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shinobi602 · Jul 22, 2015

Pretty fascinating stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowQond7_UE

What may be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham. Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence. The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century. The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice". The manuscript had been kept with a collection of other Middle Eastern books and documents, without being identified as one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the world.

When a PhD researcher, Alba Fedeli, looked more closely at these pages it was decided to carry out a radiocarbon dating test and the results were "startling". The university's director of special collections, Susan Worrall, said researchers had not expected "in our wildest dreams" that it would be so old. "Finding out we had one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the whole world has been fantastically exciting."

The tests, carried out by the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, showed that the fragments, written on sheep or goat skin, were among the very oldest surviving texts of the Koran. These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

"They could well take us back to within a few years of the actual founding of Islam," said David Thomas, the university's professor of Christianity and Islam.
"According to Muslim tradition, the Prophet Muhammad received the revelations that form the Koran, the scripture of Islam, between the years 610 and 632, the year of his death."

Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad. "The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says.

Prof Thomas says that some of the passages of the Koran were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves and the shoulder blades of camels - and a final version, collected in book form, was completed in about 650.

He says that "the parts of the Koran that are written on this parchment can, with a degree of confidence, be dated to less than two decades after Muhammad's death".
"These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."

Via BBC

RustyNails · Jul 22, 2015

Read this in the morning. Amazing discovery.

Miles Quaritch · Jul 22, 2015

Saw this earlier, really fascinating.

I wonder what it says.

SymbiantXenos · Jul 22, 2015

Interesting

Smellycat · Jul 22, 2015

Wow! Simply amazing! Mashallah! It shows how the Quran has pretty much never changed (with the exception of addiction of accents)

Sheytan · Jul 22, 2015

From my understanding Muhammad didn't write anything, he recited it and others wrote down what Muhammad said.

TimorousPanda · Jul 22, 2015

That's an awesome find!

Wreav · Jul 22, 2015

Smellycat said:
Wow! Simply amazing! Mashallah! It shows how the Quran has pretty much never changed

Frozenprince · Jul 22, 2015

Sheytan said:
From my understanding Muhammad didn't write anything, he recited it and others wrote down what Muhammad said.

Well yeah all the holy books are like that.

Mecha · Jul 22, 2015

Frozenprince said:
Well yeah all the holy books are like that.

Not all of them, but most Abrahamic religions have texts like that outside of the Baha'i.

Mohonky · Jul 22, 2015

Sheytan said:
From my understanding Muhammad didn't write anything, he recited it and others wrote down what Muhammad said.

Well he couldnt read or write, so yeh.

You'd hope his scribe didnt embellish some details or put anything in there for himself.

MiszMasz · Jul 22, 2015

He says that "the parts of the Koran that are written on this parchment can, with a degree of confidence, be dated to less than two decades after Muhammad's death".
"These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."

I don't quite follow...

Why must they have been? Is he saying that having read them, they are? Or is there something else that qualifies this statement?

Frozenprince · Jul 22, 2015

Mecha said:
Not all of them, but most Abrahamic religions have texts like that outside of the Baha'i.

True but the Baha'i are also pretty nuts about some stuff.

I was speaking traditionally about the Abrahamic texts. The Rig Veda, for instance, certainly wouldn't qualify as that.

Trojita · Jul 22, 2015

MiszMasz said:
I don't quite follow...

Why must they have been? Is he saying that having read them, they are? Or is there something else that qualifies this statement?

They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

Red Mage · Jul 22, 2015

So was this one of the versions that got destroyed?

*edit* From my understanding, Uthman destroyed any versions that differed from his at all.

shinobi602 · Jul 22, 2015

Trojita said:
They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

From what I understand the entire Quran was written down during his lifetime, in bits and pieces, but was compiled as the final form that we see today after his death during the caliph Uthman's reign.

RiZ III · Jul 22, 2015

Mohonky said:
Well he couldnt read or write, so yeh.

You'd hope his scribe didnt embellish some details or put anything in there for himself.

He would have the scribe recite back what he had written. Also it was also memorized by people around him. One of the qualities of the Quran that the Quran itself declares is that it is easy to memorize ("And verily We(God) have made it easy to remember, so is there any who will remember it?"). Even today millions of people memorize the entire Quran and recite parts of it daily. Over the course of ramadan the whole thing is recited during night prayers.

Edit: Also, that handwriting is emaculate OoO I have horrible handwriting and can't draw a straight line to save my life.

DiipuSurotu · Jul 22, 2015

What was it doing in Birmingham?

Agent Gibbs · Jul 22, 2015

DiipuSurotu said:
What was it doing in Birmingham?

It has one of the highest Muslim populations in the UK, so it was likely brought by someone who emigrated to the UK - which begs the question of how in the world did tehy not know the significance of this? its like these people who have amazingly historical pieces in their garages etc and just think its crap
Or alternatively a collector bought it a long long time ago and had it shipped to the UK and its been kept in a family

Those are the two most likely reasons i can think of but man there could be a multitude of theories on how when where and why! Tis extremely interesting

shinobi602 · Jul 22, 2015

DiipuSurotu said:
What was it doing in Birmingham?

Agent Gibbs said:
It has one of the highest Muslim populations in the UK, so it was likely brought by someone who emigrated to the UK - which begs the question of how in the world did tehy not know the significance of this? its like these people who have amazingly historical pieces in their garages etc and just think its crap
Or alternatively a collector bought it a long long time ago and had it shipped to the UK and its been kept in a family

Those are the two most likely reasons i can think of but man there could be a multitude of theories on how when where and why! Tis extremely interesting

According to the university it was brought over in the 1920's during some expedition.

oti · Jul 22, 2015

Miles Quaritch said:
Saw this earlier, really fascinating.

I wonder what it says.

"Anime is for jerks"

MiszMasz · Jul 22, 2015

Trojita said:
They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

I get that but it's this particular bit: "These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today".

I've gone through the article and can't see where he explains how that conclusion has actually been made. Even if it's just a simple case of having read and compared both.

jstripes · Jul 22, 2015

RiZ III said:
He would have the scribe recite back what he had written. Also it was also memorized by people around him. One of the qualities of the Quran that the Quran itself declares is that it is easy to memorize ("And verily We(God) have made it easy to remember, so is there any who will remember it?"). Even today millions of people memorize the entire Quran and recite parts of it daily. Over the course of ramadan the whole thing is recited during night prayers.

Edit: Also, that handwriting is emaculate OoO I have horrible handwriting and can't draw a straight line to save my life.

I can't even remember the entire lyrics to songs.

DOBERMAN INC · Jul 22, 2015

Miles Quaritch said:
Saw this earlier, really fascinating.

I wonder what it says.

"To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental."

Joking aside this is really interesting news.

~Devil Trigger~ · Jul 22, 2015

Rakim wrote all those rhymes

genjiZERO · Jul 22, 2015

super cool

Se7enSword · Jul 22, 2015

Trojita said:
They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

The process taken to document the quran was extremely rigorous and extraordinarily done for that time. There were many tests done, you may not agree to it, but it is what Muhammad (SAW) conveyed.

Hari Seldon · Jul 22, 2015

DiipuSurotu said:
What was it doing in Birmingham?

The sun never sets on pilfering everyone's cultural relics!

I was watching a documentary on The Buddha and some old guy form the UK had the equivalent of the nails out of Christ's cross in his pensioner house cause his grandfather "owned" a large estate where relics were found in India and they just pilfered the fuck out of everything.

CTLance · Jul 22, 2015

Amazing.

Kinda makes me wish I could read what it says and comprehend how it is different (or not) compared to the contemporary texts. That has to be such an exciting work.

RustyNails · Jul 22, 2015

Trojita said:
They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

Zaid Ibn Thabit was Muhammad's scribe. He was tasked by Abu Bakr Siddiq to put the Quran in writing after a few Huffaz (memorizers) died in a battle. Zaid himself was a Hafiz as were every companion. The process was extremely rigorous. Prophet Muhammad had Zaid and other Huffaz recite the Quran in its entirety before he died as well.

Speevy · Jul 22, 2015

Miles Quaritch said:
Saw this earlier, really fascinating.

I wonder what it says.

"Whatever you do, don't hurt anyone over the following text. I cannot stress this enough."

Ikael · Jul 22, 2015

This is so cool. It will be fascinating to see the how much similar it is to the modern text in order to determine the degree of fidelity of the Quran's transmission, which is suppousedly one of the most "true to form" holy text there is. This is an awesome discovery!

Walpurgis · Jul 22, 2015

Incredible. The handwriting looks much simpler than the modern Quran but I can't read it at all. I can only recognise the letters.

GodParticle · Jul 22, 2015

I've translated. It says, "top secret: burn after reading"

braves01 · Jul 22, 2015

I wonder if someone's going to try to steal it now or more likely demand its return.

Se7enSword · Jul 22, 2015

GodParticle said:
I've translated. It says, "top secret: burn after reading"

Good thing you're not a paid translator then.

braves01 said:
I wonder if someone's going to try to steal it now or more likely demand its return.

Why would anyone steal it? I could see a demand to return, but the possibility of it is quite remote.

Walpurgis · Jul 22, 2015

braves01 said:
I wonder if someone's going to try to steal it now or more likely demand its return.

ISIS will probably try to burn it.

victreeb3l · Jul 22, 2015

Amazing discovery. I love how the text has like a gradient with different colors. Gives it a really majestic feel.

Frustrated_me · Jul 22, 2015

Smellycat said:
Wow! Simply amazing! Mashallah! It shows how the Quran has pretty much never changed (with the exception of addiction of accents)

Not sure if it not changing is a good thing tbh.

John Kowalski · Jul 22, 2015

World's oldest Quran fragments found

What may be the world's oldest fragments

Objection! Shinobi602 has clearly twisted the reported facts!

Smellycat · Jul 22, 2015

Trojita said:
They want to know if the Quran of today mirrors what was first written.

The main problem is that there is no proof that this was exactly what Mohammad said. Most Academics agree that The Quran wasn't written until after his death. Possibly 20+ years after. Between that time everything Mohammad was saying and had said was being kept by oral tradition (which is very inaccurate over time).

As others mentioned, the process of writing the Quran down was very meticulous. Also, you have to realize that Muslims pray at least 5 times a day, and they have to recite chapters of the Quran while doing so. So, just imagine how many times the Quran was recited over and over and over.

shinobi602 · Jul 22, 2015

Ikael said:
This is so cool. It will be fascinating to see the how much similar it is to the modern text in order to determine the degree of fidelity of the Quran's transmission, which is suppousedly one of the most "true to form" holy text there is. This is an awesome discovery!

A friend of mine is Muslim and told me he recognized the text and what chapters they're from right away. Arabic was hard to read but he knew from what he reads today. Really neat.

braves01 · Jul 22, 2015

Se7enSword said:
Why would anyone steal it? I could see a demand to return, but the possibility of it is quite remote.

Idk, some Muslim group thinks it improper for a heathen Brit museum to be safeguarding such a holy document from when Mohammed was alive? I've been watching heist movies recently

Sober · Jul 22, 2015

Walpurgis said:
ISIS will probably try to burn it.

Guess they'll have to sail across the channel first :lol

EGOMON · Jul 22, 2015

Amazing!
That verse is of the throne, from Suret Al-Baqarah
آية الكرسي من سورة البقرة

Se7enSword · Jul 22, 2015

braves01 said:
Idk, some Muslim group thinks it improper for a heathen Brit museum to be safeguarding such a holy document from when Mohammed was alive? I've been watching heist movies recently

Haha I see.

Well, if India still can't get the kohinoor diamonds, then I don't think whoever wants to claim custody of it will have a good chance.

Darkologia said:
Amazing!
That verse is آية الكرسي من سورة البقرة

Yes, one of the most beautiful verse.

RustyNails · Jul 22, 2015

Hari Seldon said:
The sun never sets on pilfering everyone's cultural relics!

I was watching a documentary on The Buddha and some old guy form the UK had the equivalent of the nails out of Christ's cross in his pensioner house cause his grandfather "owned" a large estate where relics were found in India and they just pilfered the fuck out of everything.

Britain never stops untill it steals cultural relics from every country known to man.

Bremsstrahlung · Jul 22, 2015

This is cool. But did nobody bother to read it all this time or something?

The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century. The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice". The manuscript had been kept with a collection of other Middle Eastern books and documents, without being identified as one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the world.

EGOMON · Jul 22, 2015

Ikael said:
This is so cool. It will be fascinating to see the how much similar it is to the modern text in order to determine the degree of fidelity of the Quran's transmission, which is suppousedly one of the most "true to form" holy text there is. This is an awesome discovery!

CTLance said:
Amazing.

Kinda makes me wish I could read what it says and comprehend how it is different (or not) compared to the contemporary texts. That has to be such an exciting work.

From what I could read on that picture it is exactly the same wording in our modern Quran

RiZ III · Jul 22, 2015

Can any of you tell which Surah the text is? My Arabic reading skills are too poor to read that.

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World's oldest Quran fragments found; dating back to the founding of Islam

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