only - 32-bit apps no longer work (i.e. some games)

M

Magnus

Member
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit? I recognize this is a major problem for apps whose developers are now defunct or too small to permit the bandwidth necessary...

Also, don't most PCs running 64-bit OS' have no issue running 32-bit apps? Why can't iOS do the same?

Also, for the laymen (like me) - what will be the apparent end-user benefits when we switch to 64-bit OS and apps? Less battery usage, faster apps, etc?
 
A

Aeana

Member
I'm keeping my old iPad 2 on iOS 5 or whatever it's on just so that I have something to play the only official English version of Shin Megami Tensei on. Very sad to see it become unplayable for so many.
 
K

Kthulhu

Member
Karspankey said:
Lol @ people trying to make it seem like Apple are doing a bad thing



32-bit is fucking shit, m8

They're doing everyone a favor
Click to expand...

Are their even any iOS devices with more than 4GB of RAM? I don't see why an iOS device would need 64bit support at this point.
 
C

Cheech

Member
RIP, Flight Control.

But yeah, that app was so old, it didn't even support any of the new screen resolutions. Wish I could find a similar game.

Magnus said:
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit? I recognize this is a major problem for apps whose developers are now defunct or too small to permit the bandwidth necessary...

Also, don't most PCs running 64-bit OS' have no issue running 32-bit apps? Why can't iOS do the same?

Also, for the laymen (like me) - what will be the apparent end-user benefits when we switch to 64-bit OS and apps? Less battery usage, faster apps, etc?
Click to expand...

For the most part, it's trivial to update an app to 64 bit. The issue lies in the size of mobile CPUs. Desktop CPUs have much more horsepower, and are nowhere near as constrained on power usage as even if it's in a laptop, you're dealing with a much larger battery.

32 bit support requires an entire set of libraries, and the hardware to run them. Getting rid of all that legacy crap is in the best interest of everybody on a device where every fraction of a millimeter of battery and SOC (CPU, etc.) counts. As Aeana is doing, people who want/need legacy apps should just hang onto their old devices (which are only going to get cheaper to replace over time!).

I'm not an Apple apologist, but they're doing the right thing here. When the iPhone 5s and its 64 bit CPU launched, the writing was on the wall.
 
B

bionic77

Member
Tunesmith said:
All of these games were removed for other reasons than "no 32-bit".


Civilization Revolution 1 & 2. Shame. Hope 2K updates them.
Click to expand...
Hmm. I bet my copy of Dragon's Lair is never going to be updated. That game is really old.

I don't really play games on my iPhone anymore though. But I am probably in the minority on that. Sucks for any games that are not being brought forward.

In general though I am almost always for moving forward for devices, technology, etc.
 
T

Tain

Member
Goodbye Dodonpachi Maximum, the mobile-exclusive Cave STG.

I'd consider refunding some apps if Apple actually covered their end of the refund instead of putting it all on the devs of the software they just busted up but lol of course they won't.
 
K

Kthulhu

Member
Magnus said:
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit? I recognize this is a major problem for apps whose developers are now defunct or too small to permit the bandwidth necessary...

Also, don't most PCs running 64-bit OS' have no issue running 32-bit apps? Why can't iOS do the same?
Click to expand...

Windows has 32bit emulation. Apparently iOS was doing this on a hardware level instead, and now their ditching it in future iOS devices, so now their OS is 64bit only, so newer iOS devices won't be able to run apps that won't be updated.
 
N

nynt9

Member
If we ever end up switching to iterative consoles, something like this is bound to happen there as well.
 
T

Tunesmith

formerly "chigiri"
Magnus said:
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit? I recognize this is a major problem for apps whose developers are now defunct or too small to permit the bandwidth necessary...

Also, don't most PCs running 64-bit OS' have no issue running 32-bit apps? Why can't iOS do the same?

Also, for the laymen (like me) - what will be the apparent end-user benefits when we switch to 64-bit OS and apps? Less battery usage, faster apps, etc?
Click to expand...

The resources can vary heavily from app to app for 32bit to 64bit re-compiling. It's a case by case really depending on what libraries were used.

As for PCs supporting 32-bit still, that's because Intel and AMD have maintained 32-bit instructions with their CPUs which Windows runs on (16 bit is emulated). Which is what Apple is dropping in their next chips. There's a chance Macs running Apple's new hardware will maintain 32 bit support via emulation but that's just a guess.
 
L

Lkr

Member
Cheech said:
RIP, Flight Control.

But yeah, that app was so old, it didn't even support any of the new screen resolutions. Wish I could find a similar game.
Click to expand...
I never even realized that app was dead. I can't even find it on the iOS 10 store, I just see a bunch of knockoffs
Still hard to complain when I spent 99 cents on it back in 2012 lol.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
This situation wouldn't be so painful if the market for games didn't shift so quickly on mobile to games-as-a-service. A lot of the games made between 2008-2012 probably wouldn't have happened in today's market where barriers to entry are a lot higher.

Tain said:
Goodbye Dodonpachi Maximum, the mobile-exclusive Cave STG.

I'd consider refunding some apps if Apple actually covered their end of the refund instead of putting it all on the devs of the software they just busted up but lol of course they won't.
Click to expand...

That reminds me: Dodonpachi Maximum was a Windows Phone exclusive to begin with, and had its support on that platform quickly dropped within a year of release (Windows Phone 8 switched to the NT kernel and thus was not compatible with the majority of WP7 games).
 
K

Kthulhu

Member
nynt9 said:
If we ever end up switching to iterative consoles, something like this is bound to happen there as well.
Click to expand...

That's already happened with the New 3DS. It'll probably happen with the Scorpio and the PS4 Pro twords the end of the generation.
 
T

Tain

Member
nynt9 said:
If we ever end up switching to iterative consoles, something like this is bound to happen there as well.
Click to expand...

probably, and people should rightfully raise hell in that case too

Kthulhu said:
That's already happened with the New 3DS. It'll probably happen with the Scorpio and the PS4 Pro twords the end of the generation.
Click to expand...

Whoa, there's old 3DS software that won't run on New 3DS? Like what?
 
C

Costia

Member
nynt9 said:
If we ever end up switching to iterative consoles, something like this is bound to happen there as well.
Click to expand...
Still better than the current non-iterative where each console is assumed to break compatibility unless otherwise stated.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
Tain said:
probably, and people should rightfully raise hell in that case too



Whoa, there's old 3DS software that won't run on New 3DS? Like what?
Click to expand...

Well, there are Xbox 360 launch games playable on Xbox One today, 12 years later, and purchaseable on the Microsoft Store, with Xbox Live functionality intact.

You can even buy a digital download card for 2005's Kameo, with Xbox One branding, in certain retail stores.
 
S

stan423321

Member
Karspankey said:
...then...who is going to update it? The cloud?
Click to expand...

Barring some pretty extreme mistakes in API design Apple should have been able to design a zero-cost-when-not-used compatibility layer. Especially since they don't allow self-modifying code for anyone but themselves, they could have even translated the opcodes if they wanted to.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
Costia said:
Still better than the current non-iterative where each console is assumed to break compatibility unless otherwise stated.
Click to expand...

Ding, ding ding. The current situation is no different to keeping around an old iPad 4 that can't be updated beyond iOS 10.

The issue there is one of software distribution, not compatibility. It will become increasingly difficult to load an old device with old, but compatible, software, due to the delisting of 32 bit games from search results.

Tain said:
probably, and people should rightfully raise hell in that case too

Whoa, there's old 3DS software that won't run on New 3DS? Like what?
Click to expand...

Nothing. The N3DS can literally become a 3DS when booting legacy software, every DS and 3DS game card and download is compatible natively, right back to the 2001 GBA ambassador games.
 
G

Gestault

Member
emag said:
And rumor has it that Apple's forthcoming processors (either this year or next) will remove all the 32-bit backwards compatibility circuitry anyway.

If you really want to hold onto your 4+ year old games, stick with your old hardware and your old OS.
Click to expand...

To some extent, you're absolutely right. Which is why it's not a worthwhile marketplace for me. Games and software on mobile have enough of a history of arbitrary degredation that I think any penny put into it outside of direct enjoyment is thrown away.

Karspankey's bizarre hostility toward the idea of people's devices continuing to play existing, purchased software reeks of a sort of Stockholm syndrome I just can't relate to. 64-bit hardware handling 32-bit applications isn't some impossible dream, at the software or hardware level, when engineered competently. If there's a logical, necessary, generational break in design, that's one thing. This is existing devices on an existing platform, both already sold to consumers. I expect more.
 
S

stan423321

Member
Magnus said:
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit? I recognize this is a major problem for apps whose developers are now defunct or too small to permit the bandwidth necessary...

Also, don't most PCs running 64-bit OS' have no issue running 32-bit apps? Why can't iOS do the same?

Also, for the laymen (like me) - what will be the apparent end-user benefits when we switch to 64-bit OS and apps? Less battery usage, faster apps, etc?
Click to expand...

Re: update time: the update to 64-bit itself can be zero dev time cost for high level high quality source code. For low quality source code... well, you never know whether the number was 32-bit because it was supposed to be 32-bit, or because it was supposed to be pointer-long (i.e. should be 64-bit now). Low level code can be weird but if it's high quality the low level parts are isolated and small.

The real problem in most cases is that you need to actually submit the app again. So Apple can force you to include new, non-trivial mandatory features (in case of games, mostly resolution and aspect ratio related from what I have heard), and you need a not-too-old Mac which costs money.

The primary reason PCs don't eliminate 32-bit code is that PC users care way more about compatibility. The secondary reason is that for some types of applications 32-bit code uses less RAM. Linux even supports a special type of code which uses 32-bit pointers (for small RAM usage) but only runs on 64-bit processors (for other features of these).

Removal of 32-bit code will probably free some RAM and save you from translation layer translating 32-bit calls to 64-bit ones, but it apparently already does that on current iOS if you just don't run old apps. On new hardware Apple may design a processor that cannot decode 32-bit instructions at all, which would use less transistors, which could be leveraged in multiple ways (more cores, better hardware for something else, or less battery usage). It should be noted that on ARM64 32-bit memory code instruction decoding is for some reason very much unlike 64-bit memory code instruction decoding, while on x86-64 they follow mostly compatible formats.
 
SmokedMeat

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Fiendcode said:
It's Apple's walled garden and their storefront, not The Devs. Maybe Apple should refund consumers for their lost 32bit apps then?
Click to expand...

I tried getting refunded, and was told they couldn't do it because my games were purchased too long ago. Instead I got a few credits for some song downloads :(

I won't spend another dime on the App Store.
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
Apple started telling developers in 2014 that they needed to make a new build of their app that included a 64-bit executeable because eventually support for 32-bit apps would go away. In 2015 Apple wouldn't let any developer update their app unless the update included a 64-bit build. Now it is 2017, and they are finally doing it; any app that hasn't been updated in the last two years is obviously abandonware, as the developers have had plenty of time to deal with this.

I am an app developer, and yes, it sucks that the old apps I worked on at former companies will only work on my old phone from now on. But I don't look down on Apple for improving their products, just like I don't look down on Microsoft for abandoning Windows 95 and DOS apps in Windows XP. I think it's obvious Apple is planning to start releasing iOS devices with CPUs that don't have 32-bit support, so they can be smaller and cheaper; Apple uses custom-designed chips in their mobile devices rather than off-the-shelf ones, so they can do that. And with this change iOS no longer needs to include 32-bit versions of their system libraries that older apps used, which cuts down on OS development and testing time.

An important thing to note, other iOS updates have affected compatibility too, so chances are those old abandoned apps don't work well anyways. One game I worked on, for example, no longer plays background music. Another older one crashes all the time. One stopped working altogether in one iOS update, only to start working again in a later one.

Magnus said:
How difficult/time-consuming is it for a developer to update their apps to 64-bit?
Click to expand...
For most developers, all it requires is making a new build with a new version of XCode. Not difficult at all. The problem comes when an app uses an external library - I had to update one game for 64-bit, it used a special sound/music library (Wwise), and was using an old 32-bit version of Wwise. You can't mix 32-bit and 64-bit code. So to upgrade our game to 64-bit required upgrading to a new version of Wwise, which not only cost money to get the newer version, it changed how the library worked, so we had to update how our game handled sound.
 
E

emag

Member
For the record, I would have liked the time between the delisting of 32-bit apps in the store and the dropping of 32-bit support from the OS to have been significantly greater. Ideally, 32-bit apps would have been delisted around release of iOS 10 (but still available for redownload if previously purchased), really lighting a fire under developers' asses well in advance (despite Apple asking developers to move to 64-bit in 2013) and preventing users from buying software that wouldn't last another year.

Kthulhu said:
Are their even any iOS devices with more than 4GB of RAM? I don't see why an iOS device would need 64bit support at this point.
Click to expand...

While 64-bit was sold to PC buyers as primarily being for increased memory support, that's not the whole story, and isn't the driving force on mobile (32-bit ARM v7-A supports well over 4 GB of RAM anyway, via extensions, although each app's memory usage is limited to 4 GB).

AArch64 (ARM v8-A and above) is a significant break from 32-bit ARM v7-A (and below); it's effectively a new architecture, even moreso than going from IA-32 to AMD64 was.

The new architecture offers far better performance than the old architecture across the board, regardless of bitty-ness, and even outside of 64-bit INT/FP support.

Costia said:
I am an EE engineer. So if you are saying it improves those, you need to explain how.

It makes interoperability/compatibility worse because it is literaly removing compatibility.
Click to expand...

My post was intended to be from the perspective of the consumer (and Apple), not from that of dead (or deadbeat) developers.

Backwards compatibility limits new iOS sharing/interoperability features and compatibility with new hardware features.

As you can see it also requires more dev resources due to required updates. And you could always make 64bit apps if you wanted to. So its only worse.
Click to expand...

Backwards compatibility requires Apple's development resources to be squandered on legacy software instead of moving the platform forward.

What does security has to do with 64bit?
Click to expand...

Supporting old code and an emulation layer opens up great potential for security vulnerabilities.

Performance - i rarely needed 64bit integers, so where is the gain?
Click to expand...

Loading and running the emulation/backwards-compatibility layer adversely affects the system as a whole.
 
E

erawsd

Member
I made my peace with the idea that I wouldn't keep my games forever; whether thats mobile, console, or PC.

The things I'm curious about is... how easy is it to maintain an older iOS device?

1. If I ever need to reinstall legacy firmware, is that possible these days? I know at one time the device had to "phone home" and get a signature from Apple, but Apple stopped signing anything that wasnt the newest firmware a device could run.

2. If I ever need to replace the device, is it possible to restore all my data onto another secondhand device?
 
F

Fachasaurus

Member
Onward and forward. I hope this helps prune out some of the shitty apps too that have been long abandoned and I really don't want to see them in my searches.

Don't want to piss anyone off becauseI can empathize with people losing access to legacy apps but this is certainly a sacrifice for a better future of app creation.
 
T

Tain

Member
yeah the future of smartphone tech was doomed because apple decided to keep a fully functional 32-bit compatibility layer on older models of their phones

Toadthemushroom said:
Well, there are Xbox 360 launch games playable on Xbox One today, 12 years later, and purchaseable on the Microsoft Store, with Xbox Live functionality intact.

You can even buy a digital download card for 2005's Kameo, with Xbox One branding, in certain retail stores.
Click to expand...

In general I think that MS has done a decent job of this given the way consoles have worked before now, but everyone should expect more from backwards compatibility than select titles when it comes to the future.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Lkr said:
Bioshock was purged years ago iirc.
Do you also not buy any more sony products because none of the $60 full price games you bought on PS3 don't run on PS4?
Click to expand...
However Sony ensures that if I update my PS3 to latest firmware I can still run my PS1 games and PS2 classics. If I update my 3DS to latest firmware I can still run any 3DS games still. I can run majority of old games on Windows 10 still. It may be with VMs, mods, etc.. but solutions are there.

It is frankly dumb to blame developers for not updating 6-7 year old games. That's not financially reasonable. However Apple could have had a 32-bit sandbox for the apps.

Security and Storage arguments are spurious. The reality is Apple never gave a flying fuck about breaking backward compatibility and considering this is a completely closed environment that's bullshit as there are no workarounds.

Oh, and not updating is not really an option considering that Apple will not produce security updates for 10.3.x for long past 11 release.
 
Toadthemushroom

Toadthemushroom

Member
Tain said:
In general I think that MS has done a decent job of this given the way consoles have worked before now, but everyone should expect more from backwards compatibility than select titles when it comes to the future.
Click to expand...

Well when it comes to mobile, it's pretty telling that Dodonpachi Maximum lasted about six months before it wasn't supported by new Windows Phones or new versions of the OS, versus however long it's been available on iOS now (4 years???)

Anyway, agreed on both accounts.
 
F

family_guy

Member
Fardeen said:
Dont blame apple, blame the devs who didn't update their apps
Click to expand...

Let's say you bought an amazing game/app, but the devs went under. The majority of the time I'm still okay to use it on Windows even if it's no longer supported, but in this case Apple gives you the finger, even after they got a 30% cut of your money.
 
L

linkboy

Member
erawsd said:
I made my peace with the idea that I wouldn't keep my games forever; whether thats mobile, console, or PC.

The things I'm curious about is... how easy is it to maintain an older iOS device?

1. If I ever need to reinstall legacy firmware, is that possible these days? I know at one time the device had to "phone home" and get a signature from Apple, but Apple stopped signing anything that wasnt the newest firmware a device could run.
Click to expand...

You're always able to restore to the last version of iOS that is supported by your device if you need to restore a device.
 
edgefusion

edgefusion

Member
Fardeen said:
Dont blame apple, blame the devs who didn't update their apps
Click to expand...

Yeah, the onus here is squarely on the devs who sold apps then abandoned them once they got their cash. Re-compiling for 64-bit is not an extensive task and they've had over 4 years warning.
 
M

Mister_Ruck

Member
Dunno why some people are so outraged and surprised by this. We've known about it for years, not to mention this is the exact same thing that happens to video game consoles except in this case devs were given the ability to ensure backwards compatibility and didn't.

You can't expect Apple to ensure maximum compatibility to the detriment of future performance forever. Devs were warned and so were you. People shouting "but I can still play old Windows games!" are not thinking about how tons of legacy code is part of why Windows is such a fucking mess. Not to mention any true "old" games are being emulated in dosbox or something else.
 
R

Remembrance

Member
The app developers who so fastidiously update their apps to take advantage of new features are mostly finding new ways to waste my phone's memory and battery life. Whatever new performance benefits the last several versions of iOS introduced on paper are completely eaten up by modern app and mobile website bloat.

I would much rather use an app that never updates than an app that updates every week.
 
E

epmode

Member
I wish I could say I was shocked by everyone supporting Apple's awful practices with legacy app support but I'm not.

I don't care when Apple warned about this switch. Patching games costs money and it shouldn't be up to the developer to account for Apple's future business decisions.

But whatever, that's why I continue to stick with platforms like the PC.
 
Ovek

Ovek

7Member7
If the developer can't be arsed opening the original xcode project, change the architectures build setting and recompile it blame them not Apple.
 
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