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Super Mario Maker: Unlocking everything from the start was a bad choice

correojon

Member
We´ve spent some time with Super Mario Maker and there´s quite the number of user levels out there already. From what I´ve seen they usually fall in these categories:

  • Automated levels: These use lots of different elements creatively.
  • Classic levels: These don´t use many different elements, but are used in interesting ways.
  • Gimmick levels: These are usually short levels consisting of one challenge that relies on an original idea and just focus on that, so they use few elements as well.
  • Random chaos: These are levels which feature one instance of every element in unorganized, not creative ways, or a thousand instances of the most complex elements carefully placed around the stage in a barf pattern.

Unfortunately, 90% of the current levels fall in the Random Chaos category. These levels wouldn´t have been possible if the elements remained locked for days as Nintendo´s original plan suggested. At the same time, Classic levels and Gimmick levels would still have been possible. The only real loss would´ve been the automated levels, which frankly I think that once the novelty wears off will stop being so popular in favor of classic and gimmick levels. Don´t get me wrong, I really appreciate the work and imagination behind a good automated level, but once you´ve seen 3 or 4 of them you just want to pick up the controller and play a level yourself.

The Random Chaos category would´ve been minimized and maybe some of those creators, when forced to work with a limited toolset, would have thought things twice when publishing their levels and unconsciously learnt somethings about level design in the process.


The original position of gradually unlocking all elements through 9 days was met with frontal opposition, to the point it was removed from the final release, but after seeing how things have turned out, has anyone of you changed your stance about this?
And the opposite: if you supported the original decission of 9 days to unlock everything, have you changed your mind after spending some time with the game?

In my case, I vouched for the 9 day lockdown and still think it was a good idea. I´ve been unlocking things at a much faster rate than I can make levels to use them, so them being locked for a few days wouldn´t have really bothered me.



Take topic to another castle if not relevant.
 

Platy

Member
This article is a much better way to explain why random chaos sux

http://boingboing.net/2015/09/14/super-mario-maker-levels.html

In poetic terms, Mario Maker is an exercise in free verse, and with almost nothing to constrain you, it's tempting to dump as many bells and whistles as you can on to the page. But try something more like haiku instead: limit yourself to only a small number of items, enemies and ideas, and try to make something elegant within those constraints. If all you want to do is mess around, then none of this really matters. But if you want to make the kind of level that will win the hearts of the Miiverse, then resist the siren song of overkill, start simple, learn the basics—and then get creative.
 

theaface

Member
The 9 day lock would've just delayed the inevitable. Also, some of the tools available to you on later days are really important/useful and shouldn't have been held back - e.g. the ability to see Mario's jump trajectory or the ability to use pipes to access sub areas.
 

Avallon

Member
You are literally complaining about too much freedom in Mario Maker.

EBC89mW.gif
 

tmarg

Member
It was something that pretty obviously a good idea all along. The unlocks should have been tied to something other than time though, stars or something.
 

ramparter

Banned
I don't think it would have helped much. People love their ideas. They think it's the best idea ever. Yesterday someone send me a level, he thought it was clever. It wasn't.
 
The problem ist that it would require internet connection, because otherwise you could just cheat by setting the system time.
 

tmarg

Member
The problem ist that it would require internet connection, because otherwise you could just cheat by setting the system time.

The game already basically requires an internet connection. It's not really worth it without being able to share levels.
 
I was completely fine with the daily unlock system but it honestly wouldn't have helped much regarding the quality of people's creations. I LOVE Super Mario Maker but 99% of levels I've played have been complete trash. The complete lack of quality has strongly inspired me to work hard at creating fun, traditional Mario stages.
 
Would have happened either way. There would have been 9 days of terrible bare levels until an explosion of random chaos. Eventually they will fall back and the better levels will rise to the top. It's how all UGC games go. Nothing different about Mario Maker
 

Zemm

Member
It wouldn't have made a tiny bit of difference. Creator type games will always have 99% of the created levels be shit. The important part is how they showcase the 1% that are good.
 

tmarg

Member
I was completely fine with the daily unlock system but it honestly wouldn't have helped much regarding the quality of people's creations. I LOVE Super Mario Maker but 99% of levels I've played have been complete trash. The complete lack of quality has strongly inspired me to work hard at creating fun, traditional Mario stages.

Yeah, the good news is that a lot of the complete trash will likely go away as that type of player gets bored. I am worried that some of the kaizo bullshit levels will stick around (invisible blocks knocking you in pits and whatnot), but those should be easy enough to skip eventually.
 

cireza

Member
Of course that 99% of the levels are going to be trash. I maybe played only one or two stages that felt like "OK" Mario stages.
 
Wouldn't matter. Lots of the dumb as fuck and most "chaotic" levels involve the spring regardless, one of the very first items to unlock. And even if that were moved to last, it would still just be delaying the inevitable and would change nothing in the long run regardless.
 
what do you expect? little kids and the like are buying this game, of course they're gonna come up with dumb stuff and not mario level masterpieces.
 

Joni

Member
90% of everything is crap. Everything. It would always have happened, you'd just be delaying the good levels.
 

PixelPeZ

Member
Everything isn't really unlocked from the start, though. You need to mess around the creator for quite a while to get everything. Most of those bad levels are just... made by people who aren't that good.
 

sonto340

Member
It wouldn't have stopped the random "I PUT WINGS ON A KOOPA ABD MADE IT BIG ALSO THERES 400 PF THEM AND THREE BOWSERS ON TOP OF EACH OTHER"
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
When I played the press version, it was obvious to me that the unlock system may not have been the most elegant ever, but it was important to make people learn to use the elements for good level design. Disregarding those damn automated levels, the level selection in the press version was a lot better than in the final version, which suggests to me that it was not a good decision to patch it out.
 

Ferrio

Banned
When I played the press version, it was obvious to me that the unlock system may not have been the most elegant ever, but it was important to make people learn to use the elements for good level design. Disregarding those damn automated levels, the level selection in the press version was a lot better than in the final version, which suggests to me that it was not a good decision to patch it out.

Restricted tools wasn't going to help the average user learn good level design. You were going to get the same nonsense just a lot less diverse.
 
Even if it took awhile to unlock, you'd still end up with most people publishing tons of garbage. It's just the nature of user generated content games like this. All you can do is hope ratings work out, but people rate the same way they create.
 

MLH

Member
I disagree, I try to make my levels as close to a traditional Nintendo level as possible, using only a few assets and sticking to a theme, but I was put off when I couldn't use certain enemies of objects to fulfil my ideas.
But you are right that a lot of the levels are random chaos.

I feel, in general, the game was handled quite poorly, they should have learned from the Art Academy games with two options to create; a tutorial mode & a free make mode.
Tutorial mode would have offered a limited tool set and offered suggestions and taught players how to make full use of the tools available, growing in size as the player completed each tutorial. Whereas free-make mode, as the name suggests, would allow the player to use everything without guidance.
 
I think the reason you see all of these auto levels is that the top level is that don't touch anything level. So, what's everyone going to do to try and get everyone to star their level? Try to copy the #1 level. People are always fishing for likes, yeahs, up votes, favorites, and retweets.
 

DiGiKerot

Member
I'm not getting this argument. So in 9 days, random chaos wouldn't happen?

I think the point is that, by limiting what you have access to for a period, it forces the user to think about how they can do something interesting with what they have access to, the idea being that by the time they have access to everything they will have actually learnt something about level design.

Whether that would actually work or not, *shrug*
 
this is how all UGC games are, it's mostly shit with a couple diamonds in the rough

the 9 day wait wouldn't have done anything but delay it
 

correojon

Member
90% of everything is crap. Everything. It would always have happened, you'd just be delaying the good levels.
Good levels don´t require a lot of different elements, take a look at any Mario game and you´ll see that each level usually contains just or 5 different elements and revolves around them.
Good creators would´ve still been able to create good levels.

Would have happened either way. There would have been 9 days of terrible bare levels until an explosion of random chaos. Eventually they will fall back and the better levels will rise to the top. It's how all UGC games go.
Nothing different about Mario Maker
Again, any "real" Mario level doesn´t need lots of different elements, just a handful of them. It´s how you use them that counts.
There wouldn´t have been an explosion because things would´ve unlocked gradually. Everyone would have had to rethink "how can I use this in a different way to what I´ve been doing the past days?". Also, every day users would be more excited about the new stuff and focus on those elements, thus reducing the number of elements in every level and somehow reducing a bit the chaos. By day 9 some may have become aware of this and start applying this concept consciously to their creations.


A lot of people are saying things like "delaying the inevitable", "it´s how it goes in UGC games", but well, we agree on something: there´s a problem in UGC with quality. If there´s a problem and you always apply the same procedure you won´t ever solve that problem. This was a new thing to try that may have worked.
 

Gaogaogao

Member
I'm not getting this argument. So in 9 days, random chaos wouldn't happen?

not as much, because there would be more simple levels that make sense. not everyone would start at the same time, and more people would use the parts they are more comfortable with/ have more experience with.
 

DryvBy

Member
I think the point is that, by limiting what you have access to for a period, it forces the user to think about how they can do something interesting with what they have access to, the idea being that by the time they have access to everything they will have actually learnt something about level design.

Whether that would actually work or not, *shrug*

But once they unlock everything, what's going to stop the chaos. I think the people creating chaos levels would just create chaos levels once they have enough material to do so.

The day 1 & 2 stuff is so limited, I wouldn't have even bothered playing until day 9.

Super Mario Maker should have been knocked hard for locking content and treating their customers like children. The voting system should be enough to keep chaos out of the way for most users.
 

tanuki

Member
Random chaos would've happened regardless. It just would've been levels day one with hundreds of koopas and goombas everywhere instead of all the other enemies and traps. Pretty much 99% of everyone is going to have no idea about level design. I mean, even my first few hours with game is me basically having no idea where to begin. I'm slowly getting the hang of it.

Once the majority of people get bored of making levels, you're just going to be left with people who really care about the craft. And that's when the game is going to reveal how amazing it is.

I have so much more respect for Nintendo's level designers now though. What they did with the SMB series seems even more incredible now.

I have to say though, I'm really enjoying some of the crazy Kaizo-type levels that have been appearing from (mostly) Japanese creators.
 
The 9 day lock would've just delayed the inevitable. Also, some of the tools available to you on later days are really important/useful and shouldn't have been held back - e.g. the ability to see Mario's jump trajectory or the ability to use pipes to access sub areas.
I agree here. These have killed my motivation somewhat as the two examples you give are really essential tools for making good levels. 100 Mario mode has also killed it as I feel like I'm wading through shit (expert being practically unplayable).

Even the "fast" unlock doesn't help as even trying the spam objects and copy paste like mad doesn't seem to ever make the truck arrive early for me.
 

Zomba13

Member
I agree here. These have killed my motivation somewhat as the two examples you give are really essential tools for making good levels. 100 Mario mode has also killed it as I feel like I'm wading through shit (expert being practically unplayable).

Even the "fast" unlock doesn't help as even trying the spam objects and copy paste like mad doesn't seem to ever make the truck arrive early for me.

You need to make sure you've used every item and checked out every tileset and then place a bunch of blocks then you'll get the notice, then place a bunch more blocks and the next shipment will come then rinse and repeat. It takes a while but better to do it while half watching a movie than playing 15 minutes or so every day for 9 days.
 

ramparter

Banned
The complete lack of quality has strongly inspired me to work hard at creating fun, traditional Mario stages.
This. I'm tired of all this gimmicks, auto run, press left, don't move, etc. on't want to offend anyone, it's just not my type.

Give me classic Mario levels any day. We need some tagging.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
People will get it out of their system. There's only so many throw everything at the screen levels someone can make before they get bored.
 
Poor design is poor design whether creators use a limited toolset or a complete one. I don't believe the locked tools would improve level quality but it would stifle people creativity for an unnecessary time.

I've already started some designs and had to put them on hold because the desired element is not unlocked yet.
 

Alfredo

Member
Most of the "random chaos" levels are just people spamming giant enemies everywhere, which is totally possible with Day 1 tools. People aren't spamming the one way walls and stuff like that that are Day 9 unlocks.

Mario Maker would be filled with garbage levels no matter what. Nintendo just needs a good way to surface good levels and bury the bad.

Starring levels seems like a good idea for this, but I really want the "top courses" to be cycled more regularly so I don't have to see the same automatic Mario level at number one every day.

I wish there was a way to "dislike" levels, reducing the chance of them showing up in the 100 Mario challenge. I want to believe that skipping a course does something like that.
 
I try to keep my levels fair. So I choose one or two 'gimmick' items and use those as the focus of the level. Enemy spam and item spam just makes for annoying gameplay.
 

Burai

shitonmychest57
The 100 Mario Challenge proves this to be crap. The number of levels called "Test 1" with the original toolset just spammed everywhere that I've encountered is ridiculous.

Nintendo really need to get on top of curation because this game has no long-term future if the shit keeps rising to the top.
 
Good levels don´t require a lot of different elements, take a look at any Mario game and you´ll see that each level usually contains just or 5 different elements and revolves around them.
Good creators would´ve still been able to create good levels.


Again, any "real" Mario level doesn´t need lots of different elements, just a handful of them. It´s how you use them that counts.
There wouldn´t have been an explosion because things would´ve unlocked gradually. Everyone would have had to rethink "how can I use this in a different way to what I´ve been doing the past days?". Also, every day users would be more excited about the new stuff and focus on those elements, thus reducing the number of elements in every level and somehow reducing a bit the chaos. By day 9 some may have become aware of this and start applying this concept consciously to their creations.


A lot of people are saying things like "delaying the inevitable", "it´s how it goes in UGC games", but well, we agree on something: there´s a problem in UGC with quality. If there´s a problem and you always apply the same procedure you won´t ever solve that problem. This was a new thing to try that may have worked.

You're really overselling the audience for these games. Most of them don't give two hoots about what makes great level design. They just want to "make a mario level" and share it to their friends. There's no problem with UGC games, the problem lies in the fact a very large number of the audience do not understand good level design nor spatial awareness to create a good level. Some people will still become aware of the "rules" in place to create a good Mario level, many will not. This would happen with the 9 days grace period or not. Level design is bloody hard, not everyone gets it and most people will create a crappy level and think "dang that's actually pretty good!" whereas you may think it's crap. Kids especially playing it just want to make something "cool"
 

correojon

Member
The 100 Mario Challenge proves this to be crap. The number of levels called "Test 1" with the original toolset just spammed everywhere that I've encountered is ridiculous.
I really don´t see the relation between the first attempts of people (probably just playing around to see how the editor works) being crap and anything else that is been discussed here.


You're really overselling the audience for these games. Most of them don't give two hoots about what makes great level design. They just want to "make a mario level" and share it to their friends. There's no problem with UGC games, the problem lies in the fact a very large number of the audience do not understand good level design nor spatial awareness to create a good level. Some people will still become aware of the "rules" in place to create a good Mario level, many will not. This would happen with the 9 days grace period or not. Level design is bloody hard, not everyone gets it and most people will create a crappy level and think "dang that's actually pretty good!" whereas you may think it's crap. Kids especially playing it just want to make something "cool"
Let´s not forget that SMM is a game itself and as a game (specially a Nintendo one) it must try to teach the player how to play it. The problem here is that we have 2 layers of knowledge to be taught: one that refers to the instantly evident layer (the editor) and another that refers to a more complex, abstract one (level design basics). The second one has been neglected and I see that as a big design failure on Nintendo´s part. Will this keep people from enjoying the game? No, but they would surely enjoy it much more with some more knowledge on what they´re doing.
 

ffdgh

Member
Lets be honest. The nine day drip feed would have had the same random chaos result except watered down.
 

fernoca

Member
Keep in mind that it wasn't removed completely.

A patch was released and Nintendo said nothing about it, noone knew what it had until it "hit the internet". It was basically to please a vocal group on the internet and a good chunk of this same vocal group is the one rushing to unlock things to make some really lame levels.
 
Let´s not forget that SMM is a game itself and as a game (specially a Nintendo one) it must try to teach the player how to play it. The problem here is that we have 2 layers of knowledge to be taught: one that refers to the instantly evident layer (the editor) and another that refers to a more complex, abstract one (level design basics). The second one has been neglected and I see that as a big design failure on Nintendo´s part. Will this keep people from enjoying the game? No, but they would surely enjoy it much more with some more knowledge on what they´re doing.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with a 9 day waiting period? The teaching would still be the same, but more drawn out.
 
Like any other creative sandbox experience, the shit tier designs will sink to the bottom. This organized utopia only existed in Nintendo and a few fans' minds. This is the price of giving the players creative freedom, you have to stomach that many people just aren't very creative.
 
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